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Nvidia Boasts New Driver Surpasses AMD's Mantle in Games

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  • Drivers
  • Graphics Cards
  • Nvidia
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March 24, 2014 10:40:07 PM

It is a proven fact that GTX780Ti is faster and better than R9-290X! Nvidia, who are you kidding? Still, with Mantle, AMD just need to do a driver update as well since it is still Beta anyway. Logic, Nvidia, logic please. DX12 may become your salvation since it is similar to Mantle from what I heard (hence they claim they don't need their own API), but still this article is a joke from Nvidia.
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-13
March 24, 2014 10:52:05 PM

Will this also help the rest of the 700 series and the last generation 600 series?
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9
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March 24, 2014 10:56:10 PM

AMD's drivers are the only joke here. Yon never see they term certified or the acronym WHQL when referring to Catalyst drivers because they are in a perpetual state of Beta.
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-14
March 24, 2014 11:00:17 PM

Nvidia's own false graphs again. Nvidia is scared of Mantle as they should be. Mantle support will continue spreading and soon no-one will be buying nvidia's inferior products.
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-9
March 24, 2014 11:06:16 PM

I don't buy it. The 780Ti is a faster and more expensive piece of hardware than a 290x so it has an advantage without drivers. Also, Mantle is new and not fully unlocked in its potential yet. More gains will come of it. I think this is Nvidia trying to dodge the fact that they are late to the low level API party which needs to happen. Hopefully DirectX12 can help them out there. PCs NEED low level APIs to unbottleneck the CPUs regardless of vendor preference.
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17
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March 24, 2014 11:14:21 PM

cinergy said:
Nvidia's own false graphs again. Nvidia is scared of Mantle as they should be. Mantle support will continue spreading and soon no-one will be buying nvidia's inferior products.


Why would Nvidia be scared of something that a now ex AMD employee stated that nobody wants?

“It’s not something most developers want,” he said. “If you held a vote among developers, they would go for DirectX or Open GL, because it’s a great platform.”

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33723/AMD_Walks_Back...

That was back in 2011 so it's kind of funny that the PR line a couple of years later is the exact opposite! :lol: 
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1
March 25, 2014 12:01:27 AM

Honestly I don't think this is any different to drivers which come out soon after games are released to squeeze a little more performance out. The system is clearly not cpu limited as it is running on a SB-E 6-core, so Mantle wouldn't be helping AMD very much in this situation.

If they showed more games or benchmarks from a few years ago or in a situation which wasn't so clearly cpu limited I'd change my mind, but until then I'm not buying it as anything more than Nvidia marketing. Remember Bulldozer and Fermi, don't believe the hype

EDIT: The Thief graph shows only a 4fps increase, which is nice from a driver but barely revolutionary
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25
March 25, 2014 12:13:24 AM

This kinda matters little, if i understand mantles main goal it is so the game producers can optimize on there own game. ofc Dx can do the same resolute but can it be done without eny help or optimization from nvidia? i feel Nvidia missed the point or did i ?
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10
March 25, 2014 12:18:08 AM

Mantle is open sourcing soon!It will be merged (as a similar solution): in OGL! The upcoming Nv SoCs GPU drivers will also be a open sourced with all Nvs help. DX as a property will lose against OGL & more develops will turn to OGL... Nv is probably right that they don't need to develop they one lo lv api. They will probably have a temporal disadvantage. As much as I like AMD the Nv still have the best driver division in the business, not glorious as it whose bat still the best.
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-1
March 25, 2014 12:27:04 AM

Apples to Apples and Orange to Orange please. Mantle is all about direct communication with the hardware, and removing CPU bottleneck, D3D is still with CPU bottleneck. But I got to admit those numbers are pretty impressive, though, but like nVidia said "Nvidia did clarify that its new driver has a higher average frame rate, but still has more slow frames than Mantle – something that Nvidia will continue to chip away at..." let us wait for Tom's review... to be fair...
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7
March 25, 2014 12:45:16 AM

