Upgrading APU with a second GPU dilema

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
Hello,

I have a AMD PC with an APU from December, 2012.

I am rather satisfied with the gaming results from it but only with older, already released games. All the new releases force me into playing on Low or Med with a lower resolution than my monitor which is a pain.

I would like to upgrade my graphics card though as its an APU, that would involve replacing the CPU aswell which is 3.4 GHz and in my eyes, very good. I think I have a few solutions to my obstacles and would like to list them so the masses can help me and decide which one to do and answer a few questions.

If you were in my position and were chasing better frames and performance, what would you do?

1) (Low priority)
Buy a new CPU and GPU and sell old APU to help with costs.

AMD FX 8120 Black Edition + AMD Radeon HD 7870 2GB
£121.39 inc. VAT £188.19 inc. VAT


2) (Medium priority)
Buy a double of my current GPU(APU); AMD 7570 and install that into the empty PCI Express slot and crossfire them for double action.


3) (Highest priority)
Buy a specific, more expensive, GPU (AMD Radeon HD 7((8/9))70 2/3GB) and Crossfire it with my APU, set the newer GPU as the main one and the original APU graphic card as the alternative.

AMD Radeon HD 7870 2GB
£188.19 inc. VAT

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: Around September to December (Christmas)

BUDGET RANGE: (Minimum)100-~200/Most likely\300~400(Maximum)

USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Essentially gaming at Med to High/Ultra on games like BF3, Crysis, ARMA 2/3, Saints Row, GTA IV/V, hopefully. I don't want a massively overpowered PC that destroys the universe but I don't want it to be petty either.

CURRENT GPU AND POWER SUPPLY: (http://bit.ly/16Hwhzd)

Internal 300W (100V-240V)
•Form factor: Internal ATX
•Total wattage: 300W
•Nominal input voltage range: 200-240V/3A (50-60Hz)
•Dimensions: 150mm x 140mm x 86mm (5.9 x 5.5 x 3.4 inches)

Radeon HD 7570
•Form Factor: Full-height ATX bracket

•Maximum resolution:
◦DisplayPort resolution: 2560 x 1600 at 60Hz
◦HDMI resolution: 1920 x 1080 (1080p)
◦DVI (dual-link) resolution: 2560 x 1600 x 32bpp at 60Hz
◦Analog VGA resolution (with adapter): 2048 x 1536 x 32bpp at 60Hz

•2 GB onboard memory
•Memory size: 128-bit
•Memory type: DDR3
•Supports Blu-ray
•Supports up to three displays at the same time



OTHER RELEVANT SYSTEM SPECS:


AMD A10-5700 ((AMD A10-5700 APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics))

•TDP: 65W
•Operating speed: 3.4 GHz (up to 4.0 GHz turbo)
•Number of cores: 4
•Socket: FM2


MSI MS-7778 (Jasmine)

•Manufacturer: MSI
•Form factor: uATX - 24.4 cm (9.6 inches) x 24.4 cm (9.6 inches)
•Chipset: AMD A75 FCH
•Memory sockets: 2 x DDR3
•Front side bus speeds: UMI 5 GT/s
•Processor socket: FM2

•Expansion Slots:
◦1 PCI Express x16 (Gen 2.0)
◦3 PCI Express x1 (Gen 2.0)
◦1 PCI Express Mini Card (Gen 2.0)


8 GB ((4GB DIMM Hynix Semiconduc 1600MHz))²

•Amount: 8 GB
•Speed: PC3-12800 MB/sec
•Type: DDR3-1600



PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: www.dinopc.com
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: Uk, England, London

PARTS PREFERENCES: I assume that as the whole PC consists of AMD parts, I would have to obtain a new Intel compatible motherboard to use Intel parts but if not so, I wouldn't mind a GeForce Nvidea card.

OVERCLOCKING: Maybe
SLI OR CROSSFIRE: Yes, Crossfire

MONITOR RESOLUTION: 1920x1080

ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS:

*Would the extra GPU top my wattage over 300W (forcing me into getting a bigger power supply and then getting a cooler/fan to make sure its all in shape?)

