APU versus Athlon X4 + modest graphics card

[GabeBB]

Hi all, I'm looking for suggestions on building a gaming PC. My requirements are fairly low but at the same time I do want a system that can handle future upgrades. I'm not computer literate, more like a person my parents' age lol

I'm building the PC for my children to play in and they don't require a powerhouse computer yet, so my plan is to buy something 'acceptable' with the possibility of future upgrades.

For example, they're now playing on my 7 year old Athlon X2 computer, so I'm thinking the newer Athlon X4 for their new one and 8 GB of RAM (will later upgrade to 16 or even 32 as they start playing more demanding games)

My biggest conundrum right now would be with the CPU. I'm almost sold on the A10 7870k (or A10 7890k) which many people said is more than adequate for casual gameplaying. They also said it can later be paired with a stand alone graphics card should the need arise.

Some people argued that it was better to just get the AMD Athlon X4 plus a nice graphics card. I see where they're coming from, but I'm not willing to spend >$200 on a graphics card at this moment in time (I might in a year or two) and from what I read, the kind of cards one can get for $70 will usually be inferior to the integrated one that comes with the APU. Do you guys agree with that? That's why right now I'm leaning APU.

Any thoughts and suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Math Geek]

for a low budget system the a10 would be a great choice. but that's for low budget. if you have a decent budget an i3 with a cheap gpu would be better performing and allow for newer tech (such as ddr4) and an upgrade path beyond the gpu. you'd be in line for an i5/7 later on and any gpu you wished to put in it.

something like this would have them set for a long time with casual gaming. of course the gpu can be cheaper giving up performance. can easily drop it to a10 levels which is an r7-250 and run about $70-80

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i3-6100 3.7GHz Dual-Core Processor ($110.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Asus H110M-A Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($57.88 @ OutletPC)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($34.88 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: XFX Radeon R7 370 4GB Double Dissipation Video Card ($119.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $323.74
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2016-07-14 17:24 EDT-0400

 

[GabeBB]

Thanks so much for the advice MathGeek

I will definitely consider the intel setup, I'm surprised at the cost of the parts you mentioned. It's so much cheaper than I expected! I thought I was looking at 600+ for those parts, that's why I had kind of written intel off. But it's definitely tempting if it will open the door to better upgrades.

 

[Math Geek]

yah the upgrade ability is where the apu leaves a lot to be desired. there is nowhere to go from them. even the new apu's coming out will be on a new platform so they won't be an option without a new mobo again and new ram since apu's right now use ddr3 and the new ones will be ddr4.

if you got the budget, then an i3 is a much better way to go

you could round out the build above with a case, psu, hdd and windows for another $250 easy. (windows is still $100 unless you have a key you can reuse so sadly it raises the cost as much as the cpu). feel free to ask more questions if you have them. can play the what if game if you need to and compare prices on other options. an a10 build is cheaper by a good bit but is just old tech sadly.

 

[GabeBB]

Hi again! Yeah I had read about the DDR3 vs DDR4 and didn't think much of it but you're right, if the new APUs aren't compatible with the same parts can become a problem.

Oh goodness, windows is not cheap haha. I came across this one business who's offering to put together a custom computer with the skylake chip and either windows (probably for 100+ more) or Ubuntu for free. I wonder if that would be a good option? I'm kind of tempted to try it, maybe because I'm cheap, but I did hear that many people prefer to windows xD I read a little bit about it and it doesn't look that complicated to use from the screenshots. Would it be very difficult to use?

I'm not in a hurry to get it really, just finding out what I can so I can hopefully buy everything by the holidays

 

[Math Geek]

unbuntu is fine and rather easy to use with a windows like interface. but a lot of the AAA games are not on linux. so that is a trade off.

if you got time to wait, then keep saving and revisit this build when you have a better budget and the holiday sales start to hit. can save some decent cash with holiday sales. plus you'll have more cash to work with giving you better options.

