First Build, Lots of Questions!

[A Wooden Fork]

This is my first build, and as such, I have quite a few questions. My build is as follows:
Case: Corsair 500R
Power Supply: Corsair AX850
CPU: Intel 4670k
Motherboard: ASUS Z87 Pro
RAM: 2X4GB G. Skill Ripjaws X DDR3-1866Mhz
*Edit* GPU: ASUS GTX 660 TI 3GB-DDR5 *Edit*
OS: Windows 8 Professional

These are the things I plan to buy upfront. I'm going to salvage the rest or upgrade later. These salvages/upgrades include the hard drive, an SSD, keyboard, mouse, speakers, monitor, etc. I plan to use a fairly new Hitachi 7200 2TB hard drive, and I'll probably buy a 64GB SSD in the near future (I'll boot my OS from the SSD.) Before I start buying, are there any fundamental compatibility issues?

This, however, is not my main question. Since this is my first build, I have no idea how many fans I need. Do I need a discrete CPU cooler? Also, should I replace the stock Corsair fans? I've heard that stock fans are usually pretty bad. Is this true of Corsair?

The case comes with a 200mm side panel fan, two front-mounted 120mm fans, and one more 120mm fan mounted on the back.

My graphics card is high-end, very large, and will definitely be the most expensive part of my build. I don't plan on overclocking my CPU or GPU, but it is a remote possibility (This is the reason for the 850W power supply.) Will I have heat problems?

This machine will be used for gaming mostly. I'd like to run everything on the highest settings at 1920 X 1200 (and maybe run a second display at ~1680 X 1050.) I'll be playing games such as Planetside 2, Skyrim, Dota 2, Counter-Strike: GO, etc.

I've heard that Haswell isn't really worth the cost, but Microcenter is offering the 4670k for only $3 more than the 3570k, so I decided to go with it.

The total price of the build is approximately $1250. Any suggestions for lowering cost while maintaining similar performance? Any parts I'm missing?

 

[TenPc]

A 64gb SSD is rather old hat, they came out nearly 4 years ago, better to acquire one that is in excess of 250gb considering the hi-tech motherboard.

2 x4gb ram, that's rather low end, the motherboard might actualy be way too powerful for you to "control" with low end parts and components.

You'd best consider investing in the better quality parts with the proper requirements, probably better to use the QVL list for the hardware requirements to ensure proper compatibility.

z87-prop

 

[A Wooden Fork]

My preference on the SSD is simply to have something to boot off of for faster access times with Windows, and I might put a few games on it. I am hindered by cost. The most I would get for an SSD would be 120GB. The 250GB is just too expensive.

For the RAM, I've heard it should be bought in pairs of sticks. I don't think I need 16GB; would a 1 X 8GB stick be better?

Please elaborate on this:
"The motherboard might actually be way too powerful for you to "control" with low end parts and components."

Thanks for the response!!

 

[TenPc]

http://promos.asus.com/us/Z87/

Lots of games do take up space on the primary root hdd, using a 64gb hdd as your primary Os drive will fill up rather quickly, lots of Application Data is stored on the root drive as well as updates and system files for games, programs, and music, photos, movies and other media.

Older hardware seems to perform best on motherboards that are more in line with the PCIe bandwidtth, the CPU speed, ram preferwences and video card.

As long as you stick with the guidelines and use hardware that is compatible without using backward compatibility then you are good to go.
The 2 x 4gb ram seems to be adeqaute for mostly simple purposes, Windows 8 is a memory hog, you might want to consider filling the other two slots with ram.

Specifications -
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Z87PRO/#specifications

Always use a pair of dual ram, using only one stick of a pair would give you only half its speed and volume.

 

[A Wooden Fork]

Thanks! Very helpful!

I think I will go with a larger SSD now. I'm over my $1200 budget and I'd like to stay close to the $1200-1300 range. Can I get by on ~120GB instead of ~250GB? Should I get an SSD that connects via SATA or a more expensive one that uses a PCI slot?

I guess I'll upgrade to 16GB RAM, too. 2 X 8 GB or 4 X 4GB?

