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AMD Mantle Not Meant for Xbox One and PlayStation 4

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October 16, 2013 5:29:09 PM

good thing i have a hd 7950
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October 16, 2013 5:37:57 PM

Well the whole point of Mantle is to make a PC development environment more console-like.
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October 16, 2013 5:39:48 PM

What about PS4 and Sony? Do they support Mantle?
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October 16, 2013 6:06:32 PM

So????
What's the point then? I'm confused.
Is it just to port console coding directly to CGN gpus without the need of dx11???
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October 16, 2013 6:33:20 PM

Shankovich said:
Well the whole point of Mantle is to make a PC development environment more console-like.


Not sure why people are down-voting since you hit the nail on the head.
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October 16, 2013 6:39:43 PM

Verrin said:
What about PS4 and Sony? Do they support Mantle?


No official statement yet but they might follow MS move. Remember john carmack statement about how MS and Sony could be hostile towards Mantle?
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October 16, 2013 6:52:20 PM

I may look to far in the wrong direction, but i believe Microsoft isn't supporting Mantle is for the sole purpose of not having it on the ps4 "Competition".
Because if the devs made their games using mantle it will be harder for them to port it to xbox and pc's without AMD cards, and actually if devs adopted mantle whats the point of exclusivity for DirectX 11.2 on the X-1 and Win8.1? it will all be destroyed.
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October 16, 2013 6:57:14 PM

OR MAYBE, JUST MAYBE mantle is the direct competition of direct X which microsoft does not want to support considering microsoft makes direct X......
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October 16, 2013 7:05:29 PM

OR MAYBE, JUST MAYBE mantle is the direct competition of direct X which microsoft does not want to support considering microsoft makes direct X......
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October 16, 2013 7:11:35 PM

Mantle is just another in the long list of direct to hardware programming APIs that have come and gone. When you were talking about hardware running at 100 MHz and 4K of RAM, this really mattered. Today with GHz processors and GB of RAM, the increase in speed is marginal at best. That is why so many folks are using standard apps to write their code or using a generic engine these days.
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October 16, 2013 7:11:35 PM

Mantle is just another in the long list of direct to hardware programming APIs that have come and gone. When you were talking about hardware running at 100 MHz and 4K of RAM, this really mattered. Today with GHz processors and GB of RAM, the increase in speed is marginal at best. That is why so many folks are using standard apps to write their code or using a generic engine these days.
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October 16, 2013 7:56:27 PM

Reading between the lines... you won't see many Mantle games due to the fact that it's basically more work for developers. They still need to code the game for DirectX/OpenGL used by the vast majority of gamers. Coding for Mantle is just more work and more expense in order to benefit only 1/3rd of the PC community and zero console users.
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October 16, 2013 8:55:11 PM

what a missed opportunity for amd. mantle would have been a great competition to direct x. dirext x has stalled. it's been stuck in 11.x land for far too long due to being held back by slow console life cycle. we should be at direct x 16 by now. yet microsoft keeps holding it back so that the xbox console won't be too far behind in the directx department.

sony ps4 would have benefited from mantle. it would have made ps4 to pc port not shackled by directx 11.x.

boo, amd! boo! go fire your ceo now. :( 
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October 16, 2013 10:12:57 PM

X1 has no support, ok, what about PS4? The huge plus was 1 api to rule them all, now i don't see anything good, it would be the same as with physux - few good examples(that could be done without it) the rest are trash.
If UE4 will support it, situation might be different though, since its about performance and not new features and thus can be included in every game.
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October 16, 2013 10:21:07 PM

I think Microsoft is just throwing a fit about the AMD Mantle API. One, it's a low level API, so it's basically supplemental to the Major APIs (D3D and OpenGL). Rumor has it, it may or may not be off of OpenGL. This would explain why NVidia users can use it on their Graphic Cards, but it will be more optimized by AMD Users.

It's suppose to make it easier to port console games to PC, increase draw calls, make coding easier, easier to program...

It won't work on the XBone because it's strickly D3D up to 11.2, and no other API. PS4 might have it because there's a possibility that it will support D3D and OpenGL.

