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Nvidia Says PS4 Involvement Wasn't Worth the Cost

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March 15, 2013 4:08:02 PM

While on one hand these claims have some merit, seeing as how there are definetly bulk deals and incentives that need to be in place so consoles can be price competitive. On the other Nvidia doesn't have a CPU at all, and if you can negotiate a deal with a CPU/GPU developer in one die at the same time It keeps everything in check.

One chip yield won't outweigh the other, you pay everything to one business, you implement both on a simplified mobo with less of a heat footprint and perhaps slimming down the console itself. The list goes on with benefits that come with going with AMD. And also the fact that AMD is willing to haggle more more than Nvidia & Intel
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29
March 15, 2013 4:10:48 PM

AMD needs all it can get. Nvidia will hopefully use this to get better GPUs.
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10
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March 15, 2013 4:17:17 PM

No, actually AMD did the best job inventing the APU with such a massive graphics power and getting it developed along generations. What nVidia came with?
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24
March 15, 2013 4:38:23 PM

Considering a lot more games will be AMD (GPU/CPU) optimized, I think Nvidia has it wrong.
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35
March 15, 2013 4:40:44 PM

I see Nvidia Shield as a response to console makers shunning nvidia from the market, not what nvidia claims being too busy. Besides, how can Nvidia Shield do better than what PS Vita can't. And Nvidia is not know for competitive pricing.
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9
March 15, 2013 4:42:52 PM

Since they are planning to move to console market also with the Project Shield, they might thinking that giving tech and developing for a competitor wouldn't end well.
Like Apple and Samsung which they are suing each other every hour that passes...
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2
March 15, 2013 4:43:12 PM

I think both NVidia and Intel have both just realized how important it is to develop a system with balanced CPU and Graphics potential. Nvida is graphics, Intel is CPU, so AMD's setup works in wider range of scenario's including consoles. Now (hopefully) they're better off supplying all the muscle for next-gen consoles.
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18
March 15, 2013 4:44:04 PM

"... and we came to the conclusion that we did'nt want to do the business at the price those guys were willing to pay..."

It means that - "We did not won the project because PS4 wants to have a chip that is cheaper cost..."


"We're building a whole bunch of stuff, and we had to look at console business as an opportunity cost," - Tony Tamasi

"... and Project Shield is not a console, by the way...its a local cloud gaming..."
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4
March 15, 2013 4:45:54 PM

hagjohnConsidering a lot more games will be AMD (GPU/CPU) optimized, I think Nvidia has it wrong.

This doesn't mean the games will be better for AMD hardware. A good example, Saints Row 3 which was in one way or another meant to have been focused more towards AMD hardware.

Yet from my personal experience, using a HD7850 with Catalyst 12.8 and 13.1, it suffers low framerates when set to ultra. (Drops to 30fps and lingers there at 1920x1080 with constant explosions).

Jumping to an Nvidia 680 with 304 drivers, it works smoothly and lingers at 60fps at 1080p. I know the difference in hardware performance is there, but I would have thought the AMD cards would have greatly benefited from the devs working with AMD. This wasn't the case, and in forums there are even AMD specific problems with the game.
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-16
March 15, 2013 4:47:30 PM

ilysamlNo, actually AMD did the best job inventing the APU with such a massive graphics power and getting it developed along generations. What nVidia came with?

AMD aimed for desktop and laptop space, nvidia's current project is on mobile(Nvidia Shield and Tegra4). those two projects are probably what is keeping nvidia payign close attention to other topics at the moment. their opportunity cost trying to get a sony bid is not worth dropping the other projects on
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-4
March 15, 2013 5:03:09 PM

Umm, don't really agree with nVidia. Now many games are going to run optimally on AMD hardware, especially GPGPU related things like physics calculations, which will hurt PhysX as a selling point.
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13
March 15, 2013 5:08:53 PM

Im not interested in cloud gaming .. its bad enough that you need an always on connection but when you throw in the latenancy for the games and the fact that it would be a niche market due to the lack of internet connectivity speeds for various locations... its not like its going to do much better then most of the other current cloud gaming services .. ehh.. AMD really seems to have put its self in a good position as long as they can provide on there end ..
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18
March 15, 2013 5:21:45 PM

Remember, ATI was only able to break into the industry because they acquired a GPU company that was building the GPU for the GameCube.