When you mention "older hardware," are you simply referring to the 2 TB HDD I'll be salvaging?

 

[drewhoo]

I think your build is fine. Video games can't tak advantage 8GB of RAM anyway, and 1600 Mhz speed (one notch down from 1866Mhz) is cheaper and still wouldn't be the bottleneck in your system. As for SSD, just get a Samsung 840 series--capacity doesn't really matter with regards to speed. There might be small differences, but you'll still be reading at like 400Mb/s.

I would shift money away from the processor and toward the GPU. Get a 670 or 770 if possible. That will have a greater impact on your gaming experience.

PSU is overpowered. I have a 750W Seasonic Gold Plus for $110, and I'm running a 4.6Ghz OC on my processor, a huge OC on my GPU, 8 HDDs, a hardware RAID card, and 4 case fans not including a 2-fan CPU cooler, so I think it's safe to say that 850W is overkill forreal. Save some money and get a 750W PSU.

If you think you want to SLI, I'll offer you reasons why it's not a great idea (for starters, LGA 1150 only has 20 PCIe lanes, and 32 are required for true SLI)

TenPc, could you qualify this statement? Why wouldn't that MoBo work with the components he listed? Please be more specific than saying that it is "old tech" because TMK, that's not old tech.

2 x4gb ram, that's rather low end, the motherboard might actualy be way too powerful for you to "control" with low end parts and components.

You'd best consider investing in the better quality parts with the proper requirements, probably better to use the QVL list for the hardware requirements to ensure proper compatibility.

To that end, I think your MoBo is about 200% more than what you need for the specs you listed. This MoBo would serve your purposes just as well: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157383

edit: TenPc, could you also provide a link for this "Always use a pair of dual ram, using only one stick of a pair would give you only half its speed and volume." I've been wondering about this, but I've never seen benchmarks that prove it one way or another.

 

[A Wooden Fork]

Thanks a ton! This has forced me to do a lot more research (a good thing). For the most part, I understand your wording and appreciate that you took time to explain things clearly and simply. I do have a few questions, though.

I would like to learn overclocking, and the 4670K seems like the most cost-effective way to do it. As aforementioned, Microcenter is offering this processor dirt cheap, considering it just hit the market. It retails around $250, and they are selling it for just $197. The 3570K is just about this price, and that's what I was going to go with before Haswell came out a week ago. However, when I realized I could get such a deal on Haswell, I couldn't resist. Any suggestions for a different, cheaper processor, given this information?

I was looking at the GTX 770 for a long time, but the difference in cost is ~$120!

I'd like to keep the 16 GB of RAM, as my dad recently informed me that he'd like to borrow my machine to do some photo editing with Lightroom, as well some video editing ( I'm happy to share with my dad because he's been so helpful and supportive with this build, and well, he's my dad).

Anyways, I have 6 GB (No idea what speed, sorry) in this machine currently, and when I run games such as Dota 2, I have to close all of my Chrome tabs and other open programs in order to free up some memory. This is a 2-3 year-old HP (Store-bought), so I'm wondering whether or not Dota actually needs that RAM. This machine has AMD HD 4200 graphics, so it doesn't have the best capability (hence the desire to upgrade). I'd imagine that Dota 2 puts some strain on these integrated graphics. Under heavy loads, do the integrated AMD HD 4200 graphics draw on the 6 GB of RAM I have? If so, then I think that will be resolved with a discrete graphics card, which will have its own 2 or 3 GB of VRAM, enabling it to stop pestering my real memory.

But back to the photo and video editing, would the 16 GB be worth it in that regard? If you don't think so, I can save about $50 there and put that toward a 670 or 770 as you recommended. After doing some further research, I do agree with you on the 1600 instead of 1866Mhz.

I guess I agree with you on the PSU, too. I will look into 750 Watt supplies. Is that as low as I should go, or would I still be safe to go with a 600 W or 650 W, for example?

