Replacing 5+ year-old machines - Where do I start?

[jb1311]

I'm looking to replace both my 7-year-old desktop and my 5-year-old laptop, and I was hoping to pick your collective brains. I have three usage scenarios that I'd like to cover with 2 computers:

1. Work laptop - I'm an attorney, so my tech needs aren't particularly demanding. It needs to be portable enough that it's not too much of a pain to commute with on a daily basis, but it doesn't need to be ultra-thin or ultra-light. It also needs to look respectable enough that I can pull it out in front of a client without feeling unprofessional. (Unlike my current laptop, which is quite literally falling apart.) I prefer a 15" screen, and I definitely want a numeric keypad.

2. Personal laptop - 90% of the time, I'll be using it for email, surfing the web, watching movies, and video chatting. Occasionally, though, I like to be able to game on my laptop when I'm traveling. See #3 for my typical game selection. I don't need the games to be super smooth, as this won't be my primary gaming machine, but they need to be playable at reasonable graphics settings, preferably at native resolution. My current laptop has a rather kludgey manual switch to turn on and off the discrete graphics, which I'd like to avoid in a new machine. I've gotten used to a 1080p screen and would prefer not to downgrade. I also like my backlit keyboard.

3. Desktop - This will primarily be a gaming machine, but I'll also use it for watching movies and other random (and not particularly taxing) stuff. Most frequently, I play Lord of the Rings Online, which my current machine frequently struggles with. Most of my other games are also a few years old: the Mass Effect trilogy, Civilization V, Dragon Age Origins, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc. There are two new games I'd like to be able to play, as well: Mass Effect Andromeda and Civilization VI. I'd like to be able to do >60fps at 1080p in each of these games at fairly high settings.

I don’t have a specific budget because I have no idea what it would cost today to do what I need. Essentially it’ll boil down to the fact that the more I need to spend, the longer it’ll take me to set aside the money. I’m hoping to get a laptop this spring and a desktop this summer. I’m not looking for bleeding edge technology, but I am looking for something that’ll last a few years, even if I need to upgrade a few parts from time to time. For the desktop, while I’d really enjoy building it myself, I’m open to buying a prebuilt machine if it’s a significantly better fit for my needs. The biggest curveball is that I’m trying to stick with Windows 7.

I do realize that it’s unlikely I’m going to be able to get everything I want. That said, here are my main questions for the crowd:
1. How much should I plan on budgeting for each of the machines? If it matters, I’m in Chicago.
2. How feasible is Windows 7 for new computers in 2017?
3. Is there any compelling reason why I should lean toward a homebuilt or a prebuilt desktop?
4. I’ll gratefully accept advice on where to start when deciding on specs. Most of the sticky threads seem to be dated.

If it matters, here's the basics of what I'm upgrading from:

Desktop (homebuilt in March 2010)
Processor: AMD Phenom II x4 945
Motherboard: Asus M4A79XTD EVO
RAM: 2x Crucial 2GB DDR3 1333
Video Card: XFX Radeon HD 5770 1GB

Laptop (Sony VAIO VPCSE25FX/S - bought in June 2012)
Processor: Intel Core i5-2450M
RAM: 6GB DDR3 1333
Video Card: AMD Radeon HD 6630M 1GB

Thanks a bunch!

-Joe

 

[helpstar]

Laptop beginning at 500$, Windows 10 will be sold with them, windows 7 will most likely not run that easily
Desktop beginning at 700, depending which components you can reuse, optical drive, HDD, windows 7 can be used, but I wouldn´t recommend for a system like this (M.2 SSD + Kaby Lake CPU + USB 3 implementation to install windows). It´s possible to install win7, but it´s not that easy.
e.g. https://pcpartpicker.com/list/twgmRG

Homebuilt: better quality components you can chose of,
prebuilt: more expensive, at the same quality

 

[FD2Raptor]

I'm looking to replace both my 7-year-old desktop and my 5-year-old laptop, and I was hoping to pick your collective brains. I have three usage scenarios that I'd like to cover with 2 computers:

...

3. Desktop - This will primarily be a gaming machine, but I'll also use it for watching movies and other random (and not particularly taxing) stuff. Most frequently, I play Lord of the Rings Online, which my current machine frequently struggles with. Most of my other games are also a few years old: the Mass Effect trilogy, Civilization V, Dragon Age Origins, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc. There are two new games I'd like to be able to play, as well: Mass Effect Andromeda and Civilization VI. I'd like to be able to do >60fps at 1080p in each of these games at fairly high settings.

I don’t have a specific budget because I have no idea what it would cost today to do what I need. Essentially it’ll boil down to the fact that the more I need to spend, the longer it’ll take me to set aside the money. I’m hoping to get a laptop this spring and a desktop this summer. I’m not looking for bleeding edge technology, but I am looking for something that’ll last a few years, even if I need to upgrade a few parts from time to time. For the desktop, while I’d really enjoy building it myself, I’m open to buying a prebuilt machine if it’s a significantly better fit for my needs. The biggest curveball is that I’m trying to stick with Windows 7.

