Case designers still stuck in the past?

[danielthegreate]

I was helping my friend put together a budget gaming/study PC last week, and I noticed something strange. I could not find any budget case without a 5.25 drive cage here in Australia.
My optical drive has been collecting dust since 2013. Its install base has been rapidly dropping globally since 2013 as well. The rise of cheap flash drives and the downloadables have made the optical drive pretty much irrelevant in most cases.

What puzzles me is that why the majority of available cases that don't waste space and aesthetics on an optical drive cage and cutout are on high price range. Almost all of the lower range budget cases pack a cage for two or more optical drives and ugly cutouts in front, while it makes more sense to remove this first from the budget range, as it adds an extra cost in production to the case.

Do you think they should keep the relatively large 5.25 drive case in the cases, or is it time to get rid of it? What other feature in cases can you think of that is stuck in the past?

 

[n0ns3ns3]

the answer is in the description - budget.
those cases do not get attention and just reusing assembly lines from previous years. Also, they are popular in developing markets where "old" tech is still popular. even things like PCI cards, COMM and Parallel ports.

 

[cryoburner]

5.25" drive cages can also be used for more than just optical drives though, like card readers, fan controllers, additional USB ports and hot-swappable drive bays. A large number of people still want an optical drive in their desktop computer too, since most have a collection of discs laying around, even if most things they need are readily available online these days. Most ATX cases are large enough to fit one or more 5.25" cages at minimal cost to the manufacturer, so it's a reasonable feature to include for those that need them.

One thought on the pricing would be that for the most part, only some newer case designs that are trying to make the case look "nicer" or be more compact would leave an optical drive bay out, so they treat that new design as a "feature" and charge more accordingly.

 

[danielthegreate]

5.25" drive cages can also be used for more than just optical drives though, like card readers, fan controllers, additional USB ports and hot-swappable drive bays. A large number of people still want an optical drive in their desktop computer too, since most have a collection of discs laying around, even if most things they need are readily available online these days. Most ATX cases are large enough to fit one or more 5.25" cages at minimal cost to the manufacturer, so it's a reasonable feature to include for those that need them.

One thought on the pricing would be that for the most part, only some newer case designs that are trying to make the case look "nicer" or be more compact would leave an optical drive bay out, so they treat that new design as a "feature" and charge more accordingly.

Statistics show that the install base of optical drives declined to 50% in 2016 compared to 2013, and the decrease is exponential, projected to decline to 30% in 2018. So there are a lot of people who don't need or want an optical drive in their computer, but there are little to no option for them in the budget case market.

Same thing happened with the 3.5" floppy drives. The case makers were too stubborn to remove them, at some point they became available as external for the minority who used them and then vanished. There were cutouts on cases years after people stopped using the floppy drives, and to no surprise, there are still cases today with floppy cutouts.
The problem is not that there are cases with large multi-bay optical cages, the problem is that there are very limited options available without it. There is only a small minority installing stuff other than a 5.25" drive in the 5.25 bay, and I don't think they would go for a budget case anyway. Sensible business sense targets the larger customer base first and then provides a few option to the minority. It is the other way around as it is.

I think probably the case maker are "playing it safe", and are afraid to take the risk. But the great sales of cases like corsair carbide clear, and air series show that there will be significant demand in the budget range as well. I also agree with n0ns3ns3 that they might be targeting the developing countries with the budget range, in some countries that are a few years behind in adapting to new tech the optical drive may still be used so much that warrants putting it in the case rather than using an external.

 

[jasonkaler]

There is other stuff that can use that bay, e.g.
http://www.dx.com/p/fpx-003-5-25-bay-multi-function-panel-fan-controller-card-reader-463585?tc=ZAR&gclid=CjwKEAjwxurIBRDnt7P7rODiq0USJADwjt5DYqjugMTe0HGgvUJ5M_d_PqL6ZFhiV5JoDNziUwG7dxoCtdfw_wcB

But yea, that size is a relic of the past that shouldn't take too long to phase out.