Sadly though, MS isn't in direct competition with AMD. Nvidia is in direct competition with AMD on the graphic processing spectrum. Sony is in direct competition with Microsoft (MS) because of the Consoles, Nvidia because of the Cellphone and Tablet Market. AMD direct competition--idono if you can call it competition still, is with INTEL. On the API side, MS's API is in competition with Khronos, or the makers of OpenGL.

I think Microsoft is just hating on AMD because they got a bum deal with the APU/SoC leftovers on the XBone... PS4 just have the better Jag APUs on them, and MS got the leftovers that didn't come out to be full Jag Cores. Since NVidia couldn't produce low powered APUs or SoC for Sony, they are hating on Sony too. Intel couldn't do it, and ARM couldn't do it because they didn't produce x86 cores...
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October 16, 2013 11:51:47 PM

I think the part that MS fears the most is that till now gamers had only windows as an option due to Direct X ... bring Mantle with huge performance gains to either Windows or Linux and MS will have a problem, but this is just my ideea. And this coming from a guy who likes Windows better than Linux, but i like competition and this is a good thing.
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October 17, 2013 12:19:27 AM

17seconds said:
Reading between the lines... you won't see many Mantle games due to the fact that it's basically more work for developers. They still need to code the game for DirectX/OpenGL used by the vast majority of gamers. Coding for Mantle is just more work and more expense in order to benefit only 1/3rd of the PC community and zero console users.


Yes, you'll only see MANTLE games when devs are paid by AMD for a specific title. I'm surprised they say DICE approached them for this. If that was the case why did you have to pay them 8mil supposedly to get BF4 optimized for it? If they wanted it, wouldn't they do the coding for free? Either way, even at 2mil per game they can't afford it let alone 8mil. I'd rather see everyone go OpenGL and forget DirectX or crap like Mantle. OpenGL serves everyone. If you're driver sucks that's the gpu makers problem, fix it. With OpenGL/WebGL/HTML5 etc you don't need all this porting crap, it's easily done as everyone supports these even in a browser. It took 4 days and a small team to port Unreal 3 engine to javascript/WebGL. That's a CHEAP port!

So Mass Effect, INfinity Blade, Gears of War etc etc should be easy to get running in browsers if so desired.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/151900-unreal-engine-...
I don't see how Mantle helps this type of stuff happen. It optimizes for a very small subset of AMD cards and nothing else. Nobody will do this. That's what I'd call reverse-cross platforming as in, going AWAY form cross-platforming.
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October 17, 2013 1:06:52 AM

Well... there is a lot of talk about all this but lucky for me, even with my limited knowledge about this thing, reviews will eventually surface and Ill find out whats worth it and whats not.
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October 17, 2013 2:53:49 AM

Yes because DX 11.x is really going to work well with the Xbox One mediocre graphics hardware. You will never see the full potential of DX 11.x on the Xbox One Console the graphics hardware will become a bottleneck before you will truly start to see the effects of what DX 11.x has to offer. At best you will see a water down version of DX 11.x being implemented.
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October 17, 2013 3:38:15 AM

SteelCity1981 said:
Yes because DX 11.x is really going to work well with the Xbox One mediocre graphics hardware. You will never see the full potential of DX 11.x on the Xbox One Console the graphics hardware will become a bottleneck before you will truly start to see the effects of what DX 11.x has to offer. At best you will see a water down version of DX 11.x being implemented.


Isn't that console already have their own low level API? In a sense they don't need Mantle if they already something similar to it.
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October 17, 2013 3:44:41 AM

Somehow, I highly doubt that they'd be saying this if it had been allowed on consoles as well....
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October 17, 2013 3:48:23 AM

Somehow, I highly doubt that they'd be saying this if it had been allowed on consoles as well....