 

[GabeBB]

Wow that is a bummer, I didn't consider that some games might not be compatible with Ubuntu. I guess that makes sense, if they didn't do that people would probably just stop buying Windows.

Yeah I could definitely do my shopping on black Friday. I just want to become familiar with the computer parts so I don't buy complete crap haha. I was wondering what your opinion is on SSD drives. I read that some people like to have one besides their hard disks. Do they help gaming performance? I might just get a small one if I can find it for under $100.

 

[Obakasama]

As I understand it, an SSD really only helps load times in games but don't help with performance as such. If you're thinking something like fps, then I believe the answer is no.

Personally I use an SSD for Windows and other programs which benefit from a quick boot up, and a separate HDD for games. An SSD for Windows can certainly make your PC feel a lot quicker.

And as Math Geek has pointed out, current APUs and its platform are at the end of its life cycle with no upgrade path.

 

[Math Geek]

right an ssd will drop load times and boot up but does little for game performance. they are nice and fast and those tiny M.2 drives look neat on the mobo but they don't really do much for fps. the game gets loaded into ram and runs from there (ssd just gets it into ram faster, hence lower load times) which is already a lot faster than any hdd and will always be a lot faster

 

[Ecky]

Your best option may be to go with a used or refurbished PC that already has a Windows license attached to it. Any Core i3 would be a better choice than an AMD APU, and used i3 machines are abundant on eBay.

 

[magneezo]

You could consider an Athlon IIx4 605e or better, possibly a Phenom 9xx. Pair that with a Radeon r9 card.
I did that in 2013. Ordered an Athlon IIX4 605e (tdp can't be over 95w on my board is the reason for 'e')
to replace a stock Athlon IIx2 235e.
That in itself worked wonders. I also upgraded an aging gts 250 with a Radeon R9 270x. Not expecting much I was blown away by the improvement. Running a game like GTA IV was not possible before the changes, but after the switch it runs like butter.
I got the Athlon 605e from Ebay for around $70 in 2013.
You can buy a Radeon r7 370 at BB for $109
(that card is ID as R9 270x during bench on my new rig)
This would give you quite a boost on your current rig for around $200
I do have an A 10 5700 in a 3 year old Gateway. That A 10 and the X4 dont seem too far apart performancewise,
And the X4 was a direct drop in replacement for the X2

 

[GabeBB]

Thank you all! I guess then getting a SSD drive is not really worth it for me considering they're a bit more costly than HDDs.

Hi Magneezo! It might be a good idea to upgrade my current PC. I quite like it, it's a nice little Acer desktop with Windows 7. I recently got rid of a bunch of malware and it's running pretty well. The only problem is the motherboard won't accept over 4 GB of RAM so I would also need to buy a new one and possibly a new carcass too because this is one tiny PC. It's the EL1352.

http://www.game-debate.com/motherboard/index.php?mot_id=3589&motherboard=eMachines%20EL1352-07E%20Mainboard

I think I will follow MathGeek's advice and get a MB that accepts DDR4 though so I can get the latest RAM from here on out. I do like AMD though and wouldn't mind an AMD processor if they end up launching the next generation of APU's sometime soon. Anybody know when that will be?

Is Zen supposed to be the next APU or is that a higher end processor they're launching?

 

[Obakasama]

Entire platform the way I read it: the new AM4. It's generally why the advice is to hold off buying any AM3+ or FM2+ based CPUs because both are essentially redundant. Supposedly a 2016 release, though I saw a mention of 2017.

I'd be wary of 'upgrading' your Acer's motherboard though. Typically with prebuilt PCs, the OS is locked to the motherboard. You can change any other component without issue, but changing the motherboard usually means you lose Windows and having to buy a new one. (Happened to me before because I didn't know.) And if you have a decent enough CPU on the Acer, a GPU upgrade can do wonders (might also need a new PSU).