*Is the 7570 APU compatible with the 7870 in Crossfire, if not, can I just not Crossfire it and let them run together without software?

*Would all the hassle be worth it as I would be running TWO GPU's instead of ONE more powerful GPU, therefor the PC would be hotter and louder?

*Would it be worth waiting until September/Christmas to see an improvement in AMD technology?



-Michael Scott
 

Spaniard United

Honorable
Nov 17, 2012
686
0
11,160
Ok so it took a while to read through all of that ... for starters I think you are confused about what you have.

The AMD A10 is your APU, which is the term for a CPU and GPU all in one. So your CPU is the A10 5700 and your integrated GPU is labeled the HD 7660D. Both of these are contained on the same chip.

Your Radeon HD 7570 is a discrete graphics card and a terrible one at that.

I would recommend the 7850 you linked above, though that would require getting a new PSU (power supply unit) as you need 500w. This would work and still fit inside your 200 budget : http://www.dinopc.com/shop/pc/-b-NEW-b-550W-Corsair-VS-85p1621.htm

You will not be able to crossfire your 7570 with the 7850 ... nor would you want to anyways. Once you get a new GPU, go ahead and toss the 7570 in the trash or donate it to a very low end PC.
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
You sir/madam, are an extremely helpful person.

So what I actually have is;

APU = (CPU: AMD A10 5700) + (GPU: 7660D)
GPU = AMD 7570

So the 7660D is BUILT into my CPU and I cannot remove it? Is it the main source of my graphical capabilities or is the 7570?

By the way you described it, the 7570 is a kind of separate GPU but a crap one which could change with a 7870, or have both of them in at one time but only use one? How would I change which one I want?

Could I get two 7870's and crossfire? Would that need more wattage?

If I couldn't afford two 7870's, or one, would;

Two Low/Mid end cards be better/more powerful
THAN
One Mid/High end card?

Now, I know you might have a Geforce Titan or something xD But what I am dealing with now isn't SO bad, I run all Valve games at max settings with great frames and handle all old games fairly well apart from Crysis (1).

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated, the wait was worth it.
 

Spaniard United

Honorable
Nov 17, 2012
686
0
11,160


 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
My God do you know what you are talking about! :O

Ok, so I am looking into the next step. Hopefully, I would obtain a 7870 and a new PSU. All of this extra power consuming business in my PC would mean that it would get hotter and louder so should I consider buying a non stock, specific cooler/fan as well? Would that use even more wattage over 500w?

I have given an extremely thorough summary of my specs, do I have enough PCI-e slots for all of these things?

Also, GPU manufactures. I read into it alot and have found that Sapphire is a budget manufacture while Gigabyte is a lot better, so I found this and was wondering about your opinions on this purchase and which manufacturer do you recommend?: http://tinyurl.com/cr8vgn2

With my CPU; A10 5700 with 7660D, I am pretty sure that its more than sufficient for gaming (3.4GHz with turbo to 4.0Ghz) Am I right in thinking this?

So I can remove the 7570 and replace it with anything apart from Intel/Geforce as my motherboard is AMD, correct?

Would my 7660D which is mashed in with the CPU use any power or add any frames or will it just deactivate?

Thank you.
 

Spaniard United

Honorable
Nov 17, 2012
686
0
11,160
If you're asking about a case fan, it wouldn't hurt, but HP is picky about their case layouts so you'd have to find out if there is a place to attach another fan. I couldn't find any information about the case and where/how many fans are included or possible to add.

I forgot about your extremely specific summary of parts ... sorry =P You have 1 PCIe slot which would mean you are only able to use 1 graphics card. That being the case 7870 is definitely my recommendation.

Manufacturers ... I personally have not had any problems with Gigabyte products and was initially going to purchase a Gigabyte 7950. However, I did a lot of reading and digging and found a lot of complaints about Gigabyte cards. Some were very happy with the purchase and some got lemons. On the other hand I found the majority of Sapphire owners were happier with their purchase and fewer seemed to get bad cards, so I went with Sapphire. That card looks good though and would certainly make my list of recommendations. It is a GHz Edition card which means the clock is factory OCed to significantly boost its performance over a regular 7870, meaning you'll get even more bang out of the card.