Mantle and Directx12 almost a carbon copy and Mantle getting a 2 year head start ? Yeah right, whenever something is to good to be true its because its to good to be true. MS and AMD are up to something.
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4
March 25, 2014 12:48:49 AM

Mantle is mostly about removing / reducing CPU bottlenecks, if the CPU can cope, there isn't much gains to be had. Most people are still running dual cores, try the comparison with those.
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20
March 25, 2014 1:32:49 AM

That was kinda sneaky on Nvidia with the Thief graph. They played with vertical scaling to overstate their gains. So their greatest performance increase is from 52FPS to 58.5FPS which is a 12.5% increase, not the 100%+ increase the bar depicts.I like that they are looking for ways to achieve greater performance but Toms should of caught the BS marketing tactic with the second graph.
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12
Anonymous
March 25, 2014 1:35:47 AM

Ignoring the purpose of mantle and use the gpu without the cpu bottleneck ... what a joke nvidia,thats tell us more about how scary mantle is to make nvidia & MS use lies technology
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0
March 25, 2014 2:03:11 AM

Correct me if I am wrong but Mantle will only be effective if adopted by developer so say Battlefield 4 which Mantle gains can be felt in single and online gameplay. Mantle is also isolated from drivers gains ie: if AMD improves drivers periodically the gains in such game as BF4 can also be noted over previous drivers with Mantle support.So the long and short, is star whatever supported by Mantle? if not the point is moot its just an issue of driver evolution and thus its really just stating that improved drivers improves performance which is what we all know already.
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6
a b U Graphics card
March 25, 2014 2:04:11 AM

Not to mention that Nvidia's GK110 die size is a little bit more than 28% larger than AMD's Hawaii XT yet Nvidia comes away with only 5-10% more performance in most games. For reference the die sizes are as follows in mm^2: GK110 561, Hawaii XT 438.
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3
March 25, 2014 2:33:54 AM

i call BSfirst the 780ti is more powerful than the R9 290Xsecondly if the 780TI and R9 290X were completely equal in power directX in its current form cannot beat something like mantle even with loads of driver optimisation UNLESS the drivers for mantle are pants (and apparently they can be but they are still in beta - i have no mantle supported games to test my card on so i have not bothered with the beta drivers)and then that second graph is just silly (starting at 48 fps instead of 0 so it looks like the TI gets a 100% boost? thats just playing with the numbers to make them seem bigger)
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1
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March 25, 2014 2:51:57 AM

I Love the colorful graphs they always post......
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4
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March 25, 2014 2:52:03 AM

RIP AMD.
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-16
March 25, 2014 2:57:47 AM

How come I'm getting better FPS in Thief at maximum settings running a single R9 280x than what the graph is claiming 290x reaches, both in the benchmark and in-game?Nvidia's graph looks like complete bull.
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12
March 25, 2014 3:02:57 AM

Forttis said:
How come I'm getting better FPS in Thief at maximum settings running a single R9 280x than what the graph is claiming 290x reaches, both in the benchmark and in-game?Nvidia's graph looks like complete bull.


O.o i just noticed that i'm getting a solid 60fps on max on a single 7970 without mantle (said 7970 is NOT a ghz edition (R9280X) and it is not overclocked)

NVidia stop telling porkies it makes you look desperate
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5
March 25, 2014 3:20:07 AM

Is this only for the 700 series or is it backwards compatible?
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1
March 25, 2014 3:23:30 AM

Did Nvidia forget that Star Swarm scales the amount of things on screen to reach target frame rates?
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2
March 25, 2014 3:24:06 AM

sjc1017 said:
Is this only for the 700 series or is it backwards compatible?


well saying as alot of the 700 series is rebranded 600 series and its a new driver and they are lieing about all of it (55 fps on thief on an R9 290X with mantle? what the hell are they smoking? i get solid 60 with a single 7970 without mantle @1080p with all the options on max with SweetFX - aka brutally murdering my graphics card)
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1
March 25, 2014 3:31:09 AM