 

[VIVO-US]

Optical drives are still preferred in a lot of builds that will be using legacy software, or for users with large collections of disc base music, movies, and other media, so it's hard for the manufacturers (like us) to leave it out all the time. We do make a budget Micro ATX case without the optical drive bay, and as a result, the room for graphics cards and cooling is greater than any other M-ATX case for the price. However, even though we state in the specifications and clearly show it in the photos, we still get complaints all the time about it not having an optical drive bay.

Because there are still so many who do want the optical drive, we and the other manufacturers have to continue making cases with a drive bay for it. Once they've gone the way of the floppy though, you'll be seeing a lot more cases without it. Speaking of the floppy, did you know the 5.25" drive bay was based on the 5.25" floppy from 1976? That means the bay is designed to fit around tech from 40 years ago! You think maybe the standard is slightly outdated?

 

[danielthegreate]

Optical drives are still preferred in a lot of builds that will be using legacy software, or for users with large collections of disc base music, movies, and other media, so it's hard for the manufacturers (like us) to leave it out all the time. We do make a budget Micro ATX case without the optical drive bay, and as a result, the room for graphics cards and cooling is greater than any other M-ATX case for the price. However, even though we state in the specifications and clearly show it in the photos, we still get complaints all the time about it not having an optical drive bay.

Because there are still so many who do want the optical drive, we and the other manufacturers have to continue making cases with a drive bay for it. Once they've gone the way of the floppy though, you'll be seeing a lot more cases without it. Speaking of the floppy, did you know the 5.25" drive bay was based on the 5.25" floppy from 1976? That means the bay is designed to fit around tech from 40 years ago! You think maybe the standard is slightly outdated?

I don't get your point in the similarity of 5.25" drives, my point is not to complain why there exist cases with large multi 5.25 bays, I am puzzled why there is limited to none without it in the budget range. I understand that making changes in design are risky, but an easy market research can show you that there are people who would rather buy cases without the large 5.25 drive cage and cutout in the budget range as well.

"it is preferred in a lot of builds" by what percentages? When I looked at numbers the 5.25 has lost at least about 50% of its install base, so half of the people building systems would be happy to buy a case without a 5.25 cage, and there are limited models available. Again, I'm not complaining about what is available, I am curious as to why the other is not available. I think if some case designers start making cases without the large bay in the budget range, people like my friend would be happy to buy it and since the use of optical drives is on an exponential decline, the market will correct itself as people start buying the newly available models more and more.

 

[VIVO-US]

I don't get your point in the similarity of 5.25" drives, my point is not to complain why there exist cases with large multi 5.25 bays, I am puzzled why there is limited to none without it in the budget range. I understand that making changes in design are risky, but an easy market research can show you that there are people who would rather buy cases without the large 5.25 drive cage and cutout in the budget range as well.

"it is preferred in a lot of builds" by what percentages? When I looked at numbers the 5.25 has lost at least about 50% of its install base, so half of the people building systems would be happy to buy a case without a 5.25 cage, and there are limited models available. Again, I'm not complaining about what is available, I am curious as to why the other is not available. I think if some case designers start making cases without the large bay in the budget range, people like my friend would be happy to buy it and since the use of optical drives is on an exponential decline, the market with correct itself as people start buying the newly available models more and more.

I was just noting how old the 5.25" standard is.

The budget buyers seem to be the ones who go for the optical drive slot more often. A lot of our customers buy cases so they can move parts from their old pre-built systems to new cases without upgrading the actual computer, and for now at least, most of those still have optical drives.

And like I said before, we do make a budget case that doesn't have an optical bay at all, and it's become a popular option for modern budget systems. Xion also makes a couple budget micro and mid towers without 5.25" bays. So although it's true that they're not common (yet), we and a few of the others are trying to push forward with more modern designs for the budget builders.

