AMD for GPUs/CPUs or Intel and Nvidia? So confused...........
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Last response: in CPUs
MrCanEHdian
April 15, 2014 8:24:43 PM
Ok, so I've been doing TONS of reading/research, and it seems Intel and Nvidia dominate in the gaming area, however, the Intel I5 4670K CPU (the one I want) is of the Haswell architecture, and seems to have heat issues.
I ended speaking to a friend from work who has built PCs in the past, for gaming, and he swears by AMD, he believes it is magnitudes superior to the alternative. He also believes the quality and "life" of the AMD hardware is better, and that they are better at managing heat.
I'm looking to put anywhere from $1000-1800 (maybe even $2000) into a gaming desktop PC that can play all manner of strategy games well, and future strategy games. I will also play games like Planetside 2, Far Cry 3, maybe BF4, maybe Watch Dogs, and probably upcoming demanding games (like the new Civilization). I should also mention, my budget also must cover a monitor (at purchase date, even a cheap one for $99 is fine), might need a new copy of an OS, keyboard (nothing special), and anti-virus (probably Bit Defender or something not too expensive or resource intensive).
So my question is, are AMD processors generally superior or inferior to Intel and Nvidia GPUs and CPUs? Who do you like more, and why? I'm dying to know what the right hardware is for me. I'm leaning towards an Intel I5 4670K OR I7 4770K and an Nvidia GTX 770 or GTX 780, but now I'm not sure those are what I should pump money into.
Thank you for your time.
I ended speaking to a friend from work who has built PCs in the past, for gaming, and he swears by AMD, he believes it is magnitudes superior to the alternative. He also believes the quality and "life" of the AMD hardware is better, and that they are better at managing heat.
I'm looking to put anywhere from $1000-1800 (maybe even $2000) into a gaming desktop PC that can play all manner of strategy games well, and future strategy games. I will also play games like Planetside 2, Far Cry 3, maybe BF4, maybe Watch Dogs, and probably upcoming demanding games (like the new Civilization). I should also mention, my budget also must cover a monitor (at purchase date, even a cheap one for $99 is fine), might need a new copy of an OS, keyboard (nothing special), and anti-virus (probably Bit Defender or something not too expensive or resource intensive).
So my question is, are AMD processors generally superior or inferior to Intel and Nvidia GPUs and CPUs? Who do you like more, and why? I'm dying to know what the right hardware is for me. I'm leaning towards an Intel I5 4670K OR I7 4770K and an Nvidia GTX 770 or GTX 780, but now I'm not sure those are what I should pump money into.
Thank you for your time.
More about : amd gpus cpus intel nvidia confused
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Gam3r01
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April 15, 2014 10:28:16 PM
AMD CPUs are the cheaper more budget alternatives in gaming, for pure power go for intel, because they have stronger single core performance. Neither really out live eachother, nor does one have heat issues. Investing in a 30 dollar cooler is more than enough for both AMD and Intel (Flagship CPUs such as the 9xxx series, or 49xx series excluded)
For gaming I recommend the 4670k, and for the graphics, depending on budget, from a 760-780Ti.
For gaming I recommend the 4670k, and for the graphics, depending on budget, from a 760-780Ti.
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Reply to Gam3r01
logainofhades
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April 16, 2014 12:00:25 PM
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($17.64 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($64.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($104.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($559.99 @ Micro Center)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($15.98 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($32.98 @ Newegg)
Speakers: Cyber Acoustics CA3550RB 68W 2.1ch Speakers ($43.51 @ Amazon)
Total: $1790.27
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-16 15:00 EDT-0400)
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($17.64 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($64.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($104.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($559.99 @ Micro Center)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($15.98 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($32.98 @ Newegg)
Speakers: Cyber Acoustics CA3550RB 68W 2.1ch Speakers ($43.51 @ Amazon)
Total: $1790.27
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-16 15:00 EDT-0400)
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Reply to logainofhades
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MrCanEHdian
April 16, 2014 2:26:17 PM
logainofhades said:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / BenchmarksCPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($17.64 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($64.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($104.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($559.99 @ Micro Center)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($15.98 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($32.98 @ Newegg)
Speakers: Cyber Acoustics CA3550RB 68W 2.1ch Speakers ($43.51 @ Amazon)
Total: $1790.27
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-16 15:00 EDT-0400)
Wow! That's amazing! Thank you for doing that for me
! I would have to convert it to Canadian dollars, but otherwise, it looks like a sweet build. The AMD GPU looks amazing, but I always thought Nvidia was the gamer's choice in most cases? It seems to be better than even the GTX 780. I could live without speakers, and only need one monitor, -
Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
April 16, 2014 2:29:27 PM
Gam3r01 said:
AMD CPUs are the cheaper more budget alternatives in gaming, for pure power go for intel, because they have stronger single core performance. Neither really out live eachother, nor does one have heat issues. Investing in a 30 dollar cooler is more than enough for both AMD and Intel (Flagship CPUs such as the 9xxx series, or 49xx series excluded)For gaming I recommend the 4670k, and for the graphics, depending on budget, from a 760-780Ti.
Thank you, at the time of asking this question, I didn't realize that this topic had been asked a crazy amount of times already, so thank you to you both for taking the time to answer my questions.
I am leaning towards the 4670k, however, I'm totally up for any alternatives. I feel more comfortable with Nvidia and Intel, because, from what I've read, they are more noob friendly, and I am very nooby. The AMD R9 290X the other user recommended looks amazing, with the 4GB of GDDR5 VRAM and the 512 bit bus..... Looks better than the GTX 770 and 780 by a crazy amount. Is it better? The price is high, but so is the GTX 780's price.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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April 17, 2014 8:49:24 AM
MrCanEHdian said:
logainofhades said:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / BenchmarksCPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($17.64 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($64.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($104.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($559.99 @ Micro Center)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($15.98 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($32.98 @ Newegg)
Speakers: Cyber Acoustics CA3550RB 68W 2.1ch Speakers ($43.51 @ Amazon)
Total: $1790.27
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-16 15:00 EDT-0400)
Wow! That's amazing! Thank you for doing that for me
! I would have to convert it to Canadian dollars, but otherwise, it looks like a sweet build. The AMD GPU looks amazing, but I always thought Nvidia was the gamer's choice in most cases? It seems to be better than even the GTX 780. I could live without speakers, and only need one monitor, Here you go.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($267.33 @ Newegg Canada)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($16.79 @ DirectCanada)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($98.00 @ Vuugo)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($95.48 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($136.00 @ Vuugo)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($114.95 @ DirectCanada)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($655.35 @ TigerDirect Canada)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($55.75 @ DirectCanada)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($94.99 @ Memory Express)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($17.99 @ Canada Computers)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($103.52 @ DirectCanada)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($211.57 @ Newegg Canada)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($31.00 @ Vuugo)
Total: $1898.72
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-17 11:49 EDT-0400)
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Reply to logainofhades
MrCanEHdian
April 17, 2014 10:19:25 AM
logainofhades said:
MrCanEHdian said:
logainofhades said:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / BenchmarksCPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($17.64 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($64.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($104.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($559.99 @ Micro Center)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($15.98 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($145.88 @ Newegg)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($32.98 @ Newegg)
Speakers: Cyber Acoustics CA3550RB 68W 2.1ch Speakers ($43.51 @ Amazon)
Total: $1790.27
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-16 15:00 EDT-0400)
Wow! That's amazing! Thank you for doing that for me
! I would have to convert it to Canadian dollars, but otherwise, it looks like a sweet build. The AMD GPU looks amazing, but I always thought Nvidia was the gamer's choice in most cases? It seems to be better than even the GTX 780. I could live without speakers, and only need one monitor, Here you go.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($267.33 @ Newegg Canada)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper TX3 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($16.79 @ DirectCanada)
Motherboard: ASRock B85 Pro4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($98.00 @ Vuugo)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($95.48 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: Crucial M500 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($136.00 @ Vuugo)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($114.95 @ DirectCanada)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Video Card ($655.35 @ TigerDirect Canada)
Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($55.75 @ DirectCanada)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX750B BRONZE 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($94.99 @ Memory Express)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($17.99 @ Canada Computers)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($103.52 @ DirectCanada)
Monitor: Dell S2340M 60Hz 23.0" Monitor ($211.57 @ Newegg Canada)
Keyboard: Cooler Master CM Storm Devastator Gaming Bundle Wired Gaming Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($31.00 @ Vuugo)
Total: $1898.72
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-17 11:49 EDT-0400)
Thank you again, the only thing that concerns me about those two builds, are the motherboards.... I'm starting to read/hear about the importance of "high quality" expensive motherboards, around $150-$300 range. The ones in your builds are less than $100, is that ok?