Well with Mantle you need a GCN compatible GPU, with this being a driver update I was wondering whether it would be universally advantageous.
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1
March 25, 2014 3:38:42 AM

Like everything from Nvidia you need to take it with a very large grain of salt. They do make good stuff and all, but it's always best to wait for independent testing.
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4
March 25, 2014 3:40:33 AM

Well, surely if it is true you have to wonder what they were doing making such inefficient drivers for so long!
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1
March 25, 2014 3:42:11 AM

It really gets to me the whole "backward compatible" arguement to try diminish something. The VLIW4 parts in the HD6000 is around 2009/2010 technology at the time probably not in the engineers mind to make cards to support Mantle at that stage. Similar with drivers, New AMD drivers don't support all older technologies and this comes down to you have had 4-7 years to catch up to modern technology and reap the rewards of such. It sounds harsh but you cannot future proof nor can you benefit on antiquated technology.
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-2
March 25, 2014 3:54:46 AM

Well the question about backwards compatibility was not aimed at AMD, I was wondering whether, this being a driver update, it might benefit older hardware (I have nvidia in my two year old laptops and amd in my desktop). It seems a reasonable question to ask "will it benefit my ageing hardware". I don't dispute one can't expect older hardware to benefit but it's still a question that arises naturally. It being a driver update you wonder whether there might be an advantage to all nvidia hardware. AMD have made clear from the outset that you need GCN generation hardware to benefit from Mantle, so no issue arises since you know the conditions, with this, there is little information given in the article apart from the mention of a 780.

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1
March 25, 2014 4:19:20 AM

sjc1017 said:
Well the question about backwards compatibility was not aimed at AMD, I was wondering whether, this being a driver update, it might benefit older hardware (I have nvidia in my two year old laptops and amd in my desktop). It seems a reasonable question to ask "will it benefit my ageing hardware". I don't dispute one can't expect older hardware to benefit but it's still a question that arises naturally. It being a driver update you wonder whether there might be an advantage to all nvidia hardware. AMD have made clear from the outset that you need GCN generation hardware to benefit from Mantle, so no issue arises since you know the conditions, with this, there is little information given in the article apart from the mention of a 780.



it will support all cards NVidia supports (not the 300 series and possibly the 400 and 500 series i am not qutie sure)

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0
March 25, 2014 4:23:49 AM

Actually all this recent development is quite frankly insulting to gamers and the customer base.

Why? Hmm well let's see. Game development has been moribund and lackluster for quite a few years. Performance improvements have been meager at best. Then out of nowhere one breaks loose from the pack with something 'new' and all of a sudden everyone is pulling 'near the metal performance' boosts out of their ass like crazy.

They have known about this stuff all along but were just happy to keep the status quo. Lazy!

Oh and as a rule take any performance figures from a company marketing slide and reduce them by at least 50% to get the real world figure.
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1
March 25, 2014 4:32:34 AM

I find it extremely unprofessional to distort the second graph of this article.Tomshardware should be better than this. The second graph looks like a 40% improvement when in reality if you check the scales they just cut the bottom of the graph off.
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2
March 25, 2014 4:43:48 AM

There appears to be no information on the type of R9 290X used here, which is particularly telling considering the significant performance gains achieved by just having a decent cooler on the thing.Also, the gaping difference between synthetic and actual gaming performance rears its ugly head yet again. I'd consider 55 and 58fps a wash in such circumstances, and would certainly prefer the 55 if, amusingly, NVIDIA are the ones suffering from the less consistent performance this time around.Once the benchmarks are out and the image quality scrutinised, we can finally see the fruits of NVIDIA's labour, but until then...
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1
March 25, 2014 5:53:32 AM

No love for us regular 780 non Ti owners I guess...
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0
a b U Graphics card
March 25, 2014 5:57:30 AM

vaughn2k said:
Mantle is all about direct communication with the hardware, and removing CPU bottleneck, D3D is still with CPU bottleneck.

