How to Revote the Patriot Act (Warrantless Wire Tapping aka Prism)and restore the appearance of freedom to the united states
Last response: in News & Leisure
gunslingor
June 11, 2013 6:24:54 PM
People of the interwebs, hear me now... Most of us have known about these programs for decades, even before the patriot act most of us knew the government did some sort of spying on its citizens. But we enter a new era, the data storage capabilities have outstripped our ability to analyze... but not for much longer. The danger isn't necessarily what they are doing with the data now while the program is still in its infancy, its what they'll do with it in the future.
The danger is real and the possibility for abuses are infinite. This data will never go away... so if you searched "Israel" and the Nazi's ever take over the US, they'll easily be able to track you down with this data warehouse and, likely, even non-Jews who just happen to search the term will be persecuted. I can't predict all hypothetical ways this data can be used and misused in the next 100 years, I just know based on the size and scope of the program, it'll never go away and I wouldn't trust my own mother with this data. Because there are an infinite number of ways this data can be abused and/or misinterpreted and there are a very finite number of ways in which it can be used ethically, I recommend, for the first time in my life, that you minimize your footprint on the web. Political persecution has probably already happened as a result of this domestic spying program, undoubtedly people have been wrongfully accused and potentially even thrown in some hole somewhere... its inevitable statistically speaking, with the scope of the program, without due process and the vast amounts of data they are working thru, and there claim that its saving lives (meaning they are taking real world actions on the algorithms)... its unquestionable in my mind, the internet is more dangerous now than its ever been and its not the hackers and scam artists I'm afraid of... Its Google, Twitter and the Government....
I don't blame Google, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't real. I feel they are an ally in this fight... That's why I call on all the people of the webs, in this moment of need... stop using Google, twitter and Facebook... if these company's see falling profits in the coming weeks, after most Americans are now aware they are being spied on, then these reductions in profit will be real world consequences of the spying program and Google and the others will have a solid case in court against the government... it will provide a path forward to preserve our freedoms... use duckduckgo.com or similar instead of Google, any site that doesn't store user data so that the government can't even ask for it... or foreign sites where the government has no jurisdiction... real time tracking by the government of the internet isn't feasible for now, thank god, but the vast amounts of data dumps are literally just a few baby steps away from this... its not real time, but it is likely by the day or week considering 30,000 data requests of 20,000 or more users on a yearly basis.
You should care about your rights... if they can make the argument that eliminating the right to privacy can save lives... they can do they same for the other rights without question right? I mean, the right not to self incriminate... can you imagine all bad people we could put away if that right didn't exist... or the right to jury by trial, OJ would be in prison right now if we didn't have that right... freedom of the press, we wouldn't even know about this program if it weren't for that, so this right negatively impacts security as well... at least in the governments eyes. Hell, even something as basic as the right to elect our leaders negatively impacts security... I mean, constantly throwing a new guy in the white house...
You can't let them make this argument or they'll be able to make the argument for years or centuries to come in a large variety of situations. I do feel this is an opportunity to change the future, all people have to do is stopping using Google and twitter for a little while...
The danger is real and the possibility for abuses are infinite. This data will never go away... so if you searched "Israel" and the Nazi's ever take over the US, they'll easily be able to track you down with this data warehouse and, likely, even non-Jews who just happen to search the term will be persecuted. I can't predict all hypothetical ways this data can be used and misused in the next 100 years, I just know based on the size and scope of the program, it'll never go away and I wouldn't trust my own mother with this data. Because there are an infinite number of ways this data can be abused and/or misinterpreted and there are a very finite number of ways in which it can be used ethically, I recommend, for the first time in my life, that you minimize your footprint on the web. Political persecution has probably already happened as a result of this domestic spying program, undoubtedly people have been wrongfully accused and potentially even thrown in some hole somewhere... its inevitable statistically speaking, with the scope of the program, without due process and the vast amounts of data they are working thru, and there claim that its saving lives (meaning they are taking real world actions on the algorithms)... its unquestionable in my mind, the internet is more dangerous now than its ever been and its not the hackers and scam artists I'm afraid of... Its Google, Twitter and the Government....
I don't blame Google, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't real. I feel they are an ally in this fight... That's why I call on all the people of the webs, in this moment of need... stop using Google, twitter and Facebook... if these company's see falling profits in the coming weeks, after most Americans are now aware they are being spied on, then these reductions in profit will be real world consequences of the spying program and Google and the others will have a solid case in court against the government... it will provide a path forward to preserve our freedoms... use duckduckgo.com or similar instead of Google, any site that doesn't store user data so that the government can't even ask for it... or foreign sites where the government has no jurisdiction... real time tracking by the government of the internet isn't feasible for now, thank god, but the vast amounts of data dumps are literally just a few baby steps away from this... its not real time, but it is likely by the day or week considering 30,000 data requests of 20,000 or more users on a yearly basis.
You should care about your rights... if they can make the argument that eliminating the right to privacy can save lives... they can do they same for the other rights without question right? I mean, the right not to self incriminate... can you imagine all bad people we could put away if that right didn't exist... or the right to jury by trial, OJ would be in prison right now if we didn't have that right... freedom of the press, we wouldn't even know about this program if it weren't for that, so this right negatively impacts security as well... at least in the governments eyes. Hell, even something as basic as the right to elect our leaders negatively impacts security... I mean, constantly throwing a new guy in the white house...
You can't let them make this argument or they'll be able to make the argument for years or centuries to come in a large variety of situations. I do feel this is an opportunity to change the future, all people have to do is stopping using Google and twitter for a little while...
More about : revote patriot act warrantless wire tapping aka prism restore appearance freedom united states
musical marv
June 11, 2013 7:45:13 PM
gunslingor said:
People of the interwebs, hear me now... Most of us have known about these programs for decades, even before the patriot act most of us knew the government did some sort of spying on its citizens. But we enter a new era, the data storage capabilities have outstripped our ability to analyze... but not for much longer. The danger isn't necessarily what they are doing with the data now while the program is still in its infancy, its what they'll do with it in the future.The danger is real and the possibility for abuses are infinite. This data will never go away... so if you searched "Israel" and the Nazi's ever take over the US, they'll easily be able to track you down with this data warehouse and, likely, even non-Jews who just happen to search the term will be persecuted. I can't predict all hypothetical ways this data can be used and misused in the next 100 years, I just know based on the size and scope of the program, it'll never go away and I wouldn't trust my own mother with this data. Because there are an infinite number of ways this data can be abused and/or misinterpreted and there are a very finite number of ways in which it can be used ethically, I recommend, for the first time in my life, that you minimize your footprint on the web. Political persecution has probably already happened as a result of this domestic spying program, undoubtedly people have been wrongfully accused and potentially even thrown in some hole somewhere... its inevitable statistically speaking, with the scope of the program, without due process and the vast amounts of data they are working thru, and there claim that its saving lives (meaning they are taking real world actions on the algorithms)... its unquestionable in my mind, the internet is more dangerous now than its ever been and its not the hackers and scam artists I'm afraid of... Its Google, Twitter and the Government....
I don't blame Google, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't real. I feel they are an ally in this fight... That's why I call on all the people of the webs, in this moment of need... stop using Google, twitter and Facebook... if these company's see falling profits in the coming weeks, after most Americans are now aware they are being spied on, then these reductions in profit will be real world consequences of the spying program and Google and the others will have a solid case in court against the government... it will provide a path forward to preserve our freedoms... use duckduckgo.com or similar instead of Google, any site that doesn't store user data so that the government can't even ask for it... or foreign sites where the government has no jurisdiction... real time tracking by the government of the internet isn't feasible for now, thank god, but the vast amounts of data dumps are literally just a few baby steps away from this... its not real time, but it is likely by the day or week considering 30,000 data requests of 20,000 or more users on a yearly basis.