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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April 17, 2014 11:50:29 AM
MrCanEHdian
April 17, 2014 9:31:37 PM
logainofhades said:
Sure they are ok. The expensive motherboards are for overclockers and users with multiple graphics cards in SLI or Crossfire. A budget, non overclocking, system doesn't need these expensive components. Hmmm... I don't know much about overclocking or SLI yet, however, I plan on going with an intel k model, just in case I decide later on to try overclocking. I have read about more expensive motherboards having decent sound cards and better wireless things.
If I go with a cheaper board, will I need a separate sound card and wireless adapter card (or whatever the wireless stuff is).?
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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April 21, 2014 8:24:00 AM
MrCanEHdian
April 21, 2014 2:15:21 PM
logainofhades said:
If you get a k series, you have to go with a more expensive motherboard. I really don't think it is worth the added cost. The money saved for a gaming rig is better spent on GPU. In a gaming rig the GPU is more important than the CPU. Awwww.... How much more expensive? Would the Asus Gryphon be sufficient or insufficient for the k series? The reason I want to go with it, is because, if I understand correctly, strategy games like Civ 5 are very CPU intensive..... Those are some of my favorite games of all, and my favorite genre.
I would like the GTX 780, but as of right now, the most demanding games I can think of that I want are Planetside 2, Dayz Standalone, and possibly BF4 (although I was unimpressed with the 360 version, I dunno 64 players will redeem it for me).
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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April 22, 2014 6:46:42 AM
Civ 5 doesn't require a very powerful CPU. The requirements are old core 2 and Athlon 64 x2's. A 1230 v3, or 4770k, would be overkill for sure. A 1230 v3 is enough for any of the other games you listed as well. The added cost of overclocking just isn't worth it, considering it would cost you about $180 more to do so. That is enough for a nice 240gb SSD and possibly a 2tb hdd drive.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($309.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ Micro Center)
Motherboard: Asus GRYPHON Z87 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($157.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $497.97
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:45 EDT-0400)
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: ASRock B85M Pro4 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $314.98
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:46 EDT-0400)
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($309.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ Micro Center)
Motherboard: Asus GRYPHON Z87 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($157.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $497.97
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:45 EDT-0400)
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: ASRock B85M Pro4 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $314.98
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:46 EDT-0400)
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Reply to logainofhades
And remember, the Xeon E3-1230v3 that logainofhades keeps pushing is pretty much an i7 4770K without the ability to overclock. In my opinion, it's a much more superior processor than the i5-4670K, especially when more games and apps start taking advantage of hyperthreading. And I believe they will in the very near future.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 7, 2014 7:41:19 PM
logainofhades said:
Civ 5 doesn't require a very powerful CPU. The requirements are old core 2 and Athlon 64 x2's. A 1230 v3, or 4770k, would be overkill for sure. A 1230 v3 is enough for any of the other games you listed as well. The added cost of overclocking just isn't worth it, considering it would cost you about $180 more to do so. That is enough for a nice 240gb SSD and possibly a 2tb hdd drive. PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($309.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ Micro Center)
Motherboard: Asus GRYPHON Z87 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($157.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $497.97
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:45 EDT-0400)
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: ASRock B85M Pro4 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $314.98
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-22 09:46 EDT-0400)
It seems like a sweet deal, and overclock capability is the only loss with Xeon? Also, does the fact that the Xeon is designed for servers a con for gaming?
You threw the Asus Gryphon MOBO in there, I've been considering that to be my MOBO and am almost set on it. You like it? You find it good?
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 7, 2014 7:42:55 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
And remember, the Xeon E3-1230v3 that logainofhades keeps pushing is pretty much an i7 4770K without the ability to overclock. In my opinion, it's a much more superior processor than the i5-4670K, especially when more games and apps start taking advantage of hyperthreading. And I believe they will in the very near future.So basically, you recommend the Xeon then? Is it good for "single core" tasks that people say current games use?
Hyperthreading options would be nice, and I don't know if I would ever overclock. I would definitely consider it, but I don't know much about overclocking.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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May 8, 2014 9:00:28 AM
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
And remember, the Xeon E3-1230v3 that logainofhades keeps pushing is pretty much an i7 4770K without the ability to overclock. In my opinion, it's a much more superior processor than the i5-4670K, especially when more games and apps start taking advantage of hyperthreading. And I believe they will in the very near future.So basically, you recommend the Xeon then? Is it good for "single core" tasks that people say current games use?
Hyperthreading options would be nice, and I don't know if I would ever overclock. I would definitely consider it, but I don't know much about overclocking.
It should be excellent for single core tasks. Honestly, if you're not going to overclock or have need for integrated graphics, it seems like this is a gold mine.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 9, 2014 12:11:19 PM
logainofhades said:
Only thing you are losing is overclocking capability. The 1230v3 will perform similar to an i7 4770. You do not need the Asus Gryphon as Z87 isn't necessary for a non overclocking build. But a decent motherboard should last up to 5 years or so, right? So, if I wanted to upgrade down the road possibly to an overclockable CPU, would the Z87 be a better call?
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 9, 2014 12:12:34 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
And remember, the Xeon E3-1230v3 that logainofhades keeps pushing is pretty much an i7 4770K without the ability to overclock. In my opinion, it's a much more superior processor than the i5-4670K, especially when more games and apps start taking advantage of hyperthreading. And I believe they will in the very near future.So basically, you recommend the Xeon then? Is it good for "single core" tasks that people say current games use?
Hyperthreading options would be nice, and I don't know if I would ever overclock. I would definitely consider it, but I don't know much about overclocking.
It should be excellent for single core tasks. Honestly, if you're not going to overclock or have need for integrated graphics, it seems like this is a gold mine.
That's very tempting haha. The only thing that seems odd about it is that the Xeon is designed for severs right? Is it ready to handle high end gaming? Not that most of my gaming will be high end.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
logainofhades
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May 9, 2014 12:16:02 PM
MrCanEHdian
May 9, 2014 7:17:22 PM
logainofhades said:
The Xeon 1230v3 is just an i7 without IGP and extra features you won't use, and costs less. It will perform nearly identical to an i7 4770. In 5yrs, you are better off just getting new anyway. Intel will have already moved on to another socket or 2 by that time. I'm beginning to lean towards the Xeon now lmao, thank you for the help/advice! I am considering maybe getting a Z97 in a few months instead, do you think the Xeon 1230v3 will be compatible with Z97s?
Argh, you can never win as a consumer.......
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 9, 2014 7:18:01 PM
sapperastro said:
Yes, but I think you are worrying too much. It can get to the point where you are always hanging out for the 'next big thing'. There are decent builds in this thread, perfect for your needs. If I were you, I wouldn't worry any longer, just get your gear.Exactly. Broadwell next year will use a different socket. It's always going to be like that. You pretty much just need to plan on buying a new motherboard in 5 years when you upgrade your CPU. There's no point in waiting because there will always be something better on the horizon to wait for. From what I'm hearing, Broadwell isn't going to be that huge of a jump from Haswell. The best way to do it is to just go with the best you can right now, and don't worry about it.
And about Xeons being for servers, like others have said, the 1230v3 is exactly the same as the i7 4770. There is no difference, other than the small differences we have mentioned, being no IGP, slightly lower clockspeed (200mhz), locked from overclocking, and added support for trusted computing. Other than that, it's exactly the same. The E3 Xeons are the low end Xeons for people like us. If you're working with servers, you're probably going to go with the more high end Xeons. When I first heard about this, I was confused about Xeons being for servers, too. But these E3 Xeons are perfect for people like us.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 10, 2014 4:18:46 PM
sapperastro said:
Yes, but I think you are worrying too much. It can get to the point where you are always hanging out for the 'next big thing'. There are decent builds in this thread, perfect for your needs. If I were you, I wouldn't worry any longer, just get your gear.Haha! I think I am too, I do that a lot. I'm not prepared financially and won't be because I'll be working two jobs until school starts again in September, so I likely won't be able to build until the end of August. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and be as ready as possible until then.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 10, 2014 4:23:41 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
sapperastro said:
Yes, but I think you are worrying too much. It can get to the point where you are always hanging out for the 'next big thing'. There are decent builds in this thread, perfect for your needs. If I were you, I wouldn't worry any longer, just get your gear.Exactly. Broadwell next year will use a different socket. It's always going to be like that. You pretty much just need to plan on buying a new motherboard in 5 years when you upgrade your CPU. There's no point in waiting because there will always be something better on the horizon to wait for. From what I'm hearing, Broadwell isn't going to be that huge of a jump from Haswell. The best way to do it is to just go with the best you can right now, and don't worry about it.
And about Xeons being for servers, like others have said, the 1230v3 is exactly the same as the i7 4770. There is no difference, other than the small differences we have mentioned, being no IGP, slightly lower clockspeed (200mhz), locked from overclocking, and added support for trusted computing. Other than that, it's exactly the same. The E3 Xeons are the low end Xeons for people like us. If you're working with servers, you're probably going to go with the more high end Xeons. When I first heard about this, I was confused about Xeons being for servers, too. But these E3 Xeons are perfect for people like us.
I thought the Z97s were supposed to be LGA 1150, and compatible with Broadwell? I'm guessing that they won't be compatible with Broadwell until shortly before Broadwell comes out......? I'll be ready for my purchase around July-August, probably August's end. Hopefully the answer will be more clear then, but I do agree, waiting for the next best thing is often a pointless, stressful endeavour, as technology changes so quickly.
Is trusted computing important? What exactly does it do? I'm cool with a locked processor for the first year or two I think, and an i7 4770k is a beast, so that is good! That's good, their prices are very attractive for what is offered. Thank you so much!
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
mordorrson
May 10, 2014 7:50:40 PM
I would say that everything here looks good, although, you might want to consider buying an FX-8320. It performs identically to the Xeon for everyday use and it's about $85 cheaper. However, there's two main differences: The 8320 is going to produce more heat (but that doesn't matter if you have a good cooling system, and you can get some cheap, good liquid cooling systems), and it performs much better under heavy loads. The higher clock rate and twice as many cores means it can do quite a few more things at once, and the 8MB L2 cache, as opposed to the Xeon's 1MB L2 cache, means that it will be able to fetch data for the processor much faster. Those parts don't matter for everyday use, but you'll notice a pretty huge difference when you try some serious multitasking, or play BF4 or Watch Dogs, especially if you want to turn up something like render/view distance, or anything else that relies more on your CPU than GPU. Incidentally, with the setup Logain mentioned, but with an 8320, you would be able to play Watch Dogs with everything maxed at 30+ FPS, the Xeon would let you max everything, but it would cost you about 20 of those frames, and in fast-paced games optimized for octo-cores, you don't just WANT all the frames, you NEED all the frames. Incidentally, the FX-8320 is also an unlocked processor
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Reply to mordorrson
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
sapperastro said:
Yes, but I think you are worrying too much. It can get to the point where you are always hanging out for the 'next big thing'. There are decent builds in this thread, perfect for your needs. If I were you, I wouldn't worry any longer, just get your gear.Exactly. Broadwell next year will use a different socket. It's always going to be like that. You pretty much just need to plan on buying a new motherboard in 5 years when you upgrade your CPU. There's no point in waiting because there will always be something better on the horizon to wait for. From what I'm hearing, Broadwell isn't going to be that huge of a jump from Haswell. The best way to do it is to just go with the best you can right now, and don't worry about it.
And about Xeons being for servers, like others have said, the 1230v3 is exactly the same as the i7 4770. There is no difference, other than the small differences we have mentioned, being no IGP, slightly lower clockspeed (200mhz), locked from overclocking, and added support for trusted computing. Other than that, it's exactly the same. The E3 Xeons are the low end Xeons for people like us. If you're working with servers, you're probably going to go with the more high end Xeons. When I first heard about this, I was confused about Xeons being for servers, too. But these E3 Xeons are perfect for people like us.
I thought the Z97s were supposed to be LGA 1150, and compatible with Broadwell? I'm guessing that they won't be compatible with Broadwell until shortly before Broadwell comes out......? I'll be ready for my purchase around July-August, probably August's end. Hopefully the answer will be more clear then, but I do agree, waiting for the next best thing is often a pointless, stressful endeavour, as technology changes so quickly.
Is trusted computing important? What exactly does it do? I'm cool with a locked processor for the first year or two I think, and an i7 4770k is a beast, so that is good! That's good, their prices are very attractive for what is offered. Thank you so much!
You're right, and I was wrong. Broadwell will still be LGA 1150. It's Skylake after Broadwell that will be LGA 1151 and break socket compatibility. But it still doesn't matter. The argument that there is always something on the horizon is still relevant. You want to buy in August or September, but Broadwell probably won't be available to buy until the beginning of 2015. If you buy Haswell, Broadwell probably won't be a big enough jump to be worth upgrading, and by the time you need to upgrade, you're still going to have to buy a new mobo.
As for Trusted Computing, no it's not necessary, and it's even kind of controversial. It's supposed to force your computer to run in expected ways. It's supposed to be added security by having a hardware encoded encryption key that helps prevent malicious things from being able to run. The downside is that opponents see it as DRM, and a way for the user to actually be locked out from being free to do what he wants. If you're going to run Linux, you might want to make sure your distro will work with Trusted Computing before you go this route. If you're just running Windows, it's probably not going to give you any trouble, and possibly could be beneficial in ways you may not notice.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 12, 2014 3:24:43 PM
mordorrson said:
I would say that everything here looks good, although, you might want to consider buying an FX-8320. It performs identically to the Xeon for everyday use and it's about $85 cheaper. However, there's two main differences: The 8320 is going to produce more heat (but that doesn't matter if you have a good cooling system, and you can get some cheap, good liquid cooling systems), and it performs much better under heavy loads. The higher clock rate and twice as many cores means it can do quite a few more things at once, and the 8MB L2 cache, as opposed to the Xeon's 1MB L2 cache, means that it will be able to fetch data for the processor much faster. Those parts don't matter for everyday use, but you'll notice a pretty huge difference when you try some serious multitasking, or play BF4 or Watch Dogs, especially if you want to turn up something like render/view distance, or anything else that relies more on your CPU than GPU. Incidentally, with the setup Logain mentioned, but with an 8320, you would be able to play Watch Dogs with everything maxed at 30+ FPS, the Xeon would let you max everything, but it would cost you about 20 of those frames, and in fast-paced games optimized for octo-cores, you don't just WANT all the frames, you NEED all the frames. Incidentally, the FX-8320 is also an unlocked processorAlthough I greatly appreciate your input, heat is one my big fears, and I will literally be doing absolutely no multi-tasking. If I'm gaming, it will be just the game.... And I don't think I'll be doing much more with a gaming PC other than gaming. That being said, I will look into the FX 8320, it would be nice to save money when possible. Also, even for gaming, I think 90% of my gaming will be strategy/simulation games. I caved and bought a PS4 because practically all my friends are console gamers. I'll likely be playing any FPSs on that. Strategy games are the "sweet spot" in gaming for me, my absolute favorite genre. So, Watch Dogs will be more CPU intensive than GPU intensive?
Unlocked, on the other hand, is attractive at that price point. Hyperthreading would be nice, but single core performance matters more to me now, mostly because of the strategy games. My laptop is hardly a gaming PC, but I sunk over 600 hours into Civ 5, and with a new PC, would like to sink another 1000 into it, and actually be able to finish a game without feeling like my PC is going to meltdown.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 12, 2014 3:31:38 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
sapperastro said:
Yes, but I think you are worrying too much. It can get to the point where you are always hanging out for the 'next big thing'. There are decent builds in this thread, perfect for your needs. If I were you, I wouldn't worry any longer, just get your gear.Exactly. Broadwell next year will use a different socket. It's always going to be like that. You pretty much just need to plan on buying a new motherboard in 5 years when you upgrade your CPU. There's no point in waiting because there will always be something better on the horizon to wait for. From what I'm hearing, Broadwell isn't going to be that huge of a jump from Haswell. The best way to do it is to just go with the best you can right now, and don't worry about it.
And about Xeons being for servers, like others have said, the 1230v3 is exactly the same as the i7 4770. There is no difference, other than the small differences we have mentioned, being no IGP, slightly lower clockspeed (200mhz), locked from overclocking, and added support for trusted computing. Other than that, it's exactly the same. The E3 Xeons are the low end Xeons for people like us. If you're working with servers, you're probably going to go with the more high end Xeons. When I first heard about this, I was confused about Xeons being for servers, too. But these E3 Xeons are perfect for people like us.
I thought the Z97s were supposed to be LGA 1150, and compatible with Broadwell? I'm guessing that they won't be compatible with Broadwell until shortly before Broadwell comes out......? I'll be ready for my purchase around July-August, probably August's end. Hopefully the answer will be more clear then, but I do agree, waiting for the next best thing is often a pointless, stressful endeavour, as technology changes so quickly.
Is trusted computing important? What exactly does it do? I'm cool with a locked processor for the first year or two I think, and an i7 4770k is a beast, so that is good! That's good, their prices are very attractive for what is offered. Thank you so much!
You're right, and I was wrong. Broadwell will still be LGA 1150. It's Skylake after Broadwell that will be LGA 1151 and break socket compatibility. But it still doesn't matter. The argument that there is always something on the horizon is still relevant. You want to buy in August or September, but Broadwell probably won't be available to buy until the beginning of 2015. If you buy Haswell, Broadwell probably won't be a big enough jump to be worth upgrading, and by the time you need to upgrade, you're still going to have to buy a new mobo.
As for Trusted Computing, no it's not necessary, and it's even kind of controversial. It's supposed to force your computer to run in expected ways. It's supposed to be added security by having a hardware encoded encryption key that helps prevent malicious things from being able to run. The downside is that opponents see it as DRM, and a way for the user to actually be locked out from being free to do what he wants. If you're going to run Linux, you might want to make sure your distro will work with Trusted Computing before you go this route. If you're just running Windows, it's probably not going to give you any trouble, and possibly could be beneficial in ways you may not notice.
I'm glad Broadwell will be 1150, but will it be significantly better and would it run on Z87 MOBOs? I wonder, if the Skylake will be a huge step forward... When do you think they will release that? Likely not soon enough to wait for it. Ahh I see, so Broadwell likely won't make any difference to me... Oh well, at least the option will be there.
I like the idea of superior encryption, but I don't like the idea of being "forced" to run in specific ways, since PCs are big on customization on how the system runs "optimally" for your needs. I will have to look into it. I've considered maybe getting SteamOS if it turns out be good and improve performance in any way, since it is Linux based, Trusted Computing could become a thorn in the users side if they want SteamOS I suspect.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
mordorrson
May 12, 2014 5:34:51 PM
MrCanEHdian said:
mordorrson said:
I would say that everything here looks good, although, you might want to consider buying an FX-8320. It performs identically to the Xeon for everyday use and it's about $85 cheaper. However, there's two main differences: The 8320 is going to produce more heat (but that doesn't matter if you have a good cooling system, and you can get some cheap, good liquid cooling systems), and it performs much better under heavy loads. The higher clock rate and twice as many cores means it can do quite a few more things at once, and the 8MB L2 cache, as opposed to the Xeon's 1MB L2 cache, means that it will be able to fetch data for the processor much faster. Those parts don't matter for everyday use, but you'll notice a pretty huge difference when you try some serious multitasking, or play BF4 or Watch Dogs, especially if you want to turn up something like render/view distance, or anything else that relies more on your CPU than GPU. Incidentally, with the setup Logain mentioned, but with an 8320, you would be able to play Watch Dogs with everything maxed at 30+ FPS, the Xeon would let you max everything, but it would cost you about 20 of those frames, and in fast-paced games optimized for octo-cores, you don't just WANT all the frames, you NEED all the frames. Incidentally, the FX-8320 is also an unlocked processorAlthough I greatly appreciate your input, heat is one my big fears, and I will literally be doing absolutely no multi-tasking. If I'm gaming, it will be just the game.... And I don't think I'll be doing much more with a gaming PC other than gaming. That being said, I will look into the FX 8320, it would be nice to save money when possible. Also, even for gaming, I think 90% of my gaming will be strategy/simulation games. I caved and bought a PS4 because practically all my friends are console gamers. I'll likely be playing any FPSs on that. Strategy games are the "sweet spot" in gaming for me, my absolute favorite genre. So, Watch Dogs will be more CPU intensive than GPU intensive?
Unlocked, on the other hand, is attractive at that price point. Hyperthreading would be nice, but single core performance matters more to me now, mostly because of the strategy games. My laptop is hardly a gaming PC, but I sunk over 600 hours into Civ 5, and with a new PC, would like to sink another 1000 into it, and actually be able to finish a game without feeling like my PC is going to meltdown.
Heat isn't too big of a worry, even on AMD cores. the 8320 takes 125W so it'll produce more heat than most Intel cores, but a decent cooling system that's 120-140mm, most likely liquid cooled, with a few case fans will do the trick. Of course, you'll have the case fans anyway. The cooling system would cost around $30-$60 depending on whether its 120/140mm and air/water cooled. Admittedly, if you're gonna OC then you'll definitely want a cooler that's a bit more powerful. Although, if you don't plan on playing any really high end games, you might want to just get an A10-7850K and an R7 250 and save a few hundred bucks. It'll give you the best integrated graphics on the market (which you can crossfire with the 250) and it has steamroller architecture as opposed to the piledriver that's used in FX cores, so it'll give you a fair amount more performance per core, even though it's only a quad. Sadly, AMD cores don't support hyper threading (maybe in the future?).
Watch Dogs won't necessarily be more CPU than GPU intensive, but there are certain settings that will affect one more than the other. For example, turning up the view distance will increase demand on the CPU a lot more because there will be a lot more AI to load up, so that there's no stuttering when you actually see it; whereas increasing the resolution it's played at or the quality of the textures will increase the GPU load because it's loading more pixels in more detail.
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Reply to mordorrson
pabarstukai
May 12, 2014 5:59:58 PM
This is my Xeon build. Just finished few days ago. I already started purchasing the parts. I believe this thing has pretty high performance/price ratio. So you can save some of those dollars, and go with something like this. It will be ok for nowadays games to run @ 60fps I think on Ultra or High. It should last for a next 3-4 years, and by the time then you can just buy new mobo/processor and gpu for a upgrade.
p.s. Although I am still not 100% sure about h87 fatality mobo, because I wasn't be able to find some opinions about it, except those reviews. It looks bad ass as h87 chip mobo for a 100$ on a paper, and in those reviews, but I want some people thoughts about it.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.94 @ OutletPC)
Thermal Compound: Noctua NT-H1 3.5g Thermal Paste ($5.44 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty H87 Performance ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($107.86 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($56.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 770 2GB DirectCU II Video Card ($328.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 (Arctic White) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1109.15
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-05-12 20:53 EDT-0400)
p.s. Although I am still not 100% sure about h87 fatality mobo, because I wasn't be able to find some opinions about it, except those reviews. It looks bad ass as h87 chip mobo for a 100$ on a paper, and in those reviews, but I want some people thoughts about it.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.94 @ OutletPC)
Thermal Compound: Noctua NT-H1 3.5g Thermal Paste ($5.44 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty H87 Performance ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($107.86 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($56.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 770 2GB DirectCU II Video Card ($328.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 (Arctic White) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1109.15
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-05-12 20:53 EDT-0400)
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Reply to pabarstukai
MrCanEHdian said:
I'm glad Broadwell will be 1150, but will it be significantly better and would it run on Z87 MOBOs? I wonder, if the Skylake will be a huge step forward... When do you think they will release that? Likely not soon enough to wait for it. Ahh I see, so Broadwell likely won't make any difference to me... Oh well, at least the option will be there.
I like the idea of superior encryption, but I don't like the idea of being "forced" to run in specific ways, since PCs are big on customization on how the system runs "optimally" for your needs. I will have to look into it. I've considered maybe getting SteamOS if it turns out be good and improve performance in any way, since it is Linux based, Trusted Computing could become a thorn in the users side if they want SteamOS I suspect.
Well, I was kind of mistaken again. I've learned some more about it. Even though Broadwell is LGA1150, the new features still break compatibility with older 1150 boards, so it won't work with the Z87. But it will work with the newer Z97, which will support Haswell and Broadwell both. As for Skylake, who knows how much of a jump it will be? It won't be out until 2016, so there's no point in waiting for it.
As for SteamOS, I don't think I would count on it. It's true that Valve is getting better performance out of their Linux ports. But the thing is, it's going to be a long time before SteamOS gets the kind of game support that they have in Windows. I'm sure whatever Valve comes up with will definitely work on it. But as for all of the 3rd party game devs, it's completely up to them whether they want to port to Linux or not. Plus, there are still tons of games that aren't in Steam. I think SteamOS will probably be a viable solution down the road, but for now, you're not going to beat Windows for PC gaming. You're better off just running Steam for Windows in full screen mode, and importing all of your non-Steam games into Steam.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
logainofhades
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May 13, 2014 6:20:49 AM
pabarstukai said:
This is my Xeon build. Just finished few days ago. I already started purchasing the parts. I believe this thing has pretty high performance/price ratio. So you can save some of those dollars, and go with something like this. It will be ok for nowadays games to run @ 60fps I think on Ultra or High. It should last for a next 3-4 years, and by the time then you can just buy new mobo/processor and gpu for a upgrade.p.s. Although I am still not 100% sure about h87 fatality mobo, because I wasn't be able to find some opinions about it, except those reviews. It looks bad ass as h87 chip mobo for a 100$ on a paper, and in those reviews, but I want some people thoughts about it.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.94 @ OutletPC)
Thermal Compound: Noctua NT-H1 3.5g Thermal Paste ($5.44 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty H87 Performance ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($107.86 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($56.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 770 2GB DirectCU II Video Card ($328.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 (Arctic White) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1109.15
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-05-12 20:53 EDT-0400)
For the price of that board, you could get the Z87 extreme3 and have SLI/Crossfire support.
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Reply to logainofhades
MrCanEHdian
May 13, 2014 10:02:28 AM
mordorrson said:
MrCanEHdian said:
mordorrson said:
I would say that everything here looks good, although, you might want to consider buying an FX-8320. It performs identically to the Xeon for everyday use and it's about $85 cheaper. However, there's two main differences: The 8320 is going to produce more heat (but that doesn't matter if you have a good cooling system, and you can get some cheap, good liquid cooling systems), and it performs much better under heavy loads. The higher clock rate and twice as many cores means it can do quite a few more things at once, and the 8MB L2 cache, as opposed to the Xeon's 1MB L2 cache, means that it will be able to fetch data for the processor much faster. Those parts don't matter for everyday use, but you'll notice a pretty huge difference when you try some serious multitasking, or play BF4 or Watch Dogs, especially if you want to turn up something like render/view distance, or anything else that relies more on your CPU than GPU. Incidentally, with the setup Logain mentioned, but with an 8320, you would be able to play Watch Dogs with everything maxed at 30+ FPS, the Xeon would let you max everything, but it would cost you about 20 of those frames, and in fast-paced games optimized for octo-cores, you don't just WANT all the frames, you NEED all the frames. Incidentally, the FX-8320 is also an unlocked processorAlthough I greatly appreciate your input, heat is one my big fears, and I will literally be doing absolutely no multi-tasking. If I'm gaming, it will be just the game.... And I don't think I'll be doing much more with a gaming PC other than gaming. That being said, I will look into the FX 8320, it would be nice to save money when possible. Also, even for gaming, I think 90% of my gaming will be strategy/simulation games. I caved and bought a PS4 because practically all my friends are console gamers. I'll likely be playing any FPSs on that. Strategy games are the "sweet spot" in gaming for me, my absolute favorite genre. So, Watch Dogs will be more CPU intensive than GPU intensive?
Unlocked, on the other hand, is attractive at that price point. Hyperthreading would be nice, but single core performance matters more to me now, mostly because of the strategy games. My laptop is hardly a gaming PC, but I sunk over 600 hours into Civ 5, and with a new PC, would like to sink another 1000 into it, and actually be able to finish a game without feeling like my PC is going to meltdown.
Heat isn't too big of a worry, even on AMD cores. the 8320 takes 125W so it'll produce more heat than most Intel cores, but a decent cooling system that's 120-140mm, most likely liquid cooled, with a few case fans will do the trick. Of course, you'll have the case fans anyway. The cooling system would cost around $30-$60 depending on whether its 120/140mm and air/water cooled. Admittedly, if you're gonna OC then you'll definitely want a cooler that's a bit more powerful. Although, if you don't plan on playing any really high end games, you might want to just get an A10-7850K and an R7 250 and save a few hundred bucks. It'll give you the best integrated graphics on the market (which you can crossfire with the 250) and it has steamroller architecture as opposed to the piledriver that's used in FX cores, so it'll give you a fair amount more performance per core, even though it's only a quad. Sadly, AMD cores don't support hyper threading (maybe in the future?).
Watch Dogs won't necessarily be more CPU than GPU intensive, but there are certain settings that will affect one more than the other. For example, turning up the view distance will increase demand on the CPU a lot more because there will be a lot more AI to load up, so that there's no stuttering when you actually see it; whereas increasing the resolution it's played at or the quality of the textures will increase the GPU load because it's loading more pixels in more detail.
You can get water coolers that cost less than $90? I was set on the Cooler Master Hyper EVO 212 for $30, but a liquid cooling system could be really cool too.
The reason I want high end components is so I can be at least somewhat up to date for a while. I want to be able to play games like Wargame: Red Dragon really well, and future intense strategy games. My friend's brother has a "gaming" PC, it's pretty outdated, but it still dominates over my laptop that is "only" 2 years old. The components in his PC are AMD and all very old, but the games run very well on his PC. Planetside 2 runs at something like med-high, and DayZ Standalone runs and med-high. Not bad for a rig that's like 5 years old, I want something like that!
Why do AMD CPUs not support hyperthreading? I thought BF4 ran much better on AMD than Intel, and hyperthreaded CPUS.
View distance is something I'd LOVE to take advantage of. I was playing BF4 on PS4 (I splurged, will be working 70 hours a week this summer to afford these luxuries), and although it looks awesome, the draw distance is kinda crappy, vegetation comes into view like 20 feet ahead of your character.... Not impressed.
AI is another thing I want a "peak condition", I loved the AI in FC3. From your definition of both components strengths, I would say that the CPU is the most "important" component for me, as it seems to handle my favorite aspects. Thanks!
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 13, 2014 10:04:51 AM
pabarstukai said:
This is my Xeon build. Just finished few days ago. I already started purchasing the parts. I believe this thing has pretty high performance/price ratio. So you can save some of those dollars, and go with something like this. It will be ok for nowadays games to run @ 60fps I think on Ultra or High. It should last for a next 3-4 years, and by the time then you can just buy new mobo/processor and gpu for a upgrade.p.s. Although I am still not 100% sure about h87 fatality mobo, because I wasn't be able to find some opinions about it, except those reviews. It looks bad ass as h87 chip mobo for a 100$ on a paper, and in those reviews, but I want some people thoughts about it.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.94 @ OutletPC)
Thermal Compound: Noctua NT-H1 3.5g Thermal Paste ($5.44 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty H87 Performance ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($107.86 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($56.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 770 2GB DirectCU II Video Card ($328.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 (Arctic White) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1109.15
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-05-12 20:53 EDT-0400)
That's a gorgeous build for that price, very, very nice. This is the place to ask about those kinds of things. The people here are very knowledgeable, courteous, and invest a lot of time into helping others. They really go way out of their way to lend you a hand.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 13, 2014 10:16:04 AM
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
I'm glad Broadwell will be 1150, but will it be significantly better and would it run on Z87 MOBOs? I wonder, if the Skylake will be a huge step forward... When do you think they will release that? Likely not soon enough to wait for it. Ahh I see, so Broadwell likely won't make any difference to me... Oh well, at least the option will be there.
I like the idea of superior encryption, but I don't like the idea of being "forced" to run in specific ways, since PCs are big on customization on how the system runs "optimally" for your needs. I will have to look into it. I've considered maybe getting SteamOS if it turns out be good and improve performance in any way, since it is Linux based, Trusted Computing could become a thorn in the users side if they want SteamOS I suspect.
Well, I was kind of mistaken again. I've learned some more about it. Even though Broadwell is LGA1150, the new features still break compatibility with older 1150 boards, so it won't work with the Z87. But it will work with the newer Z97, which will support Haswell and Broadwell both. As for Skylake, who knows how much of a jump it will be? It won't be out until 2016, so there's no point in waiting for it.
As for SteamOS, I don't think I would count on it. It's true that Valve is getting better performance out of their Linux ports. But the thing is, it's going to be a long time before SteamOS gets the kind of game support that they have in Windows. I'm sure whatever Valve comes up with will definitely work on it. But as for all of the 3rd party game devs, it's completely up to them whether they want to port to Linux or not. Plus, there are still tons of games that aren't in Steam. I think SteamOS will probably be a viable solution down the road, but for now, you're not going to beat Windows for PC gaming. You're better off just running Steam for Windows in full screen mode, and importing all of your non-Steam games into Steam.
Of course they would make it incompatible.... Very typical of businesses. I guess I can't really blame them though. Ya, ok I'll go with the Z97 I think, 2016 is quite far to wait for lmao. The MSI Z97 Gaming 7, someone mentioned, is a very very nice board by the looks of it, and the price for the quality is very good by the looks of it as well.
So even for a gamer, relying on SteamOS would be unwise because they 3rd party developers may just stick with Windows? Very good point, I want LotR Battle for Middle Earth 1 and 2, but no site seems to have that. I'll take your advice and go with Windows, from Windows 7. Thank you.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
I have managed to get many of my older games running on 8.1. It depends on what games we are talking about here. I have heard people have probs with both 7 and 8 for old games.
For ancient games, I use dosbox.
Then we come to the pita era; win95 and 98 games. Some work, some don't. Sometimes I have to hope that good old games brings out an old favourite, and others times they just work. Installing the exe file in compatibility mode sometimes works too.
The only problem, so far, I have had with XP games is drakensang where I have had to play it in a window to work.
This is all on win 8.1.
For ancient games, I use dosbox.
Then we come to the pita era; win95 and 98 games. Some work, some don't. Sometimes I have to hope that good old games brings out an old favourite, and others times they just work. Installing the exe file in compatibility mode sometimes works too.
The only problem, so far, I have had with XP games is drakensang where I have had to play it in a window to work.
This is all on win 8.1.
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Reply to sapperastro
MrCanEHdian
May 17, 2014 12:09:32 PM
sapperastro said:
I have managed to get many of my older games running on 8.1. It depends on what games we are talking about here. I have heard people have probs with both 7 and 8 for old games.For ancient games, I use dosbox.
Then we come to the pita era; win95 and 98 games. Some work, some don't. Sometimes I have to hope that good old games brings out an old favourite, and others times they just work. Installing the exe file in compatibility mode sometimes works too.
The only problem, so far, I have had with XP games is drakensang where I have had to play it in a window to work.
This is all on win 8.1.
So it's pretty good already, and it's not all that old. That's good news. My "list" of old games is pretty tiny, but I like to look for old gems, like Port Royale 2, which was on sale on Steam yesterday. It'd be a shame if a lot of old games didn't work, but you and others say 8.1 is pretty good. I'd be interested in Battle for Middle Earth, but that game is impossible to find for a non-outrageous price on Ebay.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
I'm glad Broadwell will be 1150, but will it be significantly better and would it run on Z87 MOBOs? I wonder, if the Skylake will be a huge step forward... When do you think they will release that? Likely not soon enough to wait for it. Ahh I see, so Broadwell likely won't make any difference to me... Oh well, at least the option will be there.
I like the idea of superior encryption, but I don't like the idea of being "forced" to run in specific ways, since PCs are big on customization on how the system runs "optimally" for your needs. I will have to look into it. I've considered maybe getting SteamOS if it turns out be good and improve performance in any way, since it is Linux based, Trusted Computing could become a thorn in the users side if they want SteamOS I suspect.
Well, I was kind of mistaken again. I've learned some more about it. Even though Broadwell is LGA1150, the new features still break compatibility with older 1150 boards, so it won't work with the Z87. But it will work with the newer Z97, which will support Haswell and Broadwell both. As for Skylake, who knows how much of a jump it will be? It won't be out until 2016, so there's no point in waiting for it.
As for SteamOS, I don't think I would count on it. It's true that Valve is getting better performance out of their Linux ports. But the thing is, it's going to be a long time before SteamOS gets the kind of game support that they have in Windows. I'm sure whatever Valve comes up with will definitely work on it. But as for all of the 3rd party game devs, it's completely up to them whether they want to port to Linux or not. Plus, there are still tons of games that aren't in Steam. I think SteamOS will probably be a viable solution down the road, but for now, you're not going to beat Windows for PC gaming. You're better off just running Steam for Windows in full screen mode, and importing all of your non-Steam games into Steam.
Of course they would make it incompatible.... Very typical of businesses. I guess I can't really blame them though. Ya, ok I'll go with the Z97 I think, 2016 is quite far to wait for lmao. The MSI Z97 Gaming 7, someone mentioned, is a very very nice board by the looks of it, and the price for the quality is very good by the looks of it as well.
So even for a gamer, relying on SteamOS would be unwise because they 3rd party developers may just stick with Windows? Very good point, I want LotR Battle for Middle Earth 1 and 2, but no site seems to have that. I'll take your advice and go with Windows, from Windows 7. Thank you.
Yeah, I think SteamOS has the potential to be a great platform sometime down the road. But if you want to maximize your game support, it's probably not wise to be an early adopter.
And if I were you, I would think seriously about going Windows 8.1 + Classic Shell. DirectX 11.2 is exclusive to Win8 and the Xbox One, and that will be important to future gaming. Classic Shell will put it back to where it looks and operates like Win7, but has the added stability and features of Win8. In my opinion, it's not worth it to pay to upgrade Win7 to Win8, but if you're buying new, I definitely would go Win8.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 15, 2014 4:54:15 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
I'm glad Broadwell will be 1150, but will it be significantly better and would it run on Z87 MOBOs? I wonder, if the Skylake will be a huge step forward... When do you think they will release that? Likely not soon enough to wait for it. Ahh I see, so Broadwell likely won't make any difference to me... Oh well, at least the option will be there.
I like the idea of superior encryption, but I don't like the idea of being "forced" to run in specific ways, since PCs are big on customization on how the system runs "optimally" for your needs. I will have to look into it. I've considered maybe getting SteamOS if it turns out be good and improve performance in any way, since it is Linux based, Trusted Computing could become a thorn in the users side if they want SteamOS I suspect.
Well, I was kind of mistaken again. I've learned some more about it. Even though Broadwell is LGA1150, the new features still break compatibility with older 1150 boards, so it won't work with the Z87. But it will work with the newer Z97, which will support Haswell and Broadwell both. As for Skylake, who knows how much of a jump it will be? It won't be out until 2016, so there's no point in waiting for it.
As for SteamOS, I don't think I would count on it. It's true that Valve is getting better performance out of their Linux ports. But the thing is, it's going to be a long time before SteamOS gets the kind of game support that they have in Windows. I'm sure whatever Valve comes up with will definitely work on it. But as for all of the 3rd party game devs, it's completely up to them whether they want to port to Linux or not. Plus, there are still tons of games that aren't in Steam. I think SteamOS will probably be a viable solution down the road, but for now, you're not going to beat Windows for PC gaming. You're better off just running Steam for Windows in full screen mode, and importing all of your non-Steam games into Steam.
Of course they would make it incompatible.... Very typical of businesses. I guess I can't really blame them though. Ya, ok I'll go with the Z97 I think, 2016 is quite far to wait for lmao. The MSI Z97 Gaming 7, someone mentioned, is a very very nice board by the looks of it, and the price for the quality is very good by the looks of it as well.
So even for a gamer, relying on SteamOS would be unwise because they 3rd party developers may just stick with Windows? Very good point, I want LotR Battle for Middle Earth 1 and 2, but no site seems to have that. I'll take your advice and go with Windows, from Windows 7. Thank you.
Yeah, I think SteamOS has the potential to be a great platform sometime down the road. But if you want to maximize your game support, it's probably not wise to be an early adopter.
And if I were you, I would think seriously about going Windows 8.1 + Classic Shell. DirectX 11.2 is exclusive to Win8 and the Xbox One, and that will be important to future gaming. Classic Shell will put it back to where it looks and operates like Win7, but has the added stability and features of Win8. In my opinion, it's not worth it to pay to upgrade Win7 to Win8, but if you're buying new, I definitely would go Win8.
Is that so, for Windows 8? Is there much variation in performance on either OS? I figured games would run better on Windows 7. In that case, Windows 8 seems like a good call. Will old games run well on it though?
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
mordorrson
May 18, 2014 4:39:13 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
I can't say for sure, but I think any game that has trouble in Win8 would also probably have trouble in Win7. You basically have to choose what's more important, modern and future gaming, or retro. If old games are more important, throw an old copy of XP on there.Actually no, Win8 has significantly more bugs and incompatibility problems than Win7 does, although Win7 does have some of its own, its much more compatible, although I couldn't say for Win8.1, it would probably have less bugs than Win8, but more than Win7, although it would certainly have a few features that make up for that. Putting XP on it is a really bad idea as it's not only hard to find and doesn't support DirectX10 or 11, but Microsoft stopped support for it, which means your computer will be much more vulnerable to all types of security risks.
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Reply to mordorrson
MrCanEHdian
May 18, 2014 8:45:14 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
I can't say for sure, but I think any game that has trouble in Win8 would also probably have trouble in Win7. You basically have to choose what's more important, modern and future gaming, or retro. If old games are more important, throw an old copy of XP on there.I guess modern is most important, then future, then retro, but Microsoft is ending their support for XP aren't they? I would feel to vulnerable with it, I think.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian
May 18, 2014 8:46:37 PM
mordorrson said:
WoodenSaucer said:
I can't say for sure, but I think any game that has trouble in Win8 would also probably have trouble in Win7. You basically have to choose what's more important, modern and future gaming, or retro. If old games are more important, throw an old copy of XP on there.Actually no, Win8 has significantly more bugs and incompatibility problems than Win7 does, although Win7 does have some of its own, its much more compatible, although I couldn't say for Win8.1, it would probably have less bugs than Win8, but more than Win7, although it would certainly have a few features that make up for that. Putting XP on it is a really bad idea as it's not only hard to find and doesn't support DirectX10 or 11, but Microsoft stopped support for it, which means your computer will be much more vulnerable to all types of security risks.
So, in your opinion, Win7 is the best to go with now, given the choice? One could always "upgrade" to 8 if necessary I suppose, although it's a bit pricey.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
mordorrson said:
Actually no, Win8 has significantly more bugs and incompatibility problems than Win7 does, although Win7 does have some of its own, its much more compatible, although I couldn't say for Win8.1, it would probably have less bugs than Win8, but more than Win7, although it would certainly have a few features that make up for that. Putting XP on it is a really bad idea as it's not only hard to find and doesn't support DirectX10 or 11, but Microsoft stopped support for it, which means your computer will be much more vulnerable to all types of security risks.
MrCanEHdian said:
So, in your opinion, Win7 is the best to go with now, given the choice? One could always "upgrade" to 8 if necessary I suppose, although it's a bit pricey.
He's talking about for older game compatibility. If current and future games are your priority, then it's no question that you should go with Win8.1, in my opinion.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 19, 2014 9:53:26 AM
WoodenSaucer said:
mordorrson said:
Actually no, Win8 has significantly more bugs and incompatibility problems than Win7 does, although Win7 does have some of its own, its much more compatible, although I couldn't say for Win8.1, it would probably have less bugs than Win8, but more than Win7, although it would certainly have a few features that make up for that. Putting XP on it is a really bad idea as it's not only hard to find and doesn't support DirectX10 or 11, but Microsoft stopped support for it, which means your computer will be much more vulnerable to all types of security risks.
MrCanEHdian said:
So, in your opinion, Win7 is the best to go with now, given the choice? One could always "upgrade" to 8 if necessary I suppose, although it's a bit pricey.
He's talking about for older game compatibility. If current and future games are your priority, then it's no question that you should go with Win8.1, in my opinion.
I guess when I say old, I mean like STALKER Call of Pripyat, I've had for a while but it runs at poor frames on my laptop. Civ 5, and Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion are not that old, I can't imagine they'd be an issue. I'd like to play Age of Wonders and Heroes of Might and Magic. Battle for Middle Earth would be awesome, but I can only find it on Ebay for very high prices. Gal Civ 2 is fairly old I think, I also sort of enjoy Stronghold and Stronghold 2, Star Wars: Empire at War, X3: Terran Conflict, and Empire: Total War. Not sure how old those are though, and if compatibility with Win8.1 would be a concern.
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
MrCanEHdian said:
I guess when I say old, I mean like STALKER Call of Pripyat, I've had for a while but it runs at poor frames on my laptop. Civ 5, and Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion are not that old, I can't imagine they'd be an issue. I'd like to play Age of Wonders and Heroes of Might and Magic. Battle for Middle Earth would be awesome, but I can only find it on Ebay for very high prices. Gal Civ 2 is fairly old I think, I also sort of enjoy Stronghold and Stronghold 2, Star Wars: Empire at War, X3: Terran Conflict, and Empire: Total War. Not sure how old those are though, and if compatibility with Win8.1 would be a concern.
Go to the Windows Compatibility Center, and enter in any game you want to check out, and it will tell you if it is compatible or not. I checked out a few on your list, and the ones I checked were compatible.
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Reply to WoodenSaucer
MrCanEHdian
May 19, 2014 5:19:53 PM
WoodenSaucer said:
MrCanEHdian said:
I guess when I say old, I mean like STALKER Call of Pripyat, I've had for a while but it runs at poor frames on my laptop. Civ 5, and Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion are not that old, I can't imagine they'd be an issue. I'd like to play Age of Wonders and Heroes of Might and Magic. Battle for Middle Earth would be awesome, but I can only find it on Ebay for very high prices. Gal Civ 2 is fairly old I think, I also sort of enjoy Stronghold and Stronghold 2, Star Wars: Empire at War, X3: Terran Conflict, and Empire: Total War. Not sure how old those are though, and if compatibility with Win8.1 would be a concern.
Go to the Windows Compatibility Center, and enter in any game you want to check out, and it will tell you if it is compatible or not. I checked out a few on your list, and the ones I checked were compatible.
Damn, it's that easy? I will use that lmao, very very useful to help avoid wasting money and nerves! Thank you!
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Reply to MrCanEHdian
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