The reason most of the cases without the bay cost more is because they're higher-end cases aimed towards more premium systems. Heavier metal, tool-less mounts, glass panels, and other features can drive the production cost up very quickly. Modern features tend to be featured in flashy high-end cases first to get everyone's attention, and trickle down to the budget cases over time if they're successful. When Antec popularized the bottom-mounted PSU bay with their 900 model case, it still took years for this to become common in budget cases.

The 5.25" bay probably wouldn't be missed for long if it was phased out of gaming cases. HTPC cases may be a different story though, especially with the new 4K Blu-Ray format, so it's fine to leave them in those for a while longer.

 

[cryoburner]

Statistics show that the install base of optical drives declined to 50% in 2016 compared to 2013, and the decrease is exponential, projected to decline to 30% in 2018. So there are a lot of people who don't need or want an optical drive in their computer, but there are little to no option for them in the budget case market.

Without a source, and further information about how that percentage is measured, the statistic doesn't mean much. Is this data limited to newly sold pre-built systems? Does the stat include laptops, or maybe other portable devices, where cutting out an optical drive can provide more significant size and weight advantages? Are these stats obtained from some PC benchmarking site used primarily by a limited demographic of users who might skew the results by being less likely than the average populace to use optical discs?

A lot of it likely comes down to the manufacturer asking themselves if they are going to lose more sales on a particular case design by leaving a feature out than they will gain by making the case slightly more compact at the expense of versatility. For a desktop computer case, being slightly more compact is not something that will be particularly important to most people. You're not likely to move a desktop computer on a regular basis, so it largely comes down to aesthetics. And if someone is especially concerned about how a case looks, then they're likely to be willing to pay a bit more for those looks. And of course, if you don't want to see drive bays, you could always just get a case with a front panel door.

Same thing happened with the 3.5" floppy drives. The case makers were too stubborn to remove them, at some point they became available as external for the minority who used them and then vanished. There were cutouts on cases years after people stopped using the floppy drives, and to no surprise, there are still cases today with floppy cutouts.

I have a multi-card reader in a 3.5" bay. They're useful for expanding functionality like that. If a new media format comes out, or if you want to add front ports for a new connection like USB Type-C, it can be done without replacing the entire case, or having an external box cluttering your desk. Upgradability and customization are arguably some of the best things desktop PCs have going for them. Just because many people don't need a floppy or optical drive these days, doesn't mean having external expansion bays on the front of their computer won't be useful to them.

 

[danielthegreate]

Without a source, and further information about how that percentage is measured, the statistic doesn't mean much.

Doesn't mean much to you, you are free to not believe it, or do a google search and find the information. Are you actually arguing that optical drives are not becoming obsolete? Corsair has been adding cases without the optical bay, do you think they would have kept adding models if they couldn't sell? If people are willing to pay for carbide clear, there sure are people willing to pay less for budget cases with similar design and features.

Either way, it doesn't make a difference, the optical drive is becoming obsolete. There will always be some for people who use them, but there is definitely a market for people who don't want them, and the later is growing.

For a desktop computer case, being slightly more compact is not something that will be particularly important to most people. You're not likely to move a desktop computer on a regular basis, so it largely comes down to aesthetics. And if someone is especially concerned about how a case looks, then they're likely to be willing to pay a bit more for those looks.

So because I don't move it why don't we put a few other empty boxes and a few other cutouts around it as well, and the customer has to pay for them too. If it is not useful to some people, they would pay for a case without it, so there is money to be made for case makers, win-win. First place that it makes sense to remove it is in the budget range, the customer can already avoid buying the drive to save, and then the case can be made cheaper without the drive cage and cutout and also shipped cheaper if it becomes smaller and lighter, it will also look cleaner without an unused cutout so it will have competitive advantages against other budget cases. There are other reasons too, but I'm sure you can think of them yourself.

And of course, if you don't want to see drive bays, you could always just get a case with a front panel door.

I am not asking for the 5.25 drive to be removed from all cases, I will just repeat one more time that I think more new models can be available without it in the budget range. So if you feel attached to the feature, there will always be an option for you to buy, why does it bother you if there are also options without it? You can just buy the case with the drive if you need it that much.