There was alot of concern among ATI investors that it would sink the company, because history has shown there is no profit in it. (console manufacturers like to sell consoles for a loss, and as such will F you in the butt as soon as it is convenient.)
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-5
March 15, 2013 5:21:57 PM

vaughn2k"... and we came to the conclusion that we did'nt want to do the business at the price those guys were willing to pay..."It means that - "We did not won the project because PS4 wants to have a chip that is cheaper cost"


Not quite, what it's really saying is: "we wouldn't make the profit that we think we should make to have the console market be worth our while to get involved with."
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2
March 15, 2013 5:26:06 PM

Like others have said, there is a lot to be said for HSA style hardware. Going with nVidia over AMD would have meant working with a second company on a CPU, and all three companies having to pass engineering prototypes back and forth to work out all the kinks in the designs. It adds extra overhead to a process that already has a lot riding on it. The only other game in town for an x86 architecture on par with AMD is Intel, and none of the console makers can afford Intel's prices. AMD has the APU expertise to make an excellent, yet low-cost complete architecture.

nVidia is also working on four projects. GRID, Shield, Tegra 4, and Geforce 8. I would say they have their hands full with that.
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4
March 15, 2013 5:47:30 PM

Im just hoping all the lame half done console ports are better then the recent ones
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0
March 15, 2013 6:01:44 PM

Sorry but Nvidia was not invited back, and that is the real reason! Nvidia cannot provide an X86+GPU based SOC like AMD can. This sounds like typical Nvidia butthurt!
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15
March 15, 2013 6:06:11 PM

myromance123This doesn't mean the games will be better for AMD hardware. A good example, Saints Row 3 which was in one way or another meant to have been focused more towards AMD hardware.Yet from my personal experience, using a HD7850 with Catalyst 12.8 and 13.1, it suffers low framerates when set to ultra. (Drops to 30fps and lingers there at 1920x1080 with constant explosions). Jumping to an Nvidia 680 with 304 drivers, it works smoothly and lingers at 60fps at 1080p. I know the difference in hardware performance is there, but I would have thought the AMD cards would have greatly benefited from the devs working with AMD. This wasn't the case, and in forums there are even AMD specific problems with the game.



Absolutely games will be more optimized for AMD hardware no doubt, the reason behind that is devs will want to harness all that power AMD hardware can create and translate that into games obviously. Now that its X86 the porting from console to PC is more straight forward than ever. TWIMTB titles 99% of the time performance better on Nvidia based hardware for example. You cannot lok at games like Saints Row and make a comparison since that is a PC game
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11
March 15, 2013 6:10:40 PM

Certainly sounds like excuses being made for not being chosen to provide hardware... the long and the short of it is that AMD can provide a better combination of hardware in a small package than NV can provide with a T/P processor.

" "I'm sure there was a negotiation that went on, and we came to the conclusion that we didn't want to do the business at the price those guys were willing to pay," Tamasi said. "

"I'm sure there was a negotiation..." -- doesn't sound very confident... If you are a Senior VP at Nvidia, you would have known if there was a negotiation... none of this "I'm sure.." business. Leads me to believe they were not a major consideration.
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23
March 15, 2013 6:27:59 PM

dudewitbowAMD aimed for desktop and laptop space, nvidia's current project is on mobile(Nvidia Shield and Tegra4). those two projects are probably what is keeping nvidia payign close attention to other topics at the moment. their opportunity cost trying to get a sony bid is not worth dropping the other projects on

nvidia just justifying their sharing loss in the upcoming consoles, Sony and Microsoft have chosen AMD for their CPU&GPU integrity power on a single die, a solution which isn't offered by Intel nor nVidia.
on the other hand, I have read that there's no one adopting their Tegra 4, and the Project Shield isn't expected to be a big "hit" in the market.
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24
March 15, 2013 6:51:01 PM

The reason NVIDIA is making lame excuses is they don't have a processor, so couldn't hope to match AMD in price at the same performance.