You should care about your rights... if they can make the argument that eliminating the right to privacy can save lives... they can do they same for the other rights without question right? I mean, the right not to self incriminate... can you imagine all bad people we could put away if that right didn't exist... or the right to jury by trial, OJ would be in prison right now if we didn't have that right... freedom of the press, we wouldn't even know about this program if it weren't for that, so this right negatively impacts security as well... at least in the governments eyes. Hell, even something as basic as the right to elect our leaders negatively impacts security... I mean, constantly throwing a new guy in the white house...
You can't let them make this argument or they'll be able to make the argument for years or centuries to come in a large variety of situations. I do feel this is an opportunity to change the future, all people have to do is stopping using Google and twitter for a little while...
dogman_1234
June 12, 2013 12:39:05 AM
I do worry about my country, I worry that my people are subecting themselves to ignorance, to social engineering. We are the terrorists in the governments eyes...not those rag-head @$$-hats.
What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.
This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."
We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.
The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.
Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.
We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.
I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.
"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."
What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.
This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."
We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.
The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.
Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.
We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.
I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.
"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."
gunslingor
June 12, 2013 5:49:04 AM
I concur. We are so willing to sacrifice our freedom out of fear for potential attacks, we are letting the fear, perpetually and intentionally propagated by the government via the media, dictate our actions. Decisions made solely on the basis of fear are rarely good decisions, especially when the other side of the debate is hushed with statements like "love it or leave it" or "he's the president, therefore you should support his decisions, he's our 'decider'". I knew this was coming, and this is the only type of debate I could have after 911... people refused to look at the facts. Few people look at the past when discussing these subjects, this recent story is even presented with the impression that these are new stories... there was a similar leak in 2006, and anyone with half a brain knew this was coming back when the act passed. Some people just don't care about the truth, opting for a view of reality based on desire instead of fact...
I'm personally more than willing to sacrifice my life to preserve our freedoms, we all must be, otherwise we don't deserve an army willing to do the same. Support our troops by not letting them die in vain, without purpose, without their own god given rights... not by supporting the unquestionable will of your leader.
Just to put the argument in context, average deaths per year for:
Car accidents: 40,000
Cancer: 564,800 (1/4 of which is likely caused by cigarettes, 2/4 of which is likely caused by pollution)
Terrorist attacks: averaged out over the last decade: less than 1,000 people globally, less than 100 people per year in the US.
Soldiers at war: roughly 1,000 people per year.
So, we seem more than willing to allow minimum 500,000 people to die of cancer yearly, all for the purposes of maintaining corporate profits for cigarettes and the antiquated fuel source of fermented million year old flesh (i.e. oil).
We seem more than willing to sacrifice thousands of troops every year, to protect a few hundred Americans... but apparently not their freedoms... why is this? Could it perhaps be because war is highly profitable while freedom is the opposite? I suspect this holds a grain of truth.
Its simple, all we have to do to preserve our freedoms is stand and fight together... all we need to lose our freedoms is fear... that's all it takes and the American people have been led down this path, intentionally...
I'm personally more than willing to sacrifice my life to preserve our freedoms, we all must be, otherwise we don't deserve an army willing to do the same. Support our troops by not letting them die in vain, without purpose, without their own god given rights... not by supporting the unquestionable will of your leader.
Just to put the argument in context, average deaths per year for:
Car accidents: 40,000
Cancer: 564,800 (1/4 of which is likely caused by cigarettes, 2/4 of which is likely caused by pollution)
Terrorist attacks: averaged out over the last decade: less than 1,000 people globally, less than 100 people per year in the US.
Soldiers at war: roughly 1,000 people per year.
So, we seem more than willing to allow minimum 500,000 people to die of cancer yearly, all for the purposes of maintaining corporate profits for cigarettes and the antiquated fuel source of fermented million year old flesh (i.e. oil).
We seem more than willing to sacrifice thousands of troops every year, to protect a few hundred Americans... but apparently not their freedoms... why is this? Could it perhaps be because war is highly profitable while freedom is the opposite? I suspect this holds a grain of truth.
Its simple, all we have to do to preserve our freedoms is stand and fight together... all we need to lose our freedoms is fear... that's all it takes and the American people have been led down this path, intentionally...
gunslingor
June 12, 2013 9:46:37 AM
Oldmangamer_73 said:
I still find it amazing that when Bush was taking away our freedoms every lib within shouting distance let him have it. Now, Obama is not only doubling down, but tripling down on what Bush started and we don't hear a peep from the resident libs. Shills!!Well, I'm a liberal and here I am, making a peep. In regards to the media, it's highly control by the AP, which in turn is highly controlled by the government, which in turn is highly controlled by the corporations of America. From a corporate standpoint, most laws negatively impact profits and as a general tendency, republics want more rights for corporations than people, and this is why your not hearing much in the media.
Forgetting about your political argument for a second, where do you stand on the issue?
wanamingo
June 12, 2013 10:49:27 AM
I think Gunslingor summed it up perfectly.
My only comment is, why is anyone surprised? Popsci did an article on the NSA supercomputer a few years ago, it is common knowledge Verizon has a "Black" room where all data is routed before it hits the company. There are multiple documentaries about how nothing digital should be considered private or personal.
I thought for sure everyone knew that you had no privacy... Thankfully VT's senator (Sanders, Independent) is an outspoken critic of NSA spying, so at least some elected officials are on the right page.
Unfortunately the other state I spend my time in isnt so great... Both Ayotte and Shaheen (republicans) on NH have either said nothing or sh*t like this:
He was seconded by Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H. who also noted that intelligence officials have credited the program with the prevention of terrorist attacks in the past and said that "we have a responsibility to protect people's constitutional rights, but let's not forget that we're still at war with terrorists."
My only comment is, why is anyone surprised? Popsci did an article on the NSA supercomputer a few years ago, it is common knowledge Verizon has a "Black" room where all data is routed before it hits the company. There are multiple documentaries about how nothing digital should be considered private or personal.
I thought for sure everyone knew that you had no privacy... Thankfully VT's senator (Sanders, Independent) is an outspoken critic of NSA spying, so at least some elected officials are on the right page.
Unfortunately the other state I spend my time in isnt so great... Both Ayotte and Shaheen (republicans) on NH have either said nothing or sh*t like this:
Quote:
"This was a lawful program," approved and reviewed by the court system, that "has stopped terrorist attacks in the past," said House Homeland Security Chairman Michael McCaul, R-Texas, on "Face the Nation."He was seconded by Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H. who also noted that intelligence officials have credited the program with the prevention of terrorist attacks in the past and said that "we have a responsibility to protect people's constitutional rights, but let's not forget that we're still at war with terrorists."
gunslingor
June 12, 2013 11:21:14 AM
Quote:
Well, these laws were designed to help combat our sworn enemies.Some think that, others realize that whatever the purpose may have been in the beginning (whether it truly was for protection or for something more sinister) that the purpose will change as time moves on...the system itself and the purpose of the system will change with time... its similar to Pandora's box, you open it your gonna be boned at some point. It took thousands of years to form a society like America, and once its gone it'll be another thousand years. This is preciously why we have a constitution... because laws do need to change, because the world changes as do governments, technology and everything else in the universe... but these fundamental rights are rights that are self evident, that we are born with, that no man has the right to take away from another (unless of course they violate the rights of others and get thrown in jail). Our "sworn enemies" are our enemies for a reason, we aren't a muslin governement that inherently restricts freedom, this is why the extreme muslims find us so evil.... so what the hell is your plan? Abolish all American rights so they won't have a reason to attack us anymore? That's smart thinking! Very noble! Way to plan for the future!
Quote:
All well and good, but now our very own government deems those to be enemies on a whim, usually politically motivated. What did you think would happen after the patriot act? Did you think every president from now until eternity would be a highly ethical individual who would only use it for good? Give me a break, these idiots are so short sited.