I feel kind of attached to the Z87 Pro. I know it's expensive, but it offers features that just aren't present in cheaper boards (at least that I've seen, but maybe I'm reading the specs incorrectly). These include: DisplayPort compatibility, USB BIOS Flashback, and an included networking card. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these specs (I probably am wrong), but I didn't see these on the Asrock you suggested, and they're features I think are worth the money, especially integrated Wireless and DisplayPort compatibility. Also, the Asrock is an H87, not Z87. Does this have major consequences? Doesn't it restrict overclocking?

SLI... that's the use of multiple GPUs, right? I definitely don't have budget for multiple GPUs, so don't worry about that. On the topic of GPUs, can you give me some basic information about the differences in GPUs, their clock speeds, VRAM, and their respective models? (Preferably just on Nvidia; I'm not really interested in AMD.) I've looked at ASUS' 660 TI OC (3 GB VRAM), and compared to many other cards on pcpartpicker.com, it seems to have superior ratings and reviews. Are the performance increases on a 770 worth the leap in cost?

Storage... Is a 120 GB drive enough to store my OS and application data? I found a Kingston that's 120 GB, and it only costs $85. Would you recommend the Samsung 840 series over this?

Okay, I know this is getting wordy, and I apologize for making it so long, so I'll wind it down.

Essentially, I don't want a computer that keeps me where I'm at when it comes to technical experience. I'd like to grow in my technical abilities and learn procedures such as overclocking and tweaking items in the BIOS. I really appreciate your time and hope to hear back from you! I know I seem close-minded and defensive, but I am very open to suggestions. I just wanted to provide the reasoning that lead me to select certain parts. Thanks!

 

[drewhoo]

Re: Overclocking, read this review of the Haswell architecture: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/core-i7-4770k-haswell-review,review-32699-10.html
Haswell isn't doing very much that Sandy/Ivy bridge wasn't already, and the likely reason for that discount is that enthusiasts who are most likely to overclock K series CPUs aren't very interested in the Haswell CPUs because Haswell OCs differently from Ivy/Sandy Bridge. I don't understand it fully, so I won't attempt to explain, but that article should give you an idea.

If you were to go with an Ivy Bridge CPU, you would be using an LGA1155 socket, which means you would never be able to upgrade; Intel is only making new CPUs for the LGA1150 socket now. So there is a compelling reason to get a Haswell CPU. And since the K series is within $15 of the cheapest model currently available in that lineup, go for it. The only cheaper processor that would be worth it might be a Haswell i3, which has not yet been released.

To see a detailed explanation of how Adobe programs interact with different hardware configurations, read this document: http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/creativesuite/production/cs6/pdfs/adobe-hardware-performance-whitepaper.pdf

Depending on the amount of editing your dad does, you might consider buying 2x4GB of ram and see if your Dad is limited by that amount before purchasing the next two sticks or ask your Dad to shell out $50 for the two additional sticks =) RAM is very easy to install once you've made your computer as long as you don't have an enormous aftermarket cooler that blocks it. There is a right and wrong way to install only two DIMMs when you have 4 DIMM sockets, so read your motherboard's manual carefully for this information.

My goodness. An upgrade to a GTX 660/670 from integrated graphics? You're going to enjoy that.

Under heavy loads, do the integrated AMD HD 4200 graphics draw on the 6 GB of RAM I have? If so, then I think that will be resolved with a discrete graphics card, which will have its own 2 or 3 GB of VRAM, enabling it to stop pestering my real memory.

I think you are correct about this.

But back to the photo and video editing, would the 16 GB be worth it in that regard? If you don't think so, I can save about $50 there and put that toward a 670 or 770 as you recommended.

That is definitely money better spent on your build. If your Dad is editing video in Adobe Premiere Pro, there is a workaround that allows you to enable GPU acceleration with any Nvidea GPU that has CUDA cores. Whichever one you get may already be on the list. My 560 Ti is not on the "approved list" but it accelerates rendering like a beast after the workaround.

I guess I agree with you on the PSU, too. I will look into 750 Watt supplies. Is that as low as I should go, or would I still be safe to go with a 600 W or 650 W, for example?