You don't have a certain number of engineers, unless you don't have a HR department. You can actually hire people if your business grows, so your number can go up. Obviously, there's some a learning curve, but you generally have a decent amount of time with these things.

NVIDIA lost because they couldn't do it cost-effectively, not because they didn't want it. Getting consoles working with your technology can only help ports to PCs. Plus, more development tools for using the GPU in more types of apps.

This is just NVIDIA being NVIDIA. Lame, deficient, and making excuses.
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18
Anonymous
March 15, 2013 6:55:35 PM

Stick with a real true gaming platform Nvidia, the PC. Yeh there is a bunch of money to be made from consoles, cause its the lowest denominator when it comes to affordable gaming. Let AMD have it this round. Make better faster GPUs for the PC that continue to dominate any and all outdated console concepts.
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-15
March 15, 2013 6:58:06 PM

Regardless, while I'm not a die-hard fan of Nvidia or AMD.. I would hope AMD can make a good profit out of this to keep R&D to keep nVidia/intel on their toes with their outrageous prices.
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21
March 15, 2013 7:00:48 PM

tegra is CPU.. although not x86. people here are d***.
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-18
March 15, 2013 7:10:44 PM

LOL! hahhahha NVIDIA, maybe your chip is too pricey for these console maker to afford. Of course they would want to use a decent chip that will do the job and will cost almost nothing.
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-4
March 15, 2013 7:11:28 PM

wh3resmycartegra is CPU.. although not x86. people here are d***.




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28
March 15, 2013 7:16:19 PM

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-12
March 15, 2013 7:35:09 PM

Yeah you can see how AMD could easily offer a better GPU/CPU combo. If Sony had gone with Nvidia they STILL would have needed to deal with another company for the CPU (Intel, AMD or IBM). Now you just have ONE deal, and ONE supplier.
I wonder with the 8 GB of RAM on the PS4 if we will finally see Win x64 games that use >2 GB of RAM.
Score
3
March 15, 2013 7:54:34 PM

nitriumYeah you can see how AMD could easily offer a better GPU/CPU combo. If Sony had gone with Nvidia they STILL would have needed to deal with another company for the CPU (Intel, AMD or IBM). Now you just have ONE deal, and ONE supplier.I wonder with the 8 GB of RAM on the PS4 if we will finally see Win x64 games that use >2 GB of RAM.

Its 8gb combined ram, if you look at how much ram your using while gaming then look at how much vram your using on the gpu and combine them that's what its doing. My pc normally uses 6gb combined, obviously depends on the game and background programs though. Would like to know how much sony pay for each apu. prob less than $50, that way we could understand why Nvidia said no, even if they sold millions, its a drop in the ocean compared to there tesla lines profit margins
Score
0
March 15, 2013 8:15:58 PM

myromance123This doesn't mean the games will be better for AMD hardware. A good example, Saints Row 3 which was in one way or another meant to have been focused more towards AMD hardware.Yet from my personal experience, using a HD7850 with Catalyst 12.8 and 13.1, it suffers low framerates when set to ultra. (Drops to 30fps and lingers there at 1920x1080 with constant explosions). Jumping to an Nvidia 680 with 304 drivers, it works smoothly and lingers at 60fps at 1080p. I know the difference in hardware performance is there, but I would have thought the AMD cards would have greatly benefited from the devs working with AMD. This wasn't the case, and in forums there are even AMD specific problems with the game.


The AMD 7850 and Nivida 680 are in two different categories of graphics cards...
The AMD card is a mid-range card and the Nvidia is the flagship high-end card.


Just because a game is optimized for a certain setup, whether its a 'the way its meant to be played" or "gaming evolved" doesn't mean you can expect the optimized game to compare to an notably higher end card.

Get two equally matched cards from both AMD and Nvidia and you would generally see the the gaming evolved branded games typically perform better on AMD and likewise with Nvidia branded "the way its meant to be played" games.