Quote:
See the recent IRS scandals which doesn't even address the local persecution of Tea Party and patriot groups.If you know anything about 501C4s, you'll know these are again unconstitutional constructs used to inject corporate greed into the political systems. I don't defend the IRS, but I also don't judge prior to seeing the evidence.
Quote:
I believe is less government as better. That's where I stand. Traditionally I'd know what you meant when you said that, but these days its highly subjective... I mean, most republicans claim to believe in less government, but what they really mean is less government for business and more government for citizens... Democrats these days, for the most part, believe the opposite.
Republicans try for, on the behalf of corporations: Deregulation of industry, dismantling the EPA, More money for the military even though we spend 10 times more than ALL countries combined, minimizing gun control (largely for the gun Mfrs who are just as influential as the military contractors, though this can be considered to overlap with the below), not setting up laws forcing food producers to mark their products as genetically modified and/or irradiated... hell, thanks to republicans McDonalds is now considered a person.
Republicans try for, on the behalf of citizens: Making gay marriage illegal, making abortion illegal, Warrentless wiretapping (thanks bush), no healthcare unless you can afford it yourself (increasing the profits of health care companies), no social security (i.e. more profits for Wallstreet brokers).
In my eyes, Republicans of the last 2 decades, at least, have been focusing on restricting American rights and opening corporate rights. The democrats are the opposite. Usually this would be conducive to a perfect compromise but thanks to the reworked filibuster rules of the 90's, they can't get anything done.
The patriot act is an abomination, especially how it has evolved to spy American citizens for their political views not the real enemy that's wants to see us all dead simply because we exist and like freedom.
This is what is was intended for, you cannot doubt that the potential was always there. Thanks Republicans! Either incredibly stupid and short sited, or blatantly corrupt and controlling.
Quote:
I may not be referring to you when I discuss the resident libs here. There are some here that defend anything this administration or government does. Those are who I was referring to. The shills. In 100% all honesty, I think your wrong... Obama is criticized constantly, by people like me, by the liberal media MSNBC, by everyone... Watch the Daily show, any night of the week. Democrats hold him to an extremely high standard, republicans would criticize him if he single handedly prevented and alien invasion. In contrast, the republicans always had this attitude of "love it or leave" and "I'm the decider" and "you should support his decision because he's our leader".
I remember, just a few years back when Obama was elected for the first time... I was sitting in restaurant bar watching the result come in, another guy was sitting next to me that was a republican and we talked a good bit... finally, the electron results came in and Obama won. My comment to the fellow was something along the lines "Boy I'm glad he one, I just hope he isn't a wolf in sheep's clothing". His response was something like "well, you elected him therefore you have to support him"... my response was "are you insane? People have to watch our leaders regardless of who elected them... we aren't electing a god dam Pharaoh here".
You have to understand how hard the bush years were for a guy like me... every one of these issue, I saw coming, and I tried to debate it constantly with republicans only to be hushed up with the previously stated statements like "love it or leave it", not a typical montra of the democrats or liberals obviously. Iraq, not having weapons of mass distruction... I called it. The governments use of torture at Abu Ghraib... I called it... (by the way, those poor soldiers hushed to silence for there country are still being blamed for this, even though the tactics used there precisely match those used at Gaun-ton... support our troops, funny indeed). Warrantless wiretapping, I obviously called that one. To name a very very few.
I would ask you, what's your opinion of Heriberto Gonzalez? Effectively doing the same thing the IRS did? Most republicans defended him at the time, whole heartedly they defended him... Anyone crying for blood in this IRS case need only be called a hypocrite if they approve of Gonzalez's actions.
I'm not for the democrats, I view them on par ethically with the republicans, perhaps slightly better if it weren't for their acceptance of Republican control, regardless of the ruling party. I only support those with an inherent desire to do good, secondly for our country, but for mankind in general first and foremost... Anyone else in office has there priorities out of wack and can't be trusted... our troops are willing to give their lives for the US, and in support of other countries, so should our leaders or they don't deserve to be leaders.
I can assure you all the checks and balances associated with the program were in fact only on paper. How it functioned was completely different than what was on paper. I can also assure you the reason they are contractors is to blame this kind of event on non-government employees, but on private companies that contract with the government. In the end when they stand before Congress they can say "here's the paper saying what it was supposed to do" and "here's the private company that didn't do what we requested."
In the end, the government is setup to not take any fault for the mishappenings or blame.
My favorite argument used is, "The computer systems are 100% working all the time with 100% up time. All systems are functioning 100% correctly."
In the end, the government is setup to not take any fault for the mishappenings or blame.
My favorite argument used is, "The computer systems are 100% working all the time with 100% up time. All systems are functioning 100% correctly."
dogman_1234
June 12, 2013 12:16:53 PM
Oldman, do you know what a classical liberal thinks? What they stand for? I think you would be suprised as to what a liberal and you would hold true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
gunslingor
June 12, 2013 12:37:19 PM
Riser, VERY good point!
Anyway... Sorry for my rants as well, obviously we all feel passionately aboutt our world views. We all agree on one thing, that this survalence sucks, and we should focus on that so perhaps we can be productive instead of arguementative. back to the point, I hereby commit not to use google search for 3 months minimum... Not to mess with Facebook.. And to minimize my footprint on the Internet. If we all do it, we can change this... But do we care enough, or does it have to get REALLY bad before us citizens do our jobs and keep our leaders in check.
Anyway... Sorry for my rants as well, obviously we all feel passionately aboutt our world views. We all agree on one thing, that this survalence sucks, and we should focus on that so perhaps we can be productive instead of arguementative. back to the point, I hereby commit not to use google search for 3 months minimum... Not to mess with Facebook.. And to minimize my footprint on the Internet. If we all do it, we can change this... But do we care enough, or does it have to get REALLY bad before us citizens do our jobs and keep our leaders in check.
teddymines
June 12, 2013 12:43:11 PM
How many here would stand in line for an implant that tells the government where we visit, what we read, who we talk to, and maybe even listen in on conversations or record video?
Now consider smart phones. The citizenry actually buys them with their own money, and pays the subscription fees and taxes. They voluntarily emit their feelings, thoughts, messages, favorites, videos, images, and location. Software developers are constantly making new social media applications, providing more metadata. Even banks have smart phone apps. Phones have built in batteries, so they can be activated remotely without your knowledge and track your presence, listen in, and maybe even video. People have their images to maintain, so upgrades keep the devices out there on the cutting edge, and old ones are culled as they break after a few years.
It is genius. Our government has found a way to monitor people by taking advantage of our attraction to flashy and sleek technology, and to avoid becoming a victim of peer pressure.
Now consider smart phones. The citizenry actually buys them with their own money, and pays the subscription fees and taxes. They voluntarily emit their feelings, thoughts, messages, favorites, videos, images, and location. Software developers are constantly making new social media applications, providing more metadata. Even banks have smart phone apps. Phones have built in batteries, so they can be activated remotely without your knowledge and track your presence, listen in, and maybe even video. People have their images to maintain, so upgrades keep the devices out there on the cutting edge, and old ones are culled as they break after a few years.
It is genius. Our government has found a way to monitor people by taking advantage of our attraction to flashy and sleek technology, and to avoid becoming a victim of peer pressure.
You can use things like Silent Circle to encrypt your phone calls and stuff on your cell. The other side needs to use it as well, but that doesn't stop them from unencrypting it. It just makes it more time consuming for them to do that.
If it is metadata, they simply search for a phone number and all records are produced in that manner. That doesn't stop them from looking else where.. just like you've seen in politics where people in certain positions use it to dig into political opponents.
If it is metadata, they simply search for a phone number and all records are produced in that manner. That doesn't stop them from looking else where.. just like you've seen in politics where people in certain positions use it to dig into political opponents.
Why dont we just get this over with, and get those chips put in our hand or forehead?