I have a multi-card reader in a 3.5" bay. They're useful for expanding functionality like that. If a new media format comes out, or if you want to add front ports for a new connection like USB Type-C, it can be done without replacing the entire case, or having an external box cluttering your desk. Upgradability and customization are arguably some of the best things desktop PCs have going for them. Just because many people don't need a floppy or optical drive these days, doesn't mean having external expansion bays on the front of their computer won't be useful to them.

Sure you can just buy the ones with optical drive and 3.5" drives, also install a floppy drive if you want. It doesn't affect the fans of 5.25" if others also have options that suit them. As they start to become available, the market will correct itself as each model will have sales proportional to the target demographic.

 

[nonsleeper]

We will always see this general resistance to change. It is called the "Mere-exposure effect".

On laptops it is already gone, it will soon go the way of CRT monitors and 3.5 floppies. I remember seeing exact same topics with people defending the floppy drive.

For a desktop computer case, being slightly more compact is not something that will be particularly important to most people. You're not likely to move a desktop computer on a regular basis, so it largely comes down to aesthetics. And if someone is especially concerned about how a case looks, then they're likely to be willing to pay a bit more for those looks. And of course, if you don't want to see drive bays, you could always just get a case with a front panel door.

This is like saying motherboards with only one PCI slot and two RAM slot shouldn't exist because you don't move them. Why should I pay for them then? Not moving the PC isn't a good argument for putting useless stuff in it, it comes down to better utilization of space and money.

If you don't want cases without the drive bays, buy the ones that have drive bays, plenty available so I'm 100% sure you will be fine.

 

[danielthegreate]

I was just noting how old the 5.25" standard is.

The budget buyers seem to be the ones who go for the optical drive slot more often. A lot of our customers buy cases so they can move parts from their old pre-built systems to new cases without upgrading the actual computer, and for now at least, most of those still have optical drives.

And like I said before, we do make a budget case that doesn't have an optical bay at all, and it's become a popular option for modern budget systems. Xion also makes a couple budget micro and mid towers without 5.25" bays. So although it's true that they're not common (yet), we and a few of the others are trying to push forward with more modern designs for the budget builders.

The reason most of the cases without the bay cost more is because they're higher-end cases aimed towards more premium systems. Heavier metal, tool-less mounts, glass panels, and other features can drive the production cost up very quickly. Modern features tend to be featured in flashy high-end cases first to get everyone's attention, and trickle down to the budget cases over time if they're successful. When Antec popularized the bottom-mounted PSU bay with their 900 model case, it still took years for this to become common in budget cases.

The 5.25" bay probably wouldn't be missed for long if it was phased out of gaming cases. HTPC cases may be a different story though, especially with the new 4K Blu-Ray format, so it's fine to leave them in those for a while longer.

I just saw the VIVO "SMART" Micro-ATX Tower Gaming Case. I had to say kudos, it looks great and has amazing airflow and water cooling support. At only 35$ it is an absolute steal.

 

[cryoburner]

Doesn't mean much to you, you are free to not believe it, or do a google search and find the information. Are you actually arguing that optical drives are not becoming obsolete? Corsair has been adding cases without the optical bay, do you think they would have kept adding models if they couldn't sell? If people are willing to pay for carbide clear, there sure are people willing to pay less for budget cases with similar design and features.

The "statistics" themselves don't mean much to anyone though, if someone is just claiming that such numbers exist somewhere, and not providing any further details. My point was that providing someone else's numbers and projections is meaningless if there's no context for who was making those claims, what exactly they might have been talking about, or what their data actually covered. Your argument would be stronger by just pointing out that the install-base of optical drives in newer systems is declining, leaving out the "statistics" part entirely. Obviously optical drives in PCs are seeing less use lately, and many people can get along fine without one, but I have strong doubts that over 50% of desktop computers in use today don't have an optical drive. Not only do the majority of pre-built Windows 10 desktop PCs available at Newegg still come with an optical drive built in, but so do a majority of the 15-17" Windows 10 laptops for sale there.