Score
9
March 15, 2013 8:47:01 PM

you just have to admit AMDs APU is a marvelous piece of tech that is extremely convenient for console manufacturers. if you look at the costs of a powerpc cpu(example) and a separate nvidia GPU, youd notice its ALOT cheaper to make both on the same die and by the same provider. its just a whole lot easier to work with an APU, especially with an x86 cpu.

AMD has their foot nice and firm in this gen of gaming consoles, and they NEED to market themselves around this fact in some way. put up a few banners here and there saying something liek "AMD Powering next gen consoles" or something like that. i just hope that amd marketing team has been slapped around enough to get their act together and not make the same mistakes theyve been making these last few years.
Score
15
March 15, 2013 9:09:06 PM

Shame. Nvidia has WAY better Hardware Anti-Aliasing than AMD does by a mile. Would've been nice to see something like SGSSAA or TrSSAA in PS4 games. Guess we'll get stuck with just MSAA and Post-AA solutions.
Score
-14
March 15, 2013 9:11:39 PM

AMD lost 1.18B. NV made ~750mil. Who's making better decisions here?
AMD laid off 1/3 of there workforce in the last ~2 years. NV hired 800.
AMD depends on console's success this year (which are plummeting all around) to make money.
NV decided to get your PC on your TV thus making a console pointless.
Only 2.5% of 1600 developers are planning on making a game for 3DS
only 6.5% for wiiu.
11.5 for the next ps4 & x720.

The rest, all on tablets, phones, or PC. This is the last year of consoles. There won't be another xbox or ps5 after these have terrible sales. Nintendo just cut sales projections of their brand new consoles (wiiu by 17%) and cut software projections from 24mil units to 16mil! HOLY COW that's a huge drop for brand new products. Vita is a total failure because of no dev support and poor sales leading to devs dropping the platform. Shield and steambox will both allow an upgradable TV experience (pc gpu used for shield, change it yearly if you want, and Steambox is upgradable supposedly). Also both platforms are just launch products (ref platforms) as others will be able to put out a shield device or steambox. Say a shield with no touch screen, or a very small one just to launch the game device to tv not much else cutting cost etc...Companies can make their own version of steambox or shield and brand it (clones so to speak). An open platform will beat the stuck in stone consoles and developer support seems to show this. If sales suck on consoles this xmas devs will quickly kill projects.

The assumption that games will be optimized for AMD due to consoles assumes they will actually sell in massive numbers. The fact is they only sell about 35mil/year TOTAL between nin/sony/ms. Phones/tablets/pc's DWARF these numbers and is why game devs are heading there in mass quantities. 350mil PC's sold last year. 900mil tablets/phones. Would you dev for 1.25B devices or 25-35mil consoles sold last year? OpenGL, WebGL, OpenCL and HTML5 will take over this year and next. Directx will be less important and game devs will save a ton of porting money. Get ready for a new era. With tablets already at 2560x1600 (setting this as norm now), I like our chances for better gaming experiences going forward (Intel pushing 4K hard from now forward, along with TV makers). Consoles won't be above 1080p for the next 8-10yrs. Even a tablet will blow by next gen xmas consoles next year, heck probably a phone in 2-3yrs. Consoles are dead, and sales/dev support shows this. You don't have to like the comment, this is just reality based on sales data and developer intentions.
Score
-11
March 15, 2013 9:36:43 PM

Many people think ridiculous things and actually want to believe in conspiracies.

If AMD leaked a fake "paper" specifying that because of console-ports, only APU's will have the proper design/coding to play PC games from mid 2013 foward...

~90% of the posters on here would beliive it. LOL!
Score
-9
March 15, 2013 9:37:59 PM

hastenSo you are confused why a 680 runs that much better than a 7850? What an asinine comparison. Try a 7970 and a GTX 680 and find out which runs better. If AMD influenced it then I would imagine the 7970 edges out at 5-10% gains.I own only Nvidia cards right now so no AMD preference, but that would basically be me comparing my FX 4100(4.5ghz) to my i5 2500k(4ghz daily). C'mon man.