And all games, consoles and PCs on mantle (and thus giving more support to AMD cards_ is nothing to celebrate. AMD fans might cheer for the first couple of years as AMD dominated Nvidia, but I imagine the cheering would stop very quickly after AMD's monopoly position doubled the price on graphics cards.
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October 17, 2013 3:57:15 AM

yes but that doesn't really have much to do with what i'm talking about in terms of fully taking advantage of DX 11.x with the current graphics hardware it has in it.
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October 17, 2013 4:16:41 AM

AMD Mantle, in theory, isn't designed to port old consoles games to the PC. It's designed to port new console games to the PC. This increases the consumer base instead of isolating them between those who have high-performing computer rigs, consoles, and low performing computer rigs. Remember, AMD won the Console Wars. So any Console game they place on the PS4, will more than likely be ported to the PC. This results in more revenue returns because more people can play the game without deciding to purchase a new PS4 or XBone. If demand goes up, the Game Developers will produce more copies to make more money, and invest in future games. Part of the reason why the Cellphone and Tablet market has become so significant is the fact that the Cellphone isn't just a cellphone. It's a cellphone, computer, web browser, GPS unit, camera, digital music player, etc... So it's basically combining the markets of other products into one. Ask yourself. Would you purchase a $1200 dollar SLR Camera with 28.8 mega pixels, or would you purchase a cellphone with a digital camera that has 24.0 mega pixels, same zoom as the SLR, including the cell phone, web browser, etc for only $599? Practical choice, you'd choose the cell phone because it does about the same as the SLR camera, and it has more features, for a little less than half the cost. Same ideology goes for AMD Mantle in one perspective. You can buy the same games for the PS4, and play them on the PC... You don't need to spend another $399.99 for the PS4 just to play them... Consumers don't need to spend $2000 for a top of the line Alienware Computer just to play awesome-sauce PC Games like BF4 when they can do it on the PS4...

I suspect that XBone will be better at streaming games through Cloud...
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October 17, 2013 4:57:49 AM

LOL@ Microsoft
Didn't Megadeath write a song about this?
What was it now... Oh yea "Sweating Bullets". heh

BTW Microsoft didn't get a "BUM" deal from AMD. They just paid less, as Sony paid more for a better version of the SOC.

Seems more like Sony has them in the console market for this holiday, and hardware+Gaming went looking elsewhere for DX alternatives and got it.
Give it some time to mature. It may get rather interesting.

It's kind of nice to see that company get the shaft they have been dishing out as of late. And making DX an exclusive to an OS most of the consumers do not want may have been the nail in the coffin.

If Valve makes porting games over easy "Including current ones" to steam OS. Then this could be a game changer for.. well.. gaming. :) 

The Future is looking grand for everyone except big boy blue.
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October 17, 2013 2:24:17 PM

I'm sad to see all this talk about the GCN architecture in regards to Mantle. Of course in AMD's marketing they're touting their own hardware.. but if AMD is developing Mantle to only be usable on AMD hardware, they're shooting this whole idea right in the head. This could be our chance to finally get away from Windows and DirectX, but only if its as universal as possible. If this is AMD-only, it will be a poorly-supported gimmick from birth to death.

It may even bleed over to consoles. If Microsoft wants to wall off their garden so much that they'll only use their own probably-inferior graphics API, that could/should come at a cost.
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October 17, 2013 7:50:36 PM

OpenGL is the only real option. It's got a HUGE support base, it deals with legacy applications, it's CROSS PLATFORM ( you know there are other things besides microsoft stuff out there ) and OpenGL has a PROVEN way to do things... I think MANTLE is supposed to be the CG specific to AMD but developers and customers don't want it. I understand that AMD and NVDA put millions of dollars into writing specific OpenGL and D3D drivers, so this can't be a completely different option, it just isn't worth it as history has shown.
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October 18, 2013 8:44:44 AM

Well, Xbone does not use Mantle, but Mantle can be used to make games to Xbone PS4 and AMD GCN based systems. So it makes it possible to make easier translate to one platform to another. It just not is official Xbone api...
The interesting thing is what MS will do if someone makes a game to Xbone using Mantle? Do they care or do they make it impossible to sell those games... *put popcorn to the nuke machine*
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October 20, 2013 5:44:34 PM