I think you could go lower than 750W. There's a bunch of hoopla about how PSU wattages are calculated. You don't have to worry about this if you get a reputable brand like Seasonic. Use this calculator for more info: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

DisplayPort compatibility - doesn't matter. Your monitor will be plugged into the displayport/hdmi/dvi port on your GPU anyway.

USB BIOS Flashback - are you sure you would need this? I've never had to flash my BIOS. There's not much to do in BIOS that can't be accomplished in the UEFI, which was invented to replace BIOS. When I need to change the overclock on my processor, change the storage mode on an SSD, configure the boot order, look at fan RPM, I can do it very easily from the UEFI. Read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface

Also, the Asrock is an H87, not Z87. Does this have major consequences? Doesn't it restrict overclocking?

Yes you cannot overclock the CPU with an Hxx chipset. You can overclock the GPU with an Hxx, though. Try this Z87: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157372. It is in the same line as the Z68 Extreme3 which I've used for a stable overclock on my i5 for 2.5 years now. You could even go cheaper within the ASRock lineup.

In comparison to the ASUS Z87-PRO I don't see any meaningful differences between the two models, except that the more expensive one will look prettier in a case with a window until it is covered up by an aftermarket CPU cooler =)

The important things to look for in a motherboard is
1) Does it have a PCIe 3.0 x16 slot? (the answer is yes for every Z87 chipset model)
2) Does it have enough USB3.0/2.0 ports for your devices (I'm thinking the answer is yes for every model; each also comes with headers that attach to the USB ports on the case you buy.)
3) Does it have UEFI BIOS (yes to all)
4) Does it have enough 6Gb/s SATA ports for all of the SSDs you're going to buy? (Yes, they all come with 6!!!! Crazy, right?) Also HDDs cannot saturate a 6Gb/s connection, so that's a moot point.
5) Does it have the proper rear panel ports for all of your peripherals? I can't answer that one for you.

Everything outside of that is pretty much just marketing (though I would love for another Tom's Hardware community member to educate me on this if I'm wrong) if you're a gamer.

Check out this product comparison.

On the topic of GPUs, can you give me some basic information about the differences in GPUs, their clock speeds, VRAM, and their respective models? (Preferably just on Nvidia; I'm not really interested in AMD.) I've looked at ASUS' 660 TI OC (3 GB VRAM), and compared to many other cards on pcpartpicker.com, it seems to have superior ratings and reviews. Are the performance increases on a 770 worth the leap in cost?

I just look at benchmarks. It gets very complicated when you talk hardware in a GPU because the architecture changes so much between series. For instance, the GTX 660 has 1344 CUDA cores whereas the GTX 560 has 336. Seems like a huge difference, right? It isn't; the architecture drastically changed between the two series. In the 660 Kepler architecture, they eliminated the 2nd (shader) clock which required the use of a unified clock, which means they needed way more CUDA cores to achieve the same performance.

Likewise the core clock for my 560 Ti is 950MHz whereas the core clock for the 680 is 1084MHz, so you would think they would have comparable performance, right? Not even close. It is best to use benchmarks for the type of games and resolutions you like to play to judge differences in models.

Also you should definitely consider the AMD 7970. It is perhaps the best value on the high-end side of the market right now.

Storage... Is a 120 GB drive enough to store my OS and application data? I found a Kingston that's 120 GB, and it only costs $85. Would you recommend the Samsung 840 series over this?

Yes get the Samsung 840. Samsung is unique among SSD makers because they actually manufacture every individual part of their SSD whereas many SSD manufacturers purchase their NAND chips or whatever from multiple suppliers. So Samsung has much better reliability and performance. The other aspect you should look into is in the SSD controller. Don't get an SSD with a Sandforce controller because it relies on compression to achieve its fast read/write speeds.

128GB is plenty. After installing my OS, I had 80GB free. After installing CS6 and a bunch of games, I have 30GB free.

 

[TenPc]

If you are not considering playing games that are specific Windows 8, not going to do Windows 8 programming or basically anything thing to do with windows 8 then you'd best save your money and go buy a second-hand PC with Windows 7 x64 installed.