It would solve everything, what we buy, where we go.....
Weve lost freedoms here, people are defending this, leaders are saying its not that bad, nothing more to see, the leakers are our enemies, and the leakers are the liars, or have pled the fifth and still theres nothing more to find out after doing so according to some.
Time to get rid of alot of phony power grabbers in our government, and I really dont care if theyve tried to scratch my back or not, they have to go, if both the libs and cons can agree here, we get our country back sooner rather than later
It would solve everything, what we buy, where we go.....
Weve lost freedoms here, people are defending this, leaders are saying its not that bad, nothing more to see, the leakers are our enemies, and the leakers are the liars, or have pled the fifth and still theres nothing more to find out after doing so according to some.
Time to get rid of alot of phony power grabbers in our government, and I really dont care if theyve tried to scratch my back or not, they have to go, if both the libs and cons can agree here, we get our country back sooner rather than later
This isnt just a little problem we are going to have domestically tho
http://arabia.msn.com/news/world/1915080/pressure-merke...
All the rhetoric the BO admin states about how to go softer on whos causing terrorism, and how to react to others world wide who disagree with us goes counter to his hypocritical ways, seen doubly by not only using this, as he opposed it and supposedly was appalled by Bush's use of it, has expanded it, is now outed, and our neighbors around the planet arent too happy about our wisened "leader" here either.
So, I didnt only mention Snowden, I also was refering to the IRS scandal where some say theres nothing more to learn, where some have pled the fifth under oath.
If it isnt covered up, try to, if it gets exposed, go after those who expose it, water it down, again, dont let questions be asked, and move on, and what Im saying is, its the same people wanting this, the same "leaders", the ones who think nanny, be they repubs or dems, they know better for you and I , all we have to do is trust them, after we find out about their indiscretions ?
Like a cheating lover, theyll want to talk after being found out, but they want it to end before you find out too much
http://arabia.msn.com/news/world/1915080/pressure-merke...
All the rhetoric the BO admin states about how to go softer on whos causing terrorism, and how to react to others world wide who disagree with us goes counter to his hypocritical ways, seen doubly by not only using this, as he opposed it and supposedly was appalled by Bush's use of it, has expanded it, is now outed, and our neighbors around the planet arent too happy about our wisened "leader" here either.
So, I didnt only mention Snowden, I also was refering to the IRS scandal where some say theres nothing more to learn, where some have pled the fifth under oath.
If it isnt covered up, try to, if it gets exposed, go after those who expose it, water it down, again, dont let questions be asked, and move on, and what Im saying is, its the same people wanting this, the same "leaders", the ones who think nanny, be they repubs or dems, they know better for you and I , all we have to do is trust them, after we find out about their indiscretions ?
Like a cheating lover, theyll want to talk after being found out, but they want it to end before you find out too much
johnsonma
June 13, 2013 8:07:12 AM
I see everyone talking about the government when that is only half the equation. What about the corporations that collect and even sell data on us? Facebook, google, etc...
I'm not sure you could ever make the internet truly free from the government and corporations, the only thing I think that would be plausible would be to do what Riser said, make it as hard as possible to access your data. Proxy's and encryptions should become the new norm for the average user.
I'm not sure you could ever make the internet truly free from the government and corporations, the only thing I think that would be plausible would be to do what Riser said, make it as hard as possible to access your data. Proxy's and encryptions should become the new norm for the average user.
teddymines
June 13, 2013 10:14:32 AM
johnsonma said:
I see everyone talking about the government when that is only half the equation. What about the corporations that collect and even sell data on us? Facebook, google, etc...I'm not sure you could ever make the internet truly free from the government and corporations, the only thing I think that would be plausible would be to do what Riser said, make it as hard as possible to access your data. Proxy's and encryptions should become the new norm for the average user.
Or just take the "hit" and go with a dumb phone with removable battery, pay your checks by mail, use cash, and limit your web surfing. I for one am interested in lowering the amount of metadata I create, and if it costs me a little more time and money, I'm ok with that.
johnsonma said:
I see everyone talking about the government when that is only half the equation. What about the corporations that collect and even sell data on us? Facebook, google, etc...I'm not sure you could ever make the internet truly free from the government and corporations, the only thing I think that would be plausible would be to do what Riser said, make it as hard as possible to access your data. Proxy's and encryptions should become the new norm for the average user.
Proxies and certs are just an extra hurdle to get over for the gov't. Encryption on the other hand requires more details. They're working on breaking AES-256, once that happens it'll be a matter of months before all data going back to 2005/2006 is decoded and available.
As far as companies, they're being forced by the gov't to give that information over. The document was released that was sent to MCI (Verizon) stating that it was now a legal requirement that MCI hand over that information.
The major difference between the government having that data and a corporation is that the government has the infrastructure setup to search that information. Corporations do not have groups strictly there to search the data. Intent of use is the concern.
For reference to the document that ordered MCI to turn over it's records to the gov't, you can read it here at this excellent site which I highly recommend to anyone:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
Michael Yon is one of the top correspondants in Afghanistan and Iraq. His work changed how the wars were fought and openly criticized and praised the efforts. On top of that he also reports other things. He isn't anti-government. He is about bringing to light things that we in America are surprised to find out about, but everyone else already knew.
For example, in the wars, the enemy would use cell phone cameras to detect US troops. Or that we continue to have military branches refusing to remove the red cross and arm helicopters for wounded evacs because top generals don't want to give up control of their stuff to the greater good.
He has spent more time embedded than any other multiple reporters combined and his insight is impeccable.
wanamingo
June 13, 2013 11:13:18 AM
Oldmangamer_73 said:
Do you see who is running our schools, teaching our children? I'm sure johnson and mingo would approve.School Threatens to Ruin Valedictorian’s Naval Academy Appt.
A Texas high school principal threatened to sabotage a valedictorian’s appointment to the U.S. Naval Academy after the student delivered a speech that referenced God and the U.S. Constitution, the boy’s attorney alleges.
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school...
*sigh* Im only responding because this time you called me out by name. No one should be threatened with any kind of harm to their college or career prospects because of what they ay at their graduation. The role of a school should be to teach a student how to think not what to think.I doubt whether religion had anything to do with it considering the school started and ended the ceremony with a Christian prayer.
But again Oldman you sure have done your part to call out Johnson and me in another thread for something a principal almost did in Texas. Therefore exposing the liberal agenda to not let kids talk about Jesus and the constitution (Which we are all in on).
I thought we had him there Johnson but Oldmangamer is too smart for us. Oh well lets go convince some kids that drugs are fun and socialism is groovy.
wanamingo
June 13, 2013 11:44:40 AM
Though I do agree with OMG that you guys do come across as 'ok' with these things.. goes back to the statement that you have to stand for something.
I guess it begs the question for you two, when is it too much?
Check this guy out:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/13/Bank...
I guess it begs the question for you two, when is it too much?
Check this guy out:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/13/Bank...
wanamingo
June 13, 2013 12:32:33 PM
WTF are you talking about riser? How have I ever been Ok with "Those Things" I know we have a difference of belief in a lot of areas but this is getting to be a bit too much. I post a lot on reddit (Not under wanamingo) and a few other news and politics site, this place used to be a bit more relaxed... you know with humor and such, but I find myself not having so much fun anymore.
I dont think that guy should be allowed to use the NSA gathered info as evidence in his case because it would set a precedent that the NSA is legally obtaining that data. All info should be thrown out stop being gathered, not used in court.
I dont think that guy should be allowed to use the NSA gathered info as evidence in his case because it would set a precedent that the NSA is legally obtaining that data. All info should be thrown out stop being gathered, not used in court.
johnsonma
June 13, 2013 12:39:46 PM
Anyone can say that they condemn something, it doesn't matter if you do or don't. Usually I say something like that principal was an idiot, so i'm not sure how you get the impression that i'm alright with these things.