If you look at persistent buffer presentations for OGL and DX12, most of the API, driver, kernel, etc. overheads from having to transfer and re-validate data on every call is eliminated while the remaining user-mode API ends up spreading much more evenly across threads/cores instead of piling up almost entirely in the main thread.

Nvidia said they could achieve up to 30X as many draw calls per second thanks to persistent buffers and related tweaks, which is three times AMD's claim with Mantle.
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-1
March 25, 2014 6:12:00 AM

As always, I'm weary of any manufacturer published benchmarks, and that goes for Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these gains are real, are we talking strictly DX applications here or are there OpenGL gains too?
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1
March 25, 2014 6:17:26 AM

gaborbarla said:
I find it extremely unprofessional to distort the second graph of this article.
Anyone capable of reading can see the FPS clearly. With a 0-60 FPS graph, you would barely see the 2/4 fps difference between the driver versions - that is the real reason why it is done this way.

daglesj said:
Why? Hmm well let's see. Game development has been moribund and lackluster for quite a few years. Performance improvements have been meager at best.
You have no idea what it means to optimize every game, driver and API. If it was as easy as you probably think it is, we would have done so with every game. If we actually had to fully optimize every single piece of software, you would have no games to play - most game development studios would simply go bankrupt before releasing a game...

daglesj said:
Then out of nowhere one breaks loose from the pack with something 'new' and all of a sudden everyone is pulling 'near the metal performance' boosts out of their ass like crazy.
If you actually check the driver history, you would see each version improving performance in games (this is an evolution, not a revolution). Mantle simply encouraged the public (and PR departments) to talk about it more (which is a good thing).
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1
March 25, 2014 6:20:31 AM

That Thief chart commits a huge visualization crime. By starting the Y axis at 48 instead of zero, it distorts the magnitude of the gains. If the best thing you have to show off is a 4 FPS gain, and you need to use tricks to make it appear more substantial, I'm not interested.
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1
March 25, 2014 6:41:26 AM

Jaroslav Jandek said:
gaborbarla said:
I find it extremely unprofessional to distort the second graph of this article.
Anyone capable of reading can see the FPS clearly. With a 0-60 FPS graph, you would barely see the 2/4 fps difference between the driver versions - that is the real reason why it is done this way.


I don't think so, I think they do it this way because 95% of people don't read the article or just glance at the chart and it looks favourable to Nvidia so they do it. The whole point of the comparison would be to see that in the second graph there is only 8-10% difference as opposed to the larger theoretical gap in the first graph. At first glance however, it seems that the practical improvement is higher, until you actually eyeball the scale of the second graph has been truncated, which is not a valid scientific representation anyways. The point of a scientific comparison should be to visually demonstrate that there is a small improvement not to zoom in on the little improvement and make it look good for Nvidia. Having said this I have a 780ti and I am not an AMD fanboi.

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2
March 25, 2014 6:42:30 AM

Mousemonkey said:


Why would Nvidia be scared of something that a now ex AMD employee stated that nobody wants?

“It’s not something most developers want,” he said. “If you held a vote among developers, they would go for DirectX or Open GL, because it’s a great platform.”

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33723/AMD_Walks_Back...

That was back in 2011 so it's kind of funny that the PR line a couple of years later is the exact opposite! :lol: 


Because that was in 2011. The market can change a lot in 3 years. Do you think companies should just ignore market and technology shifts and stick with assertions they made years ago that might not be the case anymore?
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0
March 25, 2014 6:47:50 AM

I'll believe it when I actually see it. As others have mentioned, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Also, as any programmer knows, there is much more overhead in Direct X than going direct to metal. Under fully optimized conditions Direct X will always be slower.
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2
March 25, 2014 7:09:21 AM