A better comparison would be a stock FX-4100 to such an overclocked i5-2500K. The GTX 680 is about twice as fast as the Radeon 7850 and the difference between the i5-2500K at a similar frequency to the FX-4100 isn't nearly that high.
Score
4
March 15, 2013 9:46:59 PM

Winner: AMD APU custom made for PS4.
Additional Winners: All of us, since AMD competing well means lower prices for us all.
Score
5
March 15, 2013 9:50:02 PM

ilysamlNo, actually AMD did the best job inventing the APU with such a massive graphics power and getting it developed along generations. What nVidia came with?


Tegra. i believe if nvidia able to get X86 license they probably making something similar to APU. but since they can't they look for ARM as an alternative. to be honest i think JHH was nut or joking back then when he says that 'ARM will be our cpu strategy and will always be'.
Score
-2
March 15, 2013 9:52:48 PM

why would they care about consoles when they pretty much have a strangle hold on the mobile market
Score
-5
March 15, 2013 10:10:12 PM

Article"In the end, you only have so many engineers and so much capability, and if you're going to go off and do chips for Sony or Microsoft, then that's probably a chip that you're not doing for some other portion of your business,"


I doubt that was their opinion when Intel stopped them from making chipsets for their processors.

Article"We'll see how that plays out from a business perspective I guess. It's clearly not a technology thing."


Yeah, It was also not a technology thing about PhysX, CUDA, or SLI. AMD had the same capabilities but Nvidia had many games programed to exploit their specific technology. I think Nvidia is making the same mistake that AMD made years ago. I'll enjoy watching AMD rise again and prove to the world that you can play with the big boys, even if you don't have their funding or their fancy tech.
Score
8
March 15, 2013 10:12:10 PM

mr_bonkersShame. Nvidia has WAY better Hardware Anti-Aliasing than AMD does by a mile. Would've been nice to see something like SGSSAA or TrSSAA in PS4 games. Guess we'll get stuck with just MSAA and Post-AA solutions.


Correction, Nvidia enhanced what AMD Invented in the first place. Just like what happened with Eyefinity and Surround.
Score
9
March 15, 2013 10:14:30 PM

bustapryou just have to admit AMDs APU is a marvelous piece of tech that is extremely convenient for console manufacturers. if you look at the costs of a powerpc cpu(example) and a separate nvidia GPU, youd notice its ALOT cheaper to make both on the same die and by the same provider. its just a whole lot easier to work with an APU, especially with an x86 cpu. AMD has their foot nice and firm in this gen of gaming consoles, and they NEED to market themselves around this fact in some way. put up a few banners here and there saying something liek "AMD Powering next gen consoles" or something like that. i just hope that amd marketing team has been slapped around enough to get their act together and not make the same mistakes theyve been making these last few years.


And please no more ocular implants, that was a ridiculous idea.
Score
0
March 15, 2013 10:26:02 PM

suprwhy would they care about consoles when they pretty much have a strangle hold on the mobile market

... Since when?
Score
10
March 16, 2013 12:49:24 AM

myromance123This doesn't mean the games will be better for AMD hardware. A good example, Saints Row 3 which was in one way or another meant to have been focused more towards AMD hardware.Yet from my personal experience, using a HD7850 with Catalyst 12.8 and 13.1, it suffers low framerates when set to ultra. (Drops to 30fps and lingers there at 1920x1080 with constant explosions). Jumping to an Nvidia 680 with 304 drivers, it works smoothly and lingers at 60fps at 1080p. I know the difference in hardware performance is there, but I would have thought the AMD cards would have greatly benefited from the devs working with AMD. This wasn't the case, and in forums there are even AMD specific problems with the game.

The GTX 680 destroys the 7850, that's why (and not knowing that has earned you many downvotes). You have to compare the 680 with a 7970, and those two are basically the same power level, depending on the game. But with the PS4 and Nextbox using AMD x86 hardware? You better BELIEVE PC games will be optimized for AMD far more than Nvidia.
Score
6
March 16, 2013 12:55:43 AM

Lol people saying now games will run on PC amd based systems because console ports will be made for consoles seem to no knowing of console history and how programing work outside of write once run anywhere sort of languages like java. Consoles rarely are similar enough in their implementation of opengl and directX that it translate into anything and at the end of the day it's the skill of the developers that determine the effectiveness of a game engine.