BTW OMG, when was the last time we have targeted you individually? We weren't even posting in this thread and you still had to take shots at us. When was the last time I specifically said you were "this" or "that"?
BTW OMG, when was the last time we have targeted you individually? We weren't even posting in this thread and you still had to take shots at us. When was the last time I specifically said you were "this" or "that"?
johnsonma
June 13, 2013 12:42:23 PM
wanamingo said:
WTF are you talking about riser? How have I ever been Ok with "Those Things" I know we have a difference of belief in a lot of areas but this is getting to be a bit too much. I post a lot on reddit (Not under wanamingo) and a few other news and politics site, this place used to be a bit more relaxed... you know with humor and such, but I find myself not having so much fun anymore. I dont think that guy should be allowed to use the NSA gathered info as evidence in his case because it would set a precedent that the NSA is legally obtaining that data. All info should be thrown out stop being gathered, not used in court.
Obviously, if we don't agree with them on certain political issues then we don't agree with them on anything.
wanamingo
June 13, 2013 12:55:11 PM
dogman_1234
June 13, 2013 3:08:40 PM
I like the vid on risers link, it mentions terrorists more times by government officials other than republicans than Ive heard since waaaaaaaaaaaay before the election.
Now I guess its OK to take out and dust off that word.
PS I dont want to suffer fools, and is why Im against many dems who follow the party line, like before the election, terrorism and terrorists werent to be mentioned, and now, they want to defend why they need to spy on us.
I know, many republicans thinks its OK as well, get rid of them as well, way I see it, its 4 to 1, dems lose
Now I guess its OK to take out and dust off that word.
PS I dont want to suffer fools, and is why Im against many dems who follow the party line, like before the election, terrorism and terrorists werent to be mentioned, and now, they want to defend why they need to spy on us.
I know, many republicans thinks its OK as well, get rid of them as well, way I see it, its 4 to 1, dems lose
musical marv
June 13, 2013 7:58:41 PM
dogman_1234 said:
I do worry about my country, I worry that my people are subecting themselves to ignorance, to social engineering. We are the terrorists in the governments eyes...not those rag-head @$$-hats.What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.
This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."
We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.
The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.
Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.
We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.
I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.
"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."
dogman_1234
June 13, 2013 10:11:44 PM
musical marv said:
dogman_1234 said:
I do worry about my country, I worry that my people are subecting themselves to ignorance, to social engineering. We are the terrorists in the governments eyes...not those rag-head @$$-hats.What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.
This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."
We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.
The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.
Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.
We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.
I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.
"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."
Your statement in the sigma to my thesis. Well done!
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.
I guess Jefferson was onto something here, tho of course, some people, and todays leaders knew soooo much more than he did, now, lets see them prove it to me, and alot, to regain my trust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbxICNEDao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xNyrzB0xI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3hY1eagq88
I guess Jefferson was onto something here, tho of course, some people, and todays leaders knew soooo much more than he did, now, lets see them prove it to me, and alot, to regain my trust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbxICNEDao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xNyrzB0xI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3hY1eagq88
teddymines
June 14, 2013 9:46:34 AM
Oldmangamer_73 said:
Government is built on trust. It's the only way we will consent to be governed. They sure have done a good job of totally obliterating that trust haven't they?All governments are made from people. The only chance I see for us to gain back trust in government is for the people running it to come forward when their line of work involves violating the constitution or laws. It breaks my heart to think that there are people getting paid to do something fundamentally wrong, and they keep quiet because of some sworn statement (I have to assume they didn't know the details before signing).
I watched a guy on TV, lawyer, he was saying that Snowden did illegal acts.
He then went on to say he has represented others who stood against government policy, all classified, where in some cases we heard about it, and others where we hadnt heard about it, and his clients won, and therefore no leaks were surfaced.
But, to condemn Snowden just because he didnt come to this lawyer is what we see once again from our system, and some things need to be known and discussed, so our leaders can hear from us, and if such a person "wins" the peoples arguments side, or if this is also found unconstitutional, how then can a whistleblower be guilty?
Prosecuting Snowden is a step in the wrong direction for regaining our trust, because.....our constitution says, we are innocent until proven guilty, tho many in our government have also forgotten this
He then went on to say he has represented others who stood against government policy, all classified, where in some cases we heard about it, and others where we hadnt heard about it, and his clients won, and therefore no leaks were surfaced.
But, to condemn Snowden just because he didnt come to this lawyer is what we see once again from our system, and some things need to be known and discussed, so our leaders can hear from us, and if such a person "wins" the peoples arguments side, or if this is also found unconstitutional, how then can a whistleblower be guilty?
Prosecuting Snowden is a step in the wrong direction for regaining our trust, because.....our constitution says, we are innocent until proven guilty, tho many in our government have also forgotten this
Found this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfFsy0w_-Hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfFsy0w_-Hk
dogman_1234
June 14, 2013 12:45:59 PM
musical marv
June 14, 2013 7:40:12 PM
dogman_1234 said:
I do worry about my country, I worry that my people are subecting themselves to ignorance, to social engineering. We are the terrorists in the governments eyes...not those rag-head @$$-hats.What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.
This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."
We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.
The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.
Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.
We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.
I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.
"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."
Can I say I told you so?
I so told everyone so. Just down in the paranoid penguin parade.
Us crazy open-sorcerers trying to get PATRIOT revoked.
Last few paragraphs are the most important ones.
So the EFF was right. Surprise surprise.
Before we dive into our analysis, it’s worth noting that this bill has faced a storm of controversy since EFF and other civil liberties advocates launched a week of action 11 days ago. This week, a group of security experts voiced concerns about the civil liberties concerns in the bill. The Free Market Coalition criticized the bill as “unduly expanding federal power, undermining freedom of contract, and harming U.S. competitiveness in the technology sector.” Presidential candidate Ron Paul was equally critical, calling CISPA “Big Brother writ large.” And President Obama has sided with the civil liberties groups. In a statement issued yesterday, the Administration stated that “Without clear legal protections and independent oversight, information sharing legislation will undermine the public's trust in the Government as well as in the Internet.” It also warned that if CISPA were to arrive at the President’s desk in its current state, “his senior advisers would recommend that he veto the bill.”
Minimization Retention and Notification Amendment This amendment has a somewhat misleading title because it does little to actually “minimize” the retention of sensitive user data. In short, the amendment states that if a department or agency receives information that actually isn’t related to cyber security threats, they shall “notify” the entity that gave them the information. This amendment also says that data won’t be kept for purposes other than what has been outlined in the bill—but doesn’t actually narrow the expansive reasons that data can be kept.
The bill also states that the government “may” choose to “undertake reasonable efforts to limit the impact on privacy and civil liberties.” There’s no mandate to do so and no explanation of what constitutes “reasonable efforts.”
Definitions Amendment—We’ve been highly critical of the overbroad ways in which “cyber security” is defined in the bill. We’re concerned that typical privacy-protective measures like using Tor or pseudonyms might be deemed “cyber threat information” under the vague definitions of CISPA. The good news is that this amendment excludes intelligence pertaining to efforts to gain unauthorized access that “solely involve violations of consumer terms of service or consumer licensing agreements and do not otherwise constitute unauthorized access.” This is a step in the right direction because at least signing up for Facebook with a pseudonym is unlikely to get you reported to the FBI for attempting to gain “unauthorized access.”
Unfortunately, this amendment doesn’t address the serious problems with the vague definitions. Even after amendments, “Cybersecurity system" defines the system that “cybersecurity providers” or self-protected entities use to monitor and defend against cyber threats. This is a “system” intended to safeguard “a system or network.” The definition could mean anything—a Local Area Network, a Wide Area Network, a microchip, a website, online service, or a DVD. It might easily be stretched to be a catch-all term with no meaning. For example, it is unclear whether DRM on a DVD constitutes a “cybersecurity system.” And such a “cybersecurity system” is defined to protect a system or network from “efforts to degrade, disrupt or destroy”—language that is similarly too broad. Degrading a network could be construed to mean using a privacy-enhancing technology like Tor, or a p2p protocol, or simply downloading too many files.