I do realize that it’s unlikely I’m going to be able to get everything I want. That said, here are my main questions for the crowd:
1. How much should I plan on budgeting for each of the machines? If it matters, I’m in Chicago.
2. How feasible is Windows 7 for new computers in 2017?
3. Is there any compelling reason why I should lean toward a homebuilt or a prebuilt desktop?
4. I’ll gratefully accept advice on where to start when deciding on specs. Most of the sticky threads seem to be dated.

If it matters, here's the basics of what I'm upgrading from:

Desktop (homebuilt in March 2010)
Processor: AMD Phenom II x4 945
Motherboard: Asus M4A79XTD EVO
RAM: 2x Crucial 2GB DDR3 1333
Video Card: XFX Radeon HD 5770 1GB

Laptop (Sony VAIO VPCSE25FX/S - bought in June 2012)
Processor: Intel Core i5-2450M
RAM: 6GB DDR3 1333
Video Card: AMD Radeon HD 6630M 1GB

Thanks a bunch!

-Joe

For the desktop:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-6500 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($189.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: ASRock Z170 Pro4 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($95.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team Delta 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($99.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: PNY CS1311 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($74.99 @ Best Buy)
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 1060 3GB 3GB GAMING X 3G Video Card ($208.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Inwin 703 BLACK ATX Mid Tower Case ($40.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: SeaSonic S12II 620W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($47.89 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 OEM 64-bit ($99.99 @ My Choice Software)
Total: $858.79
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-02-21 03:50 EST-0500

Skylake CPU + 100 Series Motherboards are the last guaranteed support to work with Windows 7 (until its extended support deadline ~2020). Intel Kabylake, AMD Ryzen are all officially supported on W10 only.

Why did I recommend Z170? Because Z270+Kabylake is already here on the same socket. Unlike the bottom end, the H110 chipset, that would have to work with both Kabylake and Skylake, the B150/H170/Z170 are all superseded by their 200 series equivalent. So picking a Z170 MB now will allow you more options when the time come for upgrades. Alternatively, you can go for the i5 6600k along with the cooler Cryorig H7, which would enable the ability to overclock and guarantee you not needing to upgrade the CPU for quite a while.

16GB of DDR4 2400 is plenty for any game or multitasking need; and the fact that prices of RAM and SSD are still predicted to continue rising at least till the end of the year (4-5 months ago, a 16GB kit were just ~$60).

There are cheaper SSD than the PNY CS1311, but do watch out as some of them are DRAMless SSD and therefore would have even lower expected lifespan.

The Seasonic S12II is being priced down a lot in anticipation that Seasonic (one of the most trusted PSU manufacturers) will revamp their entire product line; the S12II line is to be replaced by their newer Focus line. It's still a very good piece of hardware which, at 620W capacity, will support any types of upgrades you may carry out over the lifetime of the build.

The new $99 digital windows 7 license can be excluded if your current W7 license is a Retail, not an OEM one. You can then use the ~1MB Universal-USB-Installer tool and a USB drive with ~8GB space to create your own USB Windows installation and do away with the DVD drive.

 

[jb1311]

Thanks for the replies! I'm not quite ready to build yet, so I'm sure the parts lists will change between now and the summer, but they'll definitely give me a place to start, including a ballpark figure for the budget. After looking over your responses, I do have some additional questions.

FD2Raptor, I noticed that you recommended a GeForce graphics card with a motherboard that supports CrossFire but not SLI. While I seriously doubt I'd ever use either technology, is there any side benefit in using a GeForce card on an SLI-supporting motherboard?

I'm definitely planning on reusing my hard drives and optical drive. I think I can transfer my Windows 7 license, too, since it's an academic license rather than an OEM one. What about my case (Thermaltake Tsunami) and power supply (Cooler Master Silent Pro M600)? Is there any particular reason not to reuse them? (While my current case is annoying in some respects, and I wouldn't mind an excuse to replace it, it seems silly to spend money to replace it if there's nothing actually wrong with it.)

Finally, while this seems to be a great place to discuss home builds, after looking around, it doesn't seem like the best place for advice on laptops. Do you have any suggestions on where to go for laptop advice?

Thanks again!

-Joe

 

[helpstar]

SLI ready motherboard: these boards are just providing at least two PCIe slots at x8 speed, if two expansion cards are installed and crossfire mostly x16 / x4, which is not supported by geforce (nvidia) to run SLI.
So if you won´t install a second PCIe card, there is no benefit at all. E.g. a PCIe x8 storage controller could be another thing some consider before buying a motherboard, but that´s very uncommon and I don´t think you want that in the future too.

Reusing Windows 7 is another thing. It´s possible to install 7 on a kaby lake system, but the CPU won´t benefit that much from it and it´s a bit more complicated to install it other than windows 10.

If the optical drive and hard drives are SATA and not IDE, that´s fin to use them, but if not, you would need a contoller card or new sata drives.
Using your case and power supply is an absolutley fine thing to go. The case has an outdated design, newer cases offer the installation of the PSU at the bottom of the case, but in your case, it´s installed at the top. Just to mention it, this will affect a tiny bit the temperature inside the case, but nothing to worry about.
Other than that it doesn´t offer USB3.0 in the frontpanel.