Quote:
I don't buy it. The 780Ti is a faster and more expensive piece of hardware than a 290x so it has an advantage without drivers. Also, Mantle is new and not fully unlocked in its potential yet. More gains will come of it. I think this is Nvidia trying to dodge the fact that they are late to the low level API party which needs to happen. Hopefully DirectX12 can help them out there. PCs NEED low level APIs to unbottleneck the CPUs regardless of vendor preference.
What Nvidia don't get, is that the main purpose of Mantle, is to alow developers to create better use of the GPU from apps, and leave CPU alone in a Open Source type of way. How open is nvidia driver in the graphic? "So, lets keep everything closed so we can keep make things our way, mkay?"
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1
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March 25, 2014 7:13:57 AM

abimocorde said:
Quote:
I don't buy it. The 780Ti is a faster and more expensive piece of hardware than a 290x so it has an advantage without drivers. Also, Mantle is new and not fully unlocked in its potential yet. More gains will come of it. I think this is Nvidia trying to dodge the fact that they are late to the low level API party which needs to happen. Hopefully DirectX12 can help them out there. PCs NEED low level APIs to unbottleneck the CPUs regardless of vendor preference.
What Nvidia don't get, is that the main purpose of Mantle, is to alow developers to create better use of the GPU from apps, and leave CPU alone in a Open Source type of way. How open is nvidia driver in the graphic? "So, lets keep everything closed so we can keep make things our way, mkay?"


If AMD were to fully support DX11 in their drivers then there may not have been any need for Mantle, did you ever think of that?
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-5
March 25, 2014 7:18:52 AM

old tricks, sacrifice the graphic quality to gain fps only, poor evil
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1
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March 25, 2014 7:21:07 AM

cityuser said:
old tricks, sacrifice the graphic quality to gain fps only, poor evil


Correct, that is just what Mantle does from some SS that I've seen.
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-3
a b U Graphics card
March 25, 2014 7:23:39 AM

Mousemonkey said:
cinergy said:
Nvidia's own false graphs again. Nvidia is scared of Mantle as they should be. Mantle support will continue spreading and soon no-one will be buying nvidia's inferior products.


Why would Nvidia be scared of something that a now ex AMD employee stated that nobody wants?

“It’s not something most developers want,” he said. “If you held a vote among developers, they would go for DirectX or Open GL, because it’s a great platform.”

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33723/AMD_Walks_Back...

That was back in 2011 so it's kind of funny that the PR line a couple of years later is the exact opposite! :lol: 


I don't get why you are surprised that more devs are coming on board with a new API for performance reasons. Microsoft has pretty much done nothing to lower the overall "system requirements bar" with DirectX since this quote was made in 2011. The new Mantle API helps turn what would otherwise be an unplayable configuration into a potential customer. It allows everyone to turn on more visual goodies or even bump up the resolution you are playing at. I truly do not understand why people are so negative about devs enabling free performance and reaching broader markets. This is good for everyone in PC gaming.

If nVidia wasn't worried about the impact of Mantle, they would ignore it, not give it more headlines. Instead nVidia felt that it was necessary to directly address Mantle, even going so far as to generate press slides with new benchmarks on an optimized driver. The funny part is that nVidia's own slides give you a taste of what Mantle is capable, look at the % gains on the slides and notice that the difference is greater on the AMD side than the nVidia side.
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3
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March 25, 2014 7:25:39 AM

Where my 2560x1440 G-sync monitor at???
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1
a b U Graphics card
March 25, 2014 7:28:48 AM

Mousemonkey said:
If AMD were to fully support DX11 in their drivers then there may not have been any need for Mantle, did you ever think of that?

You meant DX12, right?

Sure. But DX12's public release is still over one year off in the future unless Microsoft changes their mind about it.
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3
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March 25, 2014 7:32:30 AM

InvalidError said:
Mousemonkey said:
If AMD were to fully support DX11 in their drivers then there may not have been any need for Mantle, did you ever think of that?

You meant DX12, right?

Sure. But DX12's public release is still over one year off in the future unless Microsoft changes their mind about it.


No I mean DX11, the Star Swarm demo proved it quite nicely and AMD have admitted to not supporting the multithreading feature of DX11 in their drivers whilst Nvidia DO support it and in the Star Swarm demo it makes quite a difference.
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-3
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