Liability Amendment Liability exemption is one of the biggest problems with this bill. As we wrote in a post published yesterday:
the bill creates expansive legal immunity that makes companies and the government largely unaccountable to users. The bill provides “good faith” immunity for using “cybersecurity systems” to obtain information, for not acting on information that a company learns, and for making any decisions based on the information they learn. If a company learns about a security flaw, fails to fix it, and users' information is misused or stolen, companies cannot be held liable as long as the company acted “in good faith” according to CISPA. Companies “acting in good faith” are also excused from all liability for engaging in potential countermeasures, even if they hurt innocent parties.
So what did Rogers do to address these egregious issues? He changed the phrase “for using cybersecurity systems or sharing information in accordance with this section” to “for using cybersecurity systems to identify or obtain cyber threat information or for sharing such information.”
Basically, he didn’t fix it at all.
Limitation Amendment Frankly, this amendment doesn’t address any of the civil liberties concerns. It states: “Nothing in this section shall be construed to provide additional authority to, or modify an existing authority of, any entity to use a cybersecurity system owned or controlled by the Federal Government on a private-sector system or network to protect such private-sector system or network.’’ We suspect that this amendment is attempting to address the issue of black-box style network intrusion detection systems like Einstein being placed on private networks. However, this amendment doesn’t actually prohibit privately owned versions of Einstein being placed inside of networks – it just said that there’s “no additional authority” to do so.
Use Amendment The final amendment has to deal with the usage of data collected under cybersecurity programs. Under the current version of CISPA, although data collected by companies may only be shared for “cybersecurity” purposes, the government can use it for unrelated purposes because the bill allows the government to use it for “national security purposes." Provided “at least one significant purpose” is a cybersecurity or national security purpose, it may be used for other unrelated purposes. The only other restriction on the data is that it not be used for “regulatory” purposes—a term the bill leaves undefined.
The amendment narrows this usage—but not nearly enough. It still allows data collected under cyber security programs to be used for cybersecurity purposes, for the investigation and prosecution of cybersecurity crimes, to protect individuals from death or serious bodily harm, for protecting minors from child pornography or other sexual exploitation or serious threats to their physical safety, and for national security.
“National security” is at best a nebulous term—and, at worst, a catch-all excuse for government snooping. As we’ve explained in our recent post on the topic, “the amorphous phrase 'national security' has invaded many arenas of government action, and has been used to justify much activity that did not involve legitimate terrorist threats. The most obvious (and odious) example is the unfortunately named USA-PATRIOT Act, a law that was sold to the American public as essential to combating terrorism, but which has overwhelmingly been applied to ordinary American citizens never even suspected of terrorism.”
There are several other amendments that are going to be considered, but it’s unclear whether those will be successful and EFF doesn't believe those amendments can ameliorate the core civil liberties concerns with this legislation—namely, the overriding of all existing privacy law to allow companies to share sensitive user data with the government. For now, we’re calling on the Internet to continue to call, email, and tweet at their Representatives urging them to support privacy-protective amendments and oppose CISPA as a whole.
Source: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/04/even-rogers-amend...
Bolded the important for you
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/238033-50-threats-fre...
I so told everyone so. Just down in the paranoid penguin parade.
Us crazy open-sorcerers trying to get PATRIOT revoked.
Last few paragraphs are the most important ones.
So the EFF was right. Surprise surprise.
amdfangirl said:
Quote:
This week, a flurry of amendments were introduced to try to salvage the Cyber Information Sharing and Protection Act (CISPA), a “cybersecurity” bill moving through the house that’s been criticized as giving companies free rein to spy on personal communications and pass unredacted content (like emails) to the government. Though numerous amendments were suggested, a package of five amendments were put together by the bill’s primary author Mike Rogers (R-MI) and are likely to get accepted without much debate. Below is an overview of what’s in the Rogers package and how it fails to address the grave civil liberties concerns inherent in CISPA.Before we dive into our analysis, it’s worth noting that this bill has faced a storm of controversy since EFF and other civil liberties advocates launched a week of action 11 days ago. This week, a group of security experts voiced concerns about the civil liberties concerns in the bill. The Free Market Coalition criticized the bill as “unduly expanding federal power, undermining freedom of contract, and harming U.S. competitiveness in the technology sector.” Presidential candidate Ron Paul was equally critical, calling CISPA “Big Brother writ large.” And President Obama has sided with the civil liberties groups. In a statement issued yesterday, the Administration stated that “Without clear legal protections and independent oversight, information sharing legislation will undermine the public's trust in the Government as well as in the Internet.” It also warned that if CISPA were to arrive at the President’s desk in its current state, “his senior advisers would recommend that he veto the bill.”
Minimization Retention and Notification Amendment This amendment has a somewhat misleading title because it does little to actually “minimize” the retention of sensitive user data. In short, the amendment states that if a department or agency receives information that actually isn’t related to cyber security threats, they shall “notify” the entity that gave them the information. This amendment also says that data won’t be kept for purposes other than what has been outlined in the bill—but doesn’t actually narrow the expansive reasons that data can be kept.
The bill also states that the government “may” choose to “undertake reasonable efforts to limit the impact on privacy and civil liberties.” There’s no mandate to do so and no explanation of what constitutes “reasonable efforts.”
Definitions Amendment—We’ve been highly critical of the overbroad ways in which “cyber security” is defined in the bill. We’re concerned that typical privacy-protective measures like using Tor or pseudonyms might be deemed “cyber threat information” under the vague definitions of CISPA. The good news is that this amendment excludes intelligence pertaining to efforts to gain unauthorized access that “solely involve violations of consumer terms of service or consumer licensing agreements and do not otherwise constitute unauthorized access.” This is a step in the right direction because at least signing up for Facebook with a pseudonym is unlikely to get you reported to the FBI for attempting to gain “unauthorized access.”
Unfortunately, this amendment doesn’t address the serious problems with the vague definitions. Even after amendments, “Cybersecurity system" defines the system that “cybersecurity providers” or self-protected entities use to monitor and defend against cyber threats. This is a “system” intended to safeguard “a system or network.” The definition could mean anything—a Local Area Network, a Wide Area Network, a microchip, a website, online service, or a DVD. It might easily be stretched to be a catch-all term with no meaning. For example, it is unclear whether DRM on a DVD constitutes a “cybersecurity system.” And such a “cybersecurity system” is defined to protect a system or network from “efforts to degrade, disrupt or destroy”—language that is similarly too broad. Degrading a network could be construed to mean using a privacy-enhancing technology like Tor, or a p2p protocol, or simply downloading too many files.
Liability Amendment Liability exemption is one of the biggest problems with this bill. As we wrote in a post published yesterday:
the bill creates expansive legal immunity that makes companies and the government largely unaccountable to users. The bill provides “good faith” immunity for using “cybersecurity systems” to obtain information, for not acting on information that a company learns, and for making any decisions based on the information they learn. If a company learns about a security flaw, fails to fix it, and users' information is misused or stolen, companies cannot be held liable as long as the company acted “in good faith” according to CISPA. Companies “acting in good faith” are also excused from all liability for engaging in potential countermeasures, even if they hurt innocent parties.
So what did Rogers do to address these egregious issues? He changed the phrase “for using cybersecurity systems or sharing information in accordance with this section” to “for using cybersecurity systems to identify or obtain cyber threat information or for sharing such information.”
Basically, he didn’t fix it at all.