Serpent of Heaven said:
AMD Mantle, in theory, isn't designed to port old consoles games to the PC. It's designed to port new console games to the PC. This increases the consumer base instead of isolating them between those who have high-performing computer rigs, consoles, and low performing computer rigs. Remember, AMD won the Console Wars. So any Console game they place on the PS4, will more than likely be ported to the PC. This results in more revenue returns because more people can play the game without deciding to purchase a new PS4 or XBone. If demand goes up, the Game Developers will produce more copies to make more money, and invest in future games. Part of the reason why the Cellphone and Tablet market has become so significant is the fact that the Cellphone isn't just a cellphone. It's a cellphone, computer, web browser, GPS unit, camera, digital music player, etc... So it's basically combining the markets of other products into one. Ask yourself. Would you purchase a $1200 dollar SLR Camera with 28.8 mega pixels, or would you purchase a cellphone with a digital camera that has 24.0 mega pixels, same zoom as the SLR, including the cell phone, web browser, etc for only $599? Practical choice, you'd choose the cell phone because it does about the same as the SLR camera, and it has more features, for a little less than half the cost. Same ideology goes for AMD Mantle in one perspective. You can buy the same games for the PS4, and play them on the PC... You don't need to spend another $399.99 for the PS4 just to play them... Consumers don't need to spend $2000 for a top of the line Alienware Computer just to play awesome-sauce PC Games like BF4 when they can do it on the PS4...

I suspect that XBone will be better at streaming games through Cloud...


You have no proof AMD WON the console wars. NV says they gave it up do to bad numbers, which knowing single digit margins (guessing until 20nm shrink) I can see why NV went mobile/shield/steambox etc. If I can stream my PC's gpu to anything running android or SteamOS there is no point in consoles. G-Sync only adds more reason to go PC over consoles.

I don't see many games that will be made on consoles 1st now, and also I'm sure they'll not waste the money to port to a small % of a company who only owns 1/3 of the discrete gaming market. How many will have mantle capable cards next yet? Would you spend 8Mil to program for THOSE SPECIFIC cards? You won't get your money back. Mantle is dead except for a few games AMD will PAY to get converted. Nobody will waste money coding for what like 10% of the discrete market? Will even a 1/3 of AMD's 1/3 be mantle capable in the next year? Realize any coding for Mantle don't work on 65% of the gpu owners cards (NV owns them all). This pretty much means AMD pays or Mantle never gets used. Those devs will STILL have to make it openGL/Directx etc capable for the other 2/3's of the discrete market. You will NOT ignore that sized audience just to make AMD happy.

There's a reason why you only see ONE announcement game. Because it was 8mil PAID to dice to get it optimized. Even at 1/4 of that, it is very expensive. It would be different if you could sell a "mantle optimized" version of the game for $80 or something. But you can't. You charge the same, and won't get your money back for the extra coding cost. Porting is important yes. But you don't want to port for AMD and then the rest for PC. You just do it ONCE for OpenGL or DirectX and call it a day. THAT is what causes sales to go up, not coding for multiple apis for one platform, that just costs more for nothing returned.

Edit: One more note, most people will play BF4 at 1080p (less than 1.25% of us own above this) which can be done on far cheaper hardware than a $2000 PC. A lot of us already own fast enough PC's to play it TODAY. Check the recommendations from Dice/EA. A lot of us can already play it and as drivers are optimized from both sides for it, even more will with their current PC. You can build an SLI or CF machine for under 1K (we already own monitors and probably the OS, keyboard, mouse, drives etc). Don't forget that a lot of us, don't even intend to play BF4 :) 

Also, your example for mobile is exactly why I've been saying consoles are dead. Devs show they are running to Mobile in droves, while only a few plan anything in the future for next gen consoles. If AMD won consoles, they won a dying breed.
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January 18, 2014 7:25:00 AM

I think if AMD is saying that that mantle is going to be as good as it is going to be this is a Win Win for the PS4. To have 40% boost over the xbox1 in BF4 would crush them. I think it would be dumb of them to just say we will pass. I cant wait to see how this works out for the PS4.
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