 

[Ecky]

AMD's current line of APUs have about the same performance per clock as Intel's Core2Quad CPUs, which came out in 2007. They're clocked higher, of course, which helps, but they're most definitely low-end. AMD's AM4 platform was supposed to launch right about now, with the same chips on it as were on FM2+ only with DDR4 memory, but it was scrapped for whatever reason. Zen is looking to be a 2017 product, and will first be released only in 8 core / 16 thread variants (so likely very large and expensive) with no iGPU, and performance per clock is estimated right now to be somewhere between Intel's ~2011 and ~2013 CPUs. Zen APUs will follow later.

 

[GabeBB]

Hi Obakasama! Yeah that's why I decided against the A10 7870k even though it's so affordable. I do want a platform that I can keep upgrading. My preference right now would be to skip the GPU altogether so I can get a mid to high tier one later on. That's why I was attracted to the APU having decent integrated graphics.

I didn't know the OS might be attached to the motherboard, thanks for the heads up I'll probably leave the Acer alone for now (unless something breaks) and focus on building the gaming PC.

Hi Ecky! I heard that Intel makes better performing CPU's than AMD but I didn't think it was so large a gap, that's def a little concerning. I'm mainly attracted to the APUs because I'm hoping to skip a GPU altogether on my build, and then save for a decent GPU in a year or two. Can the GPU be skipped and still allow for light gaming if I buy the I3 6100?

My ideal would be to skip the GPU and invest on a fairly large motherboard because I plan to keep evolving the PC over some period of time. For example, I'm getting 8GB of RAM initially but when I'm done upgrading it in two or three years it might have 32, a GPU, maybe a SSD, etc.

 

[Ecky]

The i3 6100's integrated GPU is actually almost as fast as what AMD offers with their top-end APUs, because it's been so long since AMD innovated. Basically anything a 7870K can play on its integrated GPU, an i3 6100 can play, probably a hair slower in many cases.

Fun bit: Intel actually sells the fastest iGPU on the market. The i7 5775c's iGPU is king of the hill there, though still very low-end when compared with discrete GPUs:

^ The i3 6100 has the same integrated GPU as the i7 6700K, so you can see the rough relative performance of it against AMD's APUs.

 

[Ecky]

My opinion on motherboards: There's rarely much point in spending much more than the minimum necessary on a board. Even the least expensive H170 and Z170 boards have multiple PCIe 16x slots, M.2 slots, 4 RAM slots, etc., the only thing more expensive boards offer are proprietary replacements to things cheaper boards also have - e.g. Asus often replaces the ALC1150 audio codec with their own proprietary onboard audio, and Gigabyte replaces Intel's onboard LAN with their (arguably inferior) Killer NIC.

Go for an H170 (if you don't want to overclock) or Z170 (if you do) based motherboard in the $80-120 range.

 

[GabeBB]

Hi Ecky, thanks for the advice The i3's graphics look pretty decent and I will probably be getting a GPU once my kids start playing more complicated games. I might just go with the setup MathGeek suggested and add a hybrid drive.

Should I grab an ATX motherboard or will microATX do even with the upgrades I'm planning? I'm also unsure whether I need SATA Express. I probably will not overclock as I'm not sure what that even means I do have some idea that it involves getting the CPU to run faster than it normally would but I wouldn't know how to do that so I'll probably just steer clear and my kids are too young to haha

 

[Ecky]

You'll want an H170 motherboard then, and mATX is fine. SATA express is likely unnecessary.

 

[Math Geek]

micro atx is smaller so it gives up some extras found on bigger boards. but these are likely extras you won't use like a second (or third) pcie slot for multiple gpu's. might lose a couple ram slots but 2 is plenty enough. overall for a non super system, a micro atx is plenty of motherboard for a system. i mainly chose it for the price. losing size and some extras lowers costs. so a micro atx board can save a good $20 or more over a full size atx board that will do the same thing you need it to do

i bought a sata express board a long time ago when it was still new tech. paid a pretty penny to get that extra. that was in about 2006/7 i think it was. never used the slot and have not used it yet on any new builds. other than some external hdd's. few things use it. i think the idea of it is a good one but it is very unused even when it could be.