You will have to look at your future graphics card, because of your case, it must not exceed the length of it and if you want a 3rd party CPU cooler, it must not exceed the height of it.


Q: What is the longest graphics card that may be used with this chassis?
A: 12.29" is the length of the longest card on the market. This chassis will fit this size of card with the removal of the HDD cage. Standard size fit for the chassis 9.6".

Q: What is the tallest cooler that will fit this chassis?
A: This chassis will fit a cooler that is no taller than 165mm(6.5")

Open a new thread in the laptop´s section of this forum:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/forum-110.html

 

[FD2Raptor]

I'm not quite ready to build yet, so I'm sure the parts lists will change between now and the summer, but they'll definitely give me a place to start, including a ballpark figure for the budget.

So long that you remember that the Skylake CPU (6000 series) and 100 Series motherboard is the last generation that is guaranteed to be supported for W7. Kabylake CPU (7000 series) and/or 200 Series motherboard is not officially supported on W7 which mean if they release a patch or something that cause the Kabylake system to become unbootable on W7, you'd be on your own. 200 Series motherboard still use the same socket LGA1151 as the 100 Series MB, so you do have the option to update the 100 Series MB's BIOS to support Kabylake (available now) or Cannonlake (if/when they become available) CPU in the future.

FD2Raptor, I noticed that you recommended a GeForce graphics card with a motherboard that supports CrossFire but not SLI. While I seriously doubt I'd ever use either technology, is there any side benefit in using a GeForce card on an SLI-supporting motherboard?

There's zero benefits to using a single Geforce card on a SLI-ready MB over one that isn't; and in this generation, you'd need a GTX 1070 (~$400) or higher to be able to SLI.

As for Crossfiring AMD cards on those that do not support SLI (requiring minimum of 8x/8x lanes split for Z170, Z270 or X99)?

It's not optimal for that either. The main PCIe x16 slot used for the first graphic card would utilize the 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes from the CPU while the second one would have go the roundabout route, through the 4 PCIe 3.0 lanes from the chipset and then fighting with almost every other components in/connected to your PC for the limited DMI bandwidth to the CPU. It'd cause a performance deficit compare to the Z170/Z270 boards that support the ability to split the 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes from the CPU to two of the PCIe x16 slots (or any X99 MB).

Toms did a test some time ago and found that running CF on x16/x4 config result in ~27% less performance compare to CF on 8x/8x. And since in a different test showing modern graphic card do not manage to saturate 8 lanes of PCIe 3.0, there's probably little performance benefits to be have on X99: 16x/16x SLI/CF config with an expensive CPU with 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes. With best case scenario for CF/SLI two cards yielding ~70% performance gains over a single card, it's just too much hassle (and costly) for limited gains to try CF-ing on these 16x/4x MB. MB manufacturers can claim that it is supported, AMD didn't prohibit it, however, they also certainly didn't say that you'd get the most optimal performance with that configuration either.

What about my case (Thermaltake Tsunami) and power supply (Cooler Master Silent Pro M600)? Is there any particular reason not to reuse them? (While my current case is annoying in some respects, and I wouldn't mind an excuse to replace it, it seems silly to spend money to replace it if there's nothing actually wrong with it.)

USB 3.0 on the front panel? If you want, you can get something that can really draw attention, like the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Acrylic. And to avoid the possibility of not having enough room for the graphic card (MSI Gaming X is 10.91" ~~277mm; its large heatsink allow it to be the best at balancing cooling power and noise)?

Better airflow?
For the In Win 703, default 1x120mm front intake+1x back exhaust, with the option to add 2 more 120mm intakes.
For the ProM Acrylic, 1x140mm intake + 1x 140mm exhaust, optional to add 1x140mm intake or swap it all out for 3x120mm intake.

This design allow them to function with positive air pressure i.e. there'll be air flowing out of every other holes and crevices and therefore limiting dust from getting into the case (when the system is on, and the fans are operational, of course).

The bottom mount position would allow the PSU fan to just be left to cool the PSU's own innards instead of having to function as another exhaust fan, drawing hot air inside the case into itself (potentially further lowering its lifespan if you decide to continue using the CM)?


The Cooler Master PSU... I can't say that I have complete confidence in that one... It has an ancient design and its 12V rail is only 40A ~ 480W rather than its label rating 600W (for example: the newer than that CM but still relatively old SS S12II 620W has 48A~576W; the recent refresh of Corsair CX line has the CXM550 unit with 45.8A ~549.6W; both are capable of deliver 90-100% their rated power on the 12V rail which is the most important one for a modern machine as the CPU and GPU mainly draws power from that rail).

Together with the fact that it has aged and therefore it is unlikely for it to still be able to deliver power as well as when it was new; this makes me inclined to prefer having it replaced, although it will probably be serviceable enough for a i5 6500+GTX1060 config. Any upgrade to overclockable CPU or a graphic card with higher power draw and a replacement would be highly recommended.