Sure, perhaps there could be a wider selection of budget cases available without drive bays, but there are some available, and if someone is especially picky about how their case looks and what sort of features it contains, they'll likely be willing to pay a bit more to get a case that is more customized to their needs.

This is like saying motherboards with only one PCI slot and two RAM slot shouldn't exist because you don't move them. Why should I pay for them then? Not moving the PC isn't a good argument for putting useless stuff in it, it comes down to better utilization of space and money.

Except the Mini-ITX motherboards with only one PCI-e slot and two RAM slots actually tend to cost more than a Micro-ATX motherboard with more expansion options, so you're actually paying more to have that functionality removed there as well. A better utilization of money would be to go with the slightly larger board with more features that costs less. : P

And I was never saying that these more compact designs "shouldn't exist", just pointing out some reasons why external drive bays are still relevant features to include on PC cases, why case manufacturers still include them, and why they might charge a premium for a newer case design with the drive bays removed. The OP said they were "puzzled" by it, after all, and asked for opinions on whether we thought 5.25" drive cages should continue to be included in cases.

 

[nonsleeper]

The "statistics" themselves don't mean much to anyone though, if someone is just claiming that such numbers exist somewhere, and not providing any further details. My point was that providing someone else's numbers and projections is meaningless if there's no context for who was making those claims, what exactly they might have been talking about, or what their data actually covered. Your argument would be stronger by just pointing out that the install-base of optical drives in newer systems is declining, leaving out the "statistics" part entirely. Obviously optical drives in PCs are seeing less use lately, and many people can get along fine without one, but I have strong doubts that over 50% of desktop computers in use today don't have an optical drive. Not only do the majority of pre-built Windows 10 desktop PCs available at Newegg still come with an optical drive built in, but so do a majority of the 15-17" Windows 10 laptops for sale there.

I could easily find the figures, and he seems to be right about them. I'm sure he is referring to newly made PCs and not the ones people are already using. So when you say "I have strong doubts that over 50% of desktop computers in use today don't have an optical drive.", your argument isn't relevant to this thread at all. This is not about old PCs in use, they have already purchased their cases. And majority of laptops shipped today don't have an optical.

Sure, perhaps there could be a wider selection of budget cases available without drive bays, but there are some available, and if someone is especially picky about how their case looks and what sort of features it contains, they'll likely be willing to pay a bit more to get a case that is more customized to their needs.

He sure said he couldn't find any in the budget range in Australia, so there must be limited availability. I don't see why you are arguing that people should pay more for something that can made for less cost.

Except the Mini-ITX motherboards with only one PCI-e slot and two RAM slots actually tend to cost more than a Micro-ATX motherboard with more expansion options, so you're actually paying more to have that functionality removed there as well. A better utilization of money would be to go with the slightly larger board with more features that costs less. : P

Except that there are micro-atx motherboard without extra features that I don't need and cost less than other micro or full atx motherboards that have the feature. I don't see how I am paying more for them. I can buy ASUS H110M-E over another motherboard with two PCIe if I only need one PCIe, your argument is that I should pay for the drive cage even if I don't need it because I don't move the PC.

Another example, if I have a budget of $69, I can buy the MSI H110I Pro Mini-ITX if I don't need extra PCIe and RAM slots, instead of paying the same or more for a bigger motherboard and get features I don't need. Or I can buy a micro-atx without the feature I don't need and pay less, so I don't have to pay for the feature I don't use.
Your argument was that "we don't move the case so we should put the drive cage in it". People shouldn't have to spend space and money on it if they don't need it. I don't think this is a hard concept to grasp.

 

[danielthegreate]

We will always see this general resistance to change. It is called the "Mere-exposure effect".

On laptops it is already gone, it will soon go the way of CRT monitors and 3.5 floppies. I remember seeing exact same topics with people defending the floppy drive.

Interesting, mere-exposure effