Monster AMD Livestreaming/Gaming Build HELP? $2500 budget
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Gaming
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CPUs
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AMD
- livestreaming
- Build
- fx-8350
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Systems
Last response: in Systems
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 12:06:17 PM
So like the title implies, I have done a lot of research on what i wanted for a gaming/livestreaming build, and I think that this is going to give me the best bang for my buck, but i want to know what you all think? is there something that i should swap out or any tweaks that would make this better? will all these components work together? want to use this as my final check on everything!
The goal of the build is to play all games on High/ultra at +60 fps while straming to twitch.tv/shotgunrumble with amazing quality.
plus i have picked different componenents that would look good with a panel becasue i plan on replacing the mesh on the case with plexiglass
Build List /w links to products (newegg):
***processor/motherboard/ram combo***
CPU: Amd FX-8350
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-990FXA-UD3 AM3+ AMD 990FX
Ram: HyperX Fury Black Series 8GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?I...
Case: rosewill thor v2 white
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Hard Drive (for files and games): WD BLACK SERIES WD1003FZEX 1TB 7200 RPM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SSD (for OS and programs): Mushkin Enhanced Chronos
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Power supply: Rosewill LIGHTNING-1300 1300W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CPU Cooling: NZXT Kraken X61
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Graphics Card: GIGABYTE GV-N970G1 GAMING-4GD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Operating System: Windows 7 home premium
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
***NOW FOR THE PERIPHERALS AND BONUS STUFF FOR LIVESTREAMING***
Monitor: ASUS VS278Q-P Black 27" 1ms
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Webcam: Logitech C920 USB 2.0 certified
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mic: Blue Microphones YETI USB Condenser Plug-and-Play Microphone With Kit - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA29P...
Keyboard: Logitech G710 PLUS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mouse: (wanted something good for FPS and Mobas): LOGITECH G502
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mouse Pad: Rosewill REACT Gaming Mouse Pad
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
*** will remove pre-applied thermal paste from nzxt cooler to lower temp***
Thermal Compound: arctic silver 5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
any changes? imporvments? or should this be good for everything?, and i know the monitor is only 60hz
but its got that good price!!!
lets discuss this build!
also things to note: eventually i will be running 3 of these monitors and a 4th on top for twitch chat and probably getting another windforce gpu in sli
The goal of the build is to play all games on High/ultra at +60 fps while straming to twitch.tv/shotgunrumble with amazing quality.
plus i have picked different componenents that would look good with a panel becasue i plan on replacing the mesh on the case with plexiglass
Build List /w links to products (newegg):
***processor/motherboard/ram combo***
CPU: Amd FX-8350
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-990FXA-UD3 AM3+ AMD 990FX
Ram: HyperX Fury Black Series 8GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?I...
Case: rosewill thor v2 white
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Hard Drive (for files and games): WD BLACK SERIES WD1003FZEX 1TB 7200 RPM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SSD (for OS and programs): Mushkin Enhanced Chronos
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Power supply: Rosewill LIGHTNING-1300 1300W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CPU Cooling: NZXT Kraken X61
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Graphics Card: GIGABYTE GV-N970G1 GAMING-4GD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Operating System: Windows 7 home premium
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
***NOW FOR THE PERIPHERALS AND BONUS STUFF FOR LIVESTREAMING***
Monitor: ASUS VS278Q-P Black 27" 1ms
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Webcam: Logitech C920 USB 2.0 certified
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mic: Blue Microphones YETI USB Condenser Plug-and-Play Microphone With Kit - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA29P...
Keyboard: Logitech G710 PLUS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mouse: (wanted something good for FPS and Mobas): LOGITECH G502
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Mouse Pad: Rosewill REACT Gaming Mouse Pad
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
*** will remove pre-applied thermal paste from nzxt cooler to lower temp***
Thermal Compound: arctic silver 5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
any changes? imporvments? or should this be good for everything?, and i know the monitor is only 60hz
but its got that good price!!!lets discuss this build!
also things to note: eventually i will be running 3 of these monitors and a 4th on top for twitch chat and probably getting another windforce gpu in sli
More about : monster amd livestreaming gaming build 2500 budget
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Reply to shotgunrumble
You will be fine with a 650 watt psu even if you overclock
arctic silver is not even very good . Chances are it will be worse than the krakens stock paste solution
If you used a 120 gig SSD and a reasonably sized psu you could almost afford a GTX 980 . Again a 650 watt psu would be fine .
SLI GTX 980's would require a 750 watt psu . 650 would SLI 970's
The RAM is CAS 10 . Nott really good , but it wont hurt gaming performance
arctic silver is not even very good . Chances are it will be worse than the krakens stock paste solution
If you used a 120 gig SSD and a reasonably sized psu you could almost afford a GTX 980 . Again a 650 watt psu would be fine .
SLI GTX 980's would require a 750 watt psu . 650 would SLI 970's
The RAM is CAS 10 . Nott really good , but it wont hurt gaming performance
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Reply to Outlander_04
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 12:25:31 PM
Outlander_04 said:
You will be fine with a 650 watt psu even if you overclock arctic silver is not even very good . Chances are it will be worse than the krakens stock paste solution
If you used a 120 gig SSD and a reasonably sized psu you could almost afford a GTX 980 . Again a 650 watt psu would be fine .
SLI GTX 980's would require a 750 watt psu . 650 would SLI 970's
The RAM is CAS 10 . Nott really good , but it wont hurt gaming performance
can you throw me a few likes to your alternatves to these products on newegg ie/ better ram, better thermal paste, ssd? the reason i picked the 970 is because i could run 2 of the cards and have way better preformance than just 1 980 and i didnt think the price justified the 10-15 fps when i could double 970's and get 20-50 fps boost...
what rosewill psu would you recommend for 3 970's or 2 980's?
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Reply to shotgunrumble
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You could also SLI the 980 by the same logic.
I'd keep the 250GB SSD, anything less becomes annoying to manage (IMHO). I'm not sure about the Mushkin series. I have yet to read up on it, but most people here recommend Crucial MX100 for value, and Samsung 840 EVO for performance.
Also, in this range, most people go with an Intel i7-4790 (K edition if overclocking). It will run circles around the FX-8350 in 90% of the gaming scenarios.
I wouldn't recommend any Rosewell PSU's, although I've heard the "HIVE" series isn't bad. Look at any XFX PSU in that price range. If you have the budget, you can pay more for a Gold+ or modular edition.
PS: I own that keyboard, and it's a blast. Never can go back to a regular keyboard once you go mechanical.
I'd keep the 250GB SSD, anything less becomes annoying to manage (IMHO). I'm not sure about the Mushkin series. I have yet to read up on it, but most people here recommend Crucial MX100 for value, and Samsung 840 EVO for performance.
Also, in this range, most people go with an Intel i7-4790 (K edition if overclocking). It will run circles around the FX-8350 in 90% of the gaming scenarios.
I wouldn't recommend any Rosewell PSU's, although I've heard the "HIVE" series isn't bad. Look at any XFX PSU in that price range. If you have the budget, you can pay more for a Gold+ or modular edition.
PS: I own that keyboard, and it's a blast. Never can go back to a regular keyboard once you go mechanical.
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Reply to Rapajez
Not counting peripherals, this is what I'd build.
You can jump up to 850W PSU, if you think you'll SLI, but even a 750 should handle 2 970's.
Also, your original build had 1 stick of RAM. You want a dual-channel kit (2x4) to take advantage of dual-channel technology (double the bandwidth? ish?).
Case is subjective. Corsair Carbide series, NXZT Phantom are other good choices.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($336.93 @ OutletPC)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 65.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($74.98 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD3H ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($135.99 @ NCIX US)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($94.99 @ Adorama)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($129.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($53.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 980 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card ($569.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 w/Window (Black Pearl) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.25 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX ProSeries 750W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($13.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($89.98 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1680.06
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-08 15:44 EDT-0400
You can jump up to 850W PSU, if you think you'll SLI, but even a 750 should handle 2 970's.
Also, your original build had 1 stick of RAM. You want a dual-channel kit (2x4) to take advantage of dual-channel technology (double the bandwidth? ish?).
Case is subjective. Corsair Carbide series, NXZT Phantom are other good choices.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($336.93 @ OutletPC)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 65.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($74.98 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD3H ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($135.99 @ NCIX US)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($94.99 @ Adorama)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($129.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($53.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 980 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card ($569.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 w/Window (Black Pearl) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.25 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX ProSeries 750W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($13.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($89.98 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1680.06
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-08 15:44 EDT-0400
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Reply to Rapajez
If you intend streaming then the 8 core AMD will have the edge on the intel . The extra cores start to count in multitasking scenarios , and yours is one where the AMD will shine compared to the intel .
You do not need a rosewill psu just because you use a Rosewill case . The mounts are standardized so any ATX psu will do .
Having the 980's performance now might mean you can delay adding the second graphics card , and when you do it will be another 980 .
SSD size , well bigger is better , but if it meant moving up in graphics performance I would compromise . You can install programs on the hard drive too so its not huge limitation to have 120 gig .
And definitely a dual channel RAM kit .
Use the pcpartpicker site to rework your AMD build . You can set it to filter only Newegg prices , but you may save a lot if its from multiple retailers
You do not need a rosewill psu just because you use a Rosewill case . The mounts are standardized so any ATX psu will do .
Having the 980's performance now might mean you can delay adding the second graphics card , and when you do it will be another 980 .
SSD size , well bigger is better , but if it meant moving up in graphics performance I would compromise . You can install programs on the hard drive too so its not huge limitation to have 120 gig .
And definitely a dual channel RAM kit .
Use the pcpartpicker site to rework your AMD build . You can set it to filter only Newegg prices , but you may save a lot if its from multiple retailers
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Reply to Outlander_04
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 12:59:14 PM
Outlander_04 said:
If you intend streaming then the 8 core AMD will have the edge on the intel . The extra cores start to count in multitasking scenarios , and yours is one where the AMD will shine compared to the intel .You do not need a rosewill psu just because you use a Rosewill case . The mounts are standardized so any ATX psu will do .
Having the 980's performance now might mean you can delay adding the second graphics card , and when you do it will be another 980 .
SSD size , well bigger is better , but if it meant moving up in graphics performance I would compromise . You can install programs on the hard drive too so its not huge limitation to have 120 gig .
And definitely a dual channel RAM kit .
Use the pcpartpicker site to rework your AMD build . You can set it to filter only Newegg prices , but you may save a lot if its from multiple retailers
ok i will make a new post in a bit with the revisions!!!! also i did pick the power supply becasue is a rainbow
and will be perfect with all the leds (the one on the gpu and the water cooler) -
Reply to shotgunrumble
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 1:00:03 PM
Rapajez said:
Not counting peripherals, this is what I'd build. You can jump up to 850W PSU, if you think you'll SLI, but even a 750 should handle 2 970's.
Also, your original build had 1 stick of RAM. You want a dual-channel kit (2x4) to take advantage of dual-channel technology (double the bandwidth? ish?).
Case is subjective. Corsair Carbide series, NXZT Phantom are other good choices.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($336.93 @ OutletPC)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 65.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($74.98 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD3H ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($135.99 @ NCIX US)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($94.99 @ Adorama)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($129.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($53.98 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 980 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card ($569.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 w/Window (Black Pearl) ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.25 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX ProSeries 750W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($13.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($89.98 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1680.06
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-08 15:44 EDT-0400
wanted to personnaly thank you also man! keep an eye out in the next 30 mins and i will have the revised build posted
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Reply to shotgunrumble
Agreed on most points, but a FX-8350 isn't exactly an 8-core chip, anymore than the i7 with 8 "simulated" cores is an 8 core-chip.
From here: http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1798367/true-amd...
Both floating point units will combine to one 256 bit one if heavy single performance is asked.
So yeah, the fx series have 8 cores that are basically the equivalent to 4 intel cores maximum performance wise. Intels hyperthreading is nothing but increasing efficiency and workload on cores.
And amd 'core' is NOT an intel 'core'.
About the amd vs intel debate ongoing:
One module roughly equals one intel core.
Amds bulldozer cores have horrible ips and efficiency values though. Afterall, a 3.5ghz I7 is likely to beat a 4.5ghz 8350.
From here: http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1798367/true-amd...
Quote:
As far as I know the fx 8xxx series has 4 modules, each of which containing two 128 bit fpu's of which each has 2 integer units which have 2 alus.Both floating point units will combine to one 256 bit one if heavy single performance is asked.
So yeah, the fx series have 8 cores that are basically the equivalent to 4 intel cores maximum performance wise. Intels hyperthreading is nothing but increasing efficiency and workload on cores.
And amd 'core' is NOT an intel 'core'.
About the amd vs intel debate ongoing:
One module roughly equals one intel core.
Amds bulldozer cores have horrible ips and efficiency values though. Afterall, a 3.5ghz I7 is likely to beat a 4.5ghz 8350.
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Reply to Rapajez
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 1:14:56 PM
Actually, I remember seeing that too. No idea. I wouldn't choose a mobo based on the led io panels though. How often are you looking at the back of your case?
I think the Intel build would outperform the AMD one in most games, and still keep up with the streaming. Plus it has room for even more overclocking with the Noctua cooler.
I think the Intel build would outperform the AMD one in most games, and still keep up with the streaming. Plus it has room for even more overclocking with the Noctua cooler.
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Reply to Rapajez
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 1:35:11 PM
Rapajez said:
Actually, I remember seeing that too. No idea. I wouldn't choose a mobo based on the led io panels though. How often are you looking at the back of your case?
I think the Intel build would outperform the AMD one in most games, and still keep up with the streaming. Plus it has room for even more overclocking with the Noctua cooler.
but i wanna be an amd fanboy XD
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Reply to shotgunrumble
Regardless of the differences in architecture between AMD and intel , the AMD is the only choice that can run 8 threads in discrete hardware .
When you are multitasking like gaming and streaming that makes a real difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8Sekdb-IE
When you factor in the extra cost of the intel this is a clear win for AMD
When you are multitasking like gaming and streaming that makes a real difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8Sekdb-IE
When you factor in the extra cost of the intel this is a clear win for AMD
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Reply to Outlander_04
TomThePotato said:
An intel build will have a better upgrade path though. Maybe , also maybe not
You would have two more years of socket 1150 , but performance is not expected to increase a great deal . Only power efficiency as the process node shifts to 16 nm .
So the best case scenario for intel is not much of a performance increase , just the same as no one needs an upgrade from a 3570k to a 4670 . Pointless , not an upgrade at all
On the AMD side we have new performance chips coming in about 18 months . Zen .
No doubt Zen which is an entirely new architecture will be built from the ground up to run DDR4 . BUT if its like the other AMD transitions the chips may also feature a DDR3 memory controller so they can be backwards compatible with AM3+ boards . They did this every other time so its reasonable to expect it will happen that way in the future even if it is not guaranteed .
Zen is going to be built using 16nm finfets at TSMC
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Reply to Outlander_04
shotgunrumble
October 8, 2014 6:15:45 PM
Outlander_04 said:
TomThePotato said:
An intel build will have a better upgrade path though. Maybe , also maybe not
You would have two more years of socket 1150 , but performance is not expected to increase a great deal . Only power efficiency as the process node shifts to 16 nm .
So the best case scenario for intel is not much of a performance increase , just the same as no one needs an upgrade from a 3570k to a 4670 . Pointless , not an upgrade at all
On the AMD side we have new performance chips coming in about 18 months . Zen .
No doubt Zen which is an entirely new architecture will be built from the ground up to run DDR4 . BUT if its like the other AMD transitions the chips may also feature a DDR3 memory controller so they can be backwards compatible with AM3+ boards . They did this every other time so its reasonable to expect it will happen that way in the future even if it is not guaranteed .
Zen is going to be built using 16nm finfets at TSMC
that seems pretty good for me, im honestly gonna ride this system a good 2 years with a few upgrades
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Reply to shotgunrumble
Outlander_04 said:
Regardless of the differences in architecture between AMD and intel , the AMD is the only choice that can run 8 threads in discrete hardware .When you are multitasking like gaming and streaming that makes a real difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8Sekdb-IE
When you factor in the extra cost of the intel this is a clear win for AMD
I wouldn't call it a clear win. Especially since that YouTube video is comparing the FX-8350 to a i7-3770, and we're talking about a i7-4790. That's 3.4Ghz vs 4.0, and a 10-20% slower Ivy-Bridge vs a current Devil's Canyon Haswell.
I think this more current anandtech suite of benchmarks would be a better comparison: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1260?vs=697 . (Keep in mind, lower is better in some of those.)
I will concede that when you factor in price, the performance may not be as impressive. A big part of the decision involves which games you're playing. Certain games (looking a WoW) run much better on Intel cores, other run better on AMD.
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Reply to Rapajez
Definitely some games run better on the intels . Not because the intels are better though . Its because the game engines are old and do not multi thread well
and since the monitor is 60 Hz , it can only ever display a total of 60 fps [ no matter what a benchmark says ] so an intel making 100 fps in an older game doesnt actually appear any better than an AMD running at 80 fps .
In both cases you get 60 fps on the screen .
The intels advantage in those older games is no advantage at all
and since the monitor is 60 Hz , it can only ever display a total of 60 fps [ no matter what a benchmark says ] so an intel making 100 fps in an older game doesnt actually appear any better than an AMD running at 80 fps .
In both cases you get 60 fps on the screen .
The intels advantage in those older games is no advantage at all
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Reply to Outlander_04
shotgunrumble
October 9, 2014 2:15:22 PM
i actually decided to go with a rosewill throne white case, and the monitor is going to be this one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
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Reply to shotgunrumble
Rapajez said:
Agreed, but those older gaming scores were only part of that that benchmark link. It also included heavily-threaded encoding/decoding tests, audio, etc...which is what a streaming build should be concerned with. In some cases, the i7 had double the performance.
depends on the software but an FX 8350 is more than competitive with an i7 in encoding . If you factor in the difference in cost the FX 8350 wins hands down
and in streaming Ive already demonstrated the i7 has no advantage .
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Reply to Outlander_04
shotgunrumble
October 9, 2014 6:50:13 PM
Outlander_04 said:
Rapajez said:
Agreed, but those older gaming scores were only part of that that benchmark link. It also included heavily-threaded encoding/decoding tests, audio, etc...which is what a streaming build should be concerned with. In some cases, the i7 had double the performance.
depends on the software but an FX 8350 is more than competitive with an i7 in encoding . If you factor in the difference in cost the FX 8350 wins hands down
and in streaming Ive already demonstrated the i7 has no advantage .
ok cool, i really wanted to use this because it preforms very well with multiple tasks such as streaming and gaming on ulta, hell i bet i could stream and render at the same time haha. I used pc part picker to get everything tuned in, went with a samsung evo like you said for speed, and went down to an 800 watt psu
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Reply to shotgunrumble
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