Limitation Amendment Frankly, this amendment doesn’t address any of the civil liberties concerns. It states: “Nothing in this section shall be construed to provide additional authority to, or modify an existing authority of, any entity to use a cybersecurity system owned or controlled by the Federal Government on a private-sector system or network to protect such private-sector system or network.’’ We suspect that this amendment is attempting to address the issue of black-box style network intrusion detection systems like Einstein being placed on private networks. However, this amendment doesn’t actually prohibit privately owned versions of Einstein being placed inside of networks – it just said that there’s “no additional authority” to do so.
Use Amendment The final amendment has to deal with the usage of data collected under cybersecurity programs. Under the current version of CISPA, although data collected by companies may only be shared for “cybersecurity” purposes, the government can use it for unrelated purposes because the bill allows the government to use it for “national security purposes." Provided “at least one significant purpose” is a cybersecurity or national security purpose, it may be used for other unrelated purposes. The only other restriction on the data is that it not be used for “regulatory” purposes—a term the bill leaves undefined.
The amendment narrows this usage—but not nearly enough. It still allows data collected under cyber security programs to be used for cybersecurity purposes, for the investigation and prosecution of cybersecurity crimes, to protect individuals from death or serious bodily harm, for protecting minors from child pornography or other sexual exploitation or serious threats to their physical safety, and for national security.
“National security” is at best a nebulous term—and, at worst, a catch-all excuse for government snooping. As we’ve explained in our recent post on the topic, “the amorphous phrase 'national security' has invaded many arenas of government action, and has been used to justify much activity that did not involve legitimate terrorist threats. The most obvious (and odious) example is the unfortunately named USA-PATRIOT Act, a law that was sold to the American public as essential to combating terrorism, but which has overwhelmingly been applied to ordinary American citizens never even suspected of terrorism.”
There are several other amendments that are going to be considered, but it’s unclear whether those will be successful and EFF doesn't believe those amendments can ameliorate the core civil liberties concerns with this legislation—namely, the overriding of all existing privacy law to allow companies to share sensitive user data with the government. For now, we’re calling on the Internet to continue to call, email, and tweet at their Representatives urging them to support privacy-protective amendments and oppose CISPA as a whole.
Source: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/04/even-rogers-amend...
Bolded the important for you
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/238033-50-threats-fre...
wanamingo said:
riser said:
Sometimes, I can't sleep at night because someone on the internet is wrong.

Gotta love XKCD.
@Oldman Chill out its the news and leisure forum.
FACT: The internet is full of rubbish and there are few gems out there.
You need a decent education and a decent upbringing.
Do we really need more paranid tripe ?
Really?
Starting a thread with references to Nazis and Israel?
Seriously ... If I were Jewish and I deleted every thread with a reference to Israel or the Nazis the internet would likely shrink by 30% ... add the extremist Islammic rubbish and all that would be left would be a bucketload of porn, anime, and illegal music, tv and Glenn Beck videos ... wait no ... I'd delete them too.
wiki is full of twisted rubbish and since nobody pays to access reputable databases, encyclopedias, and one can't find (due to the search engines being bought out by advertisers of penis enhancing medication) anything of worth inside the first pages on any given search its just time to give up.
I'm depressed now so I am going back to Freelancer ...
dogman_1234
June 17, 2013 1:26:20 PM
Oldmangamer_73 said:
dogman_1234 said:
Do we not sail on a ship of fools?Reynod said:
wanamingo said:
riser said:
Sometimes, I can't sleep at night because someone on the internet is wrong.

Gotta love XKCD.
@Oldman Chill out its the news and leisure forum.
FACT: The internet is full of rubbish and there are few gems out there.
You need a decent education and a decent upbringing.
Do we really need more paranid tripe ?
Really?
Starting a thread with references to Nazis and Israel?
Seriously ... If I were Jewish and I deleted every thread with a reference to Israel or the Nazis the internet would likely shrink by 30% ... add the extremist Islammic rubbish and all that would be left would be a bucketload of porn, anime, and illegal music, tv and Glenn Beck videos ... wait no ... I'd delete them too.
wiki is full of twisted rubbish and since nobody pays to access reputable databases, encyclopedias, and one can't find (due to the search engines being bought out by advertisers of penis enhancing medication) anything of worth inside the first pages on any given search its just time to give up.
I'm depressed now so I am going back to Freelancer ...
Can I give another vote to reynod for being one of the most funny SOB s here please??
p.s. why can't we have a digital archive of encyclopedias and dictionaries from around the world? Reputable sources that anyone can access but NOT alter.
Free books? Free education!??!
SOCIALISM!!!!!
That's why. No pay, no way...
musical marv
June 17, 2013 6:22:01 PM
My two cents:
This is absolutely not surprising if you look at basic human nature. There are two major reasons to want to be in a position of power in a group. The first reason is to obtain personal power and influence by using the power of the group to benefit yourself and your backers. The second is to fight with the dominant group in power to decrease their power/influence over you and your supporters. Many folks here also get the side benefit of increasing their own personal influence by being notoriously noisy in opposition and that's really why they do it.
The power and influence of government is cyclical. Governments start out small and with limited powers but then grow as the citizens want the government to "do more" to help them. This attracts the power seekers who continually increase the power of the government as it benefits themselves. The massive government then becomes too unwieldy and collapses under its own weight or becomes too onerous to the citizens who then overthrow it. A small, limited government gets installed in reaction to the excesses of the previous huge government. This new government then undergoes scope creep yet again as people want it to "do more" and the cycle continues. The founders knew this and tried to put a hard limit on the expansion of the government to stop the cycle since that hadn't really been done before and they thought it might work, or at least was better than the alternative. But even that effort still fell victim to the cyclical nature of governments due to human nature.
We are currently in the "massive onerous government" stage of the cycle. The current government is mainly comprised of power seekers which is obvious in looking at the reaction to this PRISM scandal. You see a bunch of folks from both parties supporting the PRISM program as it increases their power. They viciously attack anybody who opposes them. That's why the Tea Party was targeted by the Democrat-controlled government in the IRS scandal and in coordinated media attacks during the election- they were an organized oppose-the-power-seekers group. That's why some Republicans are implying that folks who oppose the PRISM program are aiding and abetting terrorism. Our government being huge and dominated by power seekers explains why little actually changes when there are large numbers of people voted out of government and new ones take their place- the newly elected are mostly the same kind of power seeker as the people they are replacing.
The only way anything will change is when the government collapses under its own weight by running out of money to borrow to fund itself. That certainly seems to be the way things are headed as the current power seekers in power have realized that doing the "soft" Big Brother state and not getting too onerous like past states did is the best way to prolong their reign of power. They'd also like to be able to safely retire if they are still in power when the party ends rather than being voted out of life with a plurality of bullets. My guess is that the significant shrinking part of the cycle happens in 20-50 years depending on just how much power the power-seekers cling to when we are in serious financial trouble. If they keep going full speed ahead like they are now, it will be a pretty quick collapse in around 20 years. My prediction is that we follow Europe's path starting in about 10 years when we end up Europe's current situation of a do-or-die debt crunch situation. There will be some significant decreases in the size and scope of government that accrued since the post-WWI era over the subsequent several decades, dictated by financial constraints. Then we will end up with a smaller government for a couple of generations until the majority of the populace forgot what happened in the early-mid 21st century and again wants the government to "do more."
Unfortunately to most of the folks reading this who are probably between the ages of 15 and 35- you are very possibly going to spend most of your productive adult life in the crap part of the governmental cycle. It really started in 2001 with the massive power grab from the 9/11 related laws and the generally continually poor economy since the tech bubble burst that same year. However your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will probably be able to live in a better situation so there is some hope for the future. TEACH THEM WELL so they have half a chance of remembering what happened during our lifetimes and push the screwing it up back a generation or so.
This is absolutely not surprising if you look at basic human nature. There are two major reasons to want to be in a position of power in a group. The first reason is to obtain personal power and influence by using the power of the group to benefit yourself and your backers. The second is to fight with the dominant group in power to decrease their power/influence over you and your supporters. Many folks here also get the side benefit of increasing their own personal influence by being notoriously noisy in opposition and that's really why they do it.