That's cute and all but even if you said was true given history of consoles it means game will be made for an already outdated base architecture that wont translate over to current or newer generations of gpu's.

Nothing replaces good coding...
Score
-4
March 16, 2013 1:32:46 AM

IzzyCraftLol people saying now games will run on PC amd based systems because console ports will be made for consoles seem to no knowing of console history and how programing work outside of write once run anywhere sort of languages like java. Consoles rarely are similar enough in their implementation of opengl and directX that it translate into anything and at the end of the day it's the skill of the developers that determine the effectiveness of a game engine. That's cute and all but even if you said was true given history of consoles it means game will be made for an already outdated base architecture that wont translate over to current or newer generations of gpu's.Nothing replaces good coding...



the only question is, since the apu is being custom made, theres the offshoot chance that AMD will probably slip in the HSA compatibility with the APU to allow devs to push its performance to the limit when the said technology is fully designed. At this point, we cant say anything about the coding, because theres the offshoot chance that new coding will be implemented. The only thing known is that expect to see multi core coding be introduced, being that the custom made APU is 8 cores.(and the fact that AMD is also selling a slimmed down version of the PS4 later for consumers to use)
Score
3
March 16, 2013 1:34:20 AM

edit: slimmed down PS4-like APU for pc users to use*
Score
3
March 16, 2013 1:55:29 AM

Nvidia is supplying chips for at least one console: the ouya. While that's not super exciting, they are betting on arm with the tegra 4, and that's not something I'd bet against.
Score
-1
March 16, 2013 3:53:12 AM

"Having been through the original Xbox and PS3, we understand the economics of [console development] and the tradeoffs."

Translation : "having been through the original xbox and PS3 , we understand now that we are too greedy to trade off short term income for long term company stability"

"In the end, you only have so many engineers and so much capability, and if you're going to go off and do chips for Sony or Microsoft, then that's probably a chip that you're not doing for some other portion of your business,"

Translation: "In the end, you only have so many Dollars, and if you're going to go off and do chips for Sony or Microsoft, then that's probably a lot of money that you're having to divide up."


"And at least in the case of Sony and Nvidia, in terms of PS4, AMD has the business and Nvidia doesn't. We'll see how that plays out from a business perspective I guess. It's clearly not a technology thing."


Translation: "And at least in the case of Sony and Nvidia, in terms of PS4, AMD has better ethics and Nvidia doesn't. We'll see how that plays out from a business perspective I guess. It's clearly not a Money thing."




now that general translation is done , time to read between the lines ... This nvidia guy just dissed AMD's capabilities to delivier solid GPUS with his last statment. Fact is nivida would rather worry about what they are paid that try to develop another low power low cost gpu for a console. so he tacks on a childish insult towards amd over it.

essentially nivida knows they are in danger of becoming a dinosaur unless they change their game plan , basillay they are focusing more on mobile platforms knowing that the age of teh desk top is comign to a close , and being just a GPU vendor will mean extinction once the enitre main stream goes mobile over desktop. Can't say I blame them, but this move could hurt them in the short term on the desk top market that is still currently viable. honestly ask me though the bottom line is nivida already hurt them selves ages ago with thier GPU prices i'm looking at getting new computer , but when i got to shopping video cards i noticed the GF 660 (non ti) runs about 230-250 bucks , yet performs nearer to a radeon 7850 , the radeon 7870 is priced same as the gf 660 but obviously out performs it in all games except physx enabled ones. the GF 660 ti that matches the 7870 is about 50-60 bucks more expensive than the 7870. and with next gen consoles going AMD i see no clear reason Why my next pc should have an nvidia card
Score
3
March 16, 2013 3:56:55 AM

mr_bonkersShame. Nvidia has WAY better Hardware Anti-Aliasing than AMD does by a mile. Would've been nice to see something like SGSSAA or TrSSAA in PS4 games. Guess we'll get stuck with just MSAA and Post-AA solutions.



actullay in several website articles regarding the issue , nearly ever web site found that post processing AA technologies like FXAA actually look better than real time AA sampling , whats more you can combine the 2 and get even better visuals than regular AA alone can get.
Score
2
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