Your A10 should be fine for gaming. It isn't top of the line, but it's a good high mid-range CPU that should couple well with the 7870.

Remove the 7570 and dispose of it. You can replace it with an Nvidia card or AMD card (Intel only has integrated graphics which goes along with their own CPUs). If you decided to go with an Nvidia (geforce) card, it would work just fine in your system. The only parts that are truly picky about the manufacturers are the CPU and motherboard.

Your integrated graphics (7660D) will just sit unused when using a dedicated graphics card. There is a way to crossfire the inegrated graphics with a discrete card, but it would be a less power card and combo the nthe 7870 you're looking at.
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
What are the pros/cons of me, specifically buying a fan/cooler?

What frames do you think I would get in games such as BF3/Crysis 3/Far Cry 3 etc. with the 7870?

So you have Sapphire and are happy yet as the Gigabyte version it OC'ed, it would be stronger than the Sapphire variant? Which manufacturer will provide the best GPU performance from the 7870?

Will not having a fan/cool mean that the PC is really loud because of the crappy stock fan and the GPU whirring around?

What would your move be from here, in my shoes?

-Extreme thanks.
 

Spaniard United

Honorable
Nov 17, 2012
686
0
11,160
A fan for the case means that you have more airflow, cooler air coming in and warmer air moving out. As I said I could not find any information on the fan situation for your case so I don't know how many fans were included, where they are located, and in which direction they are directing air. The most common setup is to have 1-2 fans on the very front of the case pulling air in, 1 fan on the back of the case pushing air out, and 1-2 fans on the top of the case pushing air out. Some cases/user also include 1-2 side fans to pull the warm air away from the CPU and GPU coolers faster. At the very minimum you should have 1 in the front and 1 in the back. Any less than this and your airflow is being limited, your ambient temperature is higher than it should be, and you components end up with a shorter lifespan. For PCs, heat is the bad guy.

Framerate (FPS) is all a matter of choosing the right settings for your system. If you set your graphic quality too high, you get poor FPS. Conversely if you set it too low then you achieve higher FPS than your monitor can process and you're not using the equipment to its full potential. The trick is to find the sweet spot, the right settings that allow you to get the most out of your game. For most that is 60 FPS, some can deal with 30 FPS, most don't like any less than that though. You should certainly be able to get 60 FPS on those games, but it won't be on the absolute highest quality. However the 7870 GHz Edition cards offer very good FPS at fairly high settings, so compared to what you have been running, you should see higher quality gameplay at smoother FPS.

Both Sapphire and Gigabyte offer 7870 GHz Edition cards at comparable prices. My personal opinion is to go with Sapphire based on the sheer number of positive reviews over Gigabyte. I can say that my Sapphire GPU has performed well beyond my expectations and I've had no issues with it. As I have not owned a Gigabyte GPU, I cannot comment personally on their quality and performance. I can tell you what I've read and I can point to benchmarks, but at the end of the day I can only give you advice on what I know.

From a performance standpoint, an identical Sapphire 7870 GHz vs a Gigabyte 7870 GHz will come out about even because they have the same specs. The Gigabyte might cool better whereas the Sapphire has a better track record of good cards. Either way, they are good choices. Not all cards are created with the same specs though, so before you choose one over another, make sure you have all the facts. Different manufacturers give their cards different properties. Some have 1 fan where others have 2 or 3. Some OC their cards even further than 1 GHz while others keep is right at 1. Some cards offer a Boost feature that allows the user to easily OC the clocks even further whereas others rely on OC software for increased performance. And of course different cards offer different connections, DVI, HDMI, displayport, mini displayport.

Your PC will be as loud as the components within. If you are referring to your CPU cooler, it might be worth looking at an aftermarket cooler as they tend to run quieter and cool better.

In your shoes .... the PC has some good parts and some weak parts. First upgrade is PSU and GPU as we discussed. I would also look at the cooling situation for the case and see if my airflow was sufficient.
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
Are you sure my motherboard is compatible with a 7870? Apparently the Gigabyte OC has a better warranty than the Sapphire and it has 3 fans, not 2. What would stop me from cross-firing the 7870 with the 7570 and if I could, would it be worth it?
 