The power and influence of government is cyclical. Governments start out small and with limited powers but then grow as the citizens want the government to "do more" to help them. This attracts the power seekers who continually increase the power of the government as it benefits themselves. The massive government then becomes too unwieldy and collapses under its own weight or becomes too onerous to the citizens who then overthrow it. A small, limited government gets installed in reaction to the excesses of the previous huge government. This new government then undergoes scope creep yet again as people want it to "do more" and the cycle continues. The founders knew this and tried to put a hard limit on the expansion of the government to stop the cycle since that hadn't really been done before and they thought it might work, or at least was better than the alternative. But even that effort still fell victim to the cyclical nature of governments due to human nature.
We are currently in the "massive onerous government" stage of the cycle. The current government is mainly comprised of power seekers which is obvious in looking at the reaction to this PRISM scandal. You see a bunch of folks from both parties supporting the PRISM program as it increases their power. They viciously attack anybody who opposes them. That's why the Tea Party was targeted by the Democrat-controlled government in the IRS scandal and in coordinated media attacks during the election- they were an organized oppose-the-power-seekers group. That's why some Republicans are implying that folks who oppose the PRISM program are aiding and abetting terrorism. Our government being huge and dominated by power seekers explains why little actually changes when there are large numbers of people voted out of government and new ones take their place- the newly elected are mostly the same kind of power seeker as the people they are replacing.
The only way anything will change is when the government collapses under its own weight by running out of money to borrow to fund itself. That certainly seems to be the way things are headed as the current power seekers in power have realized that doing the "soft" Big Brother state and not getting too onerous like past states did is the best way to prolong their reign of power. They'd also like to be able to safely retire if they are still in power when the party ends rather than being voted out of life with a plurality of bullets. My guess is that the significant shrinking part of the cycle happens in 20-50 years depending on just how much power the power-seekers cling to when we are in serious financial trouble. If they keep going full speed ahead like they are now, it will be a pretty quick collapse in around 20 years. My prediction is that we follow Europe's path starting in about 10 years when we end up Europe's current situation of a do-or-die debt crunch situation. There will be some significant decreases in the size and scope of government that accrued since the post-WWI era over the subsequent several decades, dictated by financial constraints. Then we will end up with a smaller government for a couple of generations until the majority of the populace forgot what happened in the early-mid 21st century and again wants the government to "do more."
Unfortunately to most of the folks reading this who are probably between the ages of 15 and 35- you are very possibly going to spend most of your productive adult life in the crap part of the governmental cycle. It really started in 2001 with the massive power grab from the 9/11 related laws and the generally continually poor economy since the tech bubble burst that same year. However your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will probably be able to live in a better situation so there is some hope for the future. TEACH THEM WELL so they have half a chance of remembering what happened during our lifetimes and push the screwing it up back a generation or so.
dogman_1234
June 17, 2013 10:33:15 PM
Here is a question for the THG community: I don't like people spying on me. I vale privacy. However, it seems as though we lump together criminal/wrongful activity with privacy. IIf I have nothing to hide, why do I need to wory about the government spying on me? I am not doing anything worong. They won't use my information against me? Anyone who challenges this is a conspiracy theorist. However, I am not a conspiracy theorist. Bunch'a loonies,( no, rey, we are not talking about money here,) who think the NWO is here to destroy us...etc...What I see is an overcomplicated attempt to stop 'terrorists'. What scares me is what is the legal defenition of 'terrorist'? Anyone who inflicts terror! so, by that logic...if the government fears the people, then we are the terrorists? Right?
Talks amongst yourselves!
Talks amongst yourselves!
dogman_1234 said:
Here is a question for the THG community: I don't like people spying on me. I vale privacy. However, it seems as though we lump together criminal/wrongful activity with privacy. IIf I have nothing to hide, why do I need to wory about the government spying on me? I am not doing anything worong. They won't use my information against me? Anyone who challenges this is a conspiracy theorist. However, I am not a conspiracy theorist. Bunch'a loonies,( no, rey, we are not talking about money here,) who think the NWO is here to destroy us...etc...What I see is an overcomplicated attempt to stop 'terrorists'. What scares me is what is the legal defenition of 'terrorist'? Anyone who inflicts terror! so, by that logic...if the government fears the people, then we are the terrorists? Right?Talks amongst yourselves!
The issue is that the government isn't only interested in surveillance to identify criminal activity. They are clearly interested in surveillance of perfectly legal activity for their political purposes. The reporter wiretapping scandal involving the Associated Press, Fox News, and now it sounds like CBS as well, identify this. The government wanted to do that surveillance in order to be able to pre-emptively deflect and/or discredit any news that came out that made it look bad (in this case, with the "green energy" and Benghazi scandals). So you may not be doing anything illegal but if you do things they merely don't like such as support an opposition candidate or yourself run for office and oppose them, they could very easily go back through their records and find something that you said/wrote/texted/posted at some point in the past, take it way out of context, blow it way out of proportion, and absolutely beat you over the head with it to take the public's eyes off of the real policy issues and turn them to some non-"scandal" about you until you drop out of the race. I call it the Herman Cain effect, although I don't know if Cain actually had any wiretapping done to him. But the premise is the same. You absolutely have the right to oppose the current elected officials and their spying on you in order to perform a character assassination lest you ever oppose them is a very chilling effect on the political system, not to mention unconstitutional. THAT'S why you have something to "hide" even though you are not doing anything actually illegal.
The whole "conspiracy theorist" bit is yet more propaganda put out there by the government for its own benefit. They want to automatically discredit anybody who opposes them so they can get away with as much as possible. By the way, something is not a conspiracy theory when it has been demonstrated to be very much true on multiple occasions.
dogman_1234 said:
Here is a question for the THG community: I don't like people spying on me. I vale privacy. However, it seems as though we lump together criminal/wrongful activity with privacy. IIf I have nothing to hide, why do I need to wory about the government spying on me? I am not doing anything worong. They won't use my information against me? Anyone who challenges this is a conspiracy theorist. However, I am not a conspiracy theorist. Bunch'a loonies,( no, rey, we are not talking about money here,) who think the NWO is here to destroy us...etc...What I see is an overcomplicated attempt to stop 'terrorists'. What scares me is what is the legal defenition of 'terrorist'? Anyone who inflicts terror! so, by that logic...if the government fears the people, then we are the terrorists? Right?Talks amongst yourselves!
What if you are doing something like many other people and the government didn't like it after spying on your "nothing to hide" scenario. Then they pass a law making it illegal and come after you?
My buddy used to buy his cigarettes from the UAE. One day, Homeland Security sent him a letter stating if he ordered any more items from the UAE they would prosecute them. He was elminating the middle man when ordering his cigarettes and the US Gov't didn't like their loss of revenue on that one.
riser said:
What if you are doing something like many other people and the government didn't like it after spying on your "nothing to hide" scenario. Then they pass a law making it illegal and come after you?
My buddy used to buy his cigarettes from the UAE. One day, Homeland Security sent him a letter stating if he ordered any more items from the UAE they would prosecute them. He was elminating the middle man when ordering his cigarettes and the US Gov't didn't like their loss of revenue on that one.
Your buddy probably was already violating import duty laws and Homeland Security simply found out about it. If he was being 100% legal, he should have replied to DHS and told them that what he was doing is legal and they are very free to lose any case they would take up against him. The only odd thing here is that it was DHS trying to enforce customs laws instead of the agency that is actually in charge of this, the Immigration and Customs Service.
There was nothing illegal about it. They later on passed a law against it because so many people started buying cigarettes when the bans and increased taxes went into effect. This would have been around 2002-2003 time frame. That's just it, they pass laws when they find out people have other options around it.
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