Yes as long as you have a sufficient power supply and the required 6 pin power connectors, a 7870 will work with your board.

Crossfiring a 7870 with a 7570 would force the 7870 to downclock itself to perform like a 7570. And then the result is as good as two 7570 in crossfire. You are better off running the 7870 on its own.

The Gigabyte 7870 OC should cost more than an ordinary Sapphire 7870. But you can always buy an ordinary card and overclock yourself. If you have the money and don't want to overclock yourself get the Gigabyte card.
 
You will need a new PSU of at least 500W to power a new graphics card. I suggest sticking to reliable brands like Seasonic or Corsair. And make sure it comes with two 6-pin power connectors (they should)
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
Wait, so the power pin connectors come from the PSU, not the motherboard? How do I check if my motherboard/PSU is compatible with a 7870, I don't know how many pins I have.

Also, I just though of this while doing something; when you said I can buy a 'normal' 7870, does that mean it has no brand and is made directly from AMD? Will overclocking a normal one myself make it perform just as well as the OC Gigabyte vers.?

 
The 6-pin power connectors come directly from your PSU. BUT it doesn't matter if you have the 6-pin connectors now because your PSU is not powerful enough to run with a 7870.

Your motherboard will work with a 7870. Your CPU is also fine. No need to ask any more about them anymore. The problem now is with your PSU it is simply not powerful enough.

And what I mean by a 'normal 7870' is that its a branded 7870 but just not factory overclocked or have anything more than what an average 7870 should have (except for the cooler that each manufacturer has to provide from their own brand)

Yes you could potentially overclock a normal card beyond the performance of the factory overclocked Gigabyte OC card. But overclocking a card on your own you will run the risk of damaging it and/or shortening its operating lifespan.
 
You'll do at least high graphics settings easily with a 7870 at 1080p
Cant tell exactly how many fps you will get, but with my moderately overclocked 7950 I'm getting well over 80fps average on my 19" at maxed settings. Should translate to over 60fps average if I got a 23". A 7870 isn't very far behind so high settings can be expected.
 
After you get the new PSU and GPU installed, update to the latest Catalyst beta drivers and you are all set to play your games. However you will not 'reign supreme over all PC newbs' as there are a lot of said PC newbs who simply buy complete gaming rigs off the store shelves.
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
Hahaaa, I did that move and ended up with this great/shit PC. From your experiance, what do you think I'd be able to run Skyrim at?

I don't want to buy it and end up playing it on Low/Mid :I
 
A 7870 should run Skyrim on high settings at 1080p. But no guarantees as these quoted achievable performance levels (or what anyone else on the web will say you will achieve) are assuming you keep your PC in optimal running condition.

Many people who don't know how to do so, experience significant performance degradation over time, mainly caused by accumulated clutterware, background applications, and data fragmentation. (Which delves into software which is a whole other matter I don't want to discuss in here)
 
No they won't. Just remember to remove/uninstall stuff that you don't use anymore. Manage startup and background applications, services. Defragment the registry, and your drive if you use a mechanical hard drive. Essentially keep only what you want and need, and keep as much system resources free as possible, so that your games can get all they need to give you the best experience.
 

Michael Scott

Honorable
Mar 19, 2013
31
0
10,530
Alright, so I started my serious research and have stumbled across another problem. Would 500w's be the bare minimum and be dangerous at a low wattage or is it more than enough? Would getting a 550w make a difference and what would be the pro's/con's.

I have found these two PSU's:

500w

OR

550w

I notice they have different pins which might affect the 7870 I plan to buy.
 
Something like this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207013&Tpk=xfx%20550&IsVirtualParent=1

Dunno what it costs in the UK, but its cheap, reliable and popular with system builders on a budget.

When picking a PSU do not skimp on cost. Some random or unbranded PSU might be cheaper, but they more often than not provide less power than advertised, and are unreliable. When the PSU dies it could take your whole system with it. Stick to reliable brands like Seasonic, Corsair, XFX and check for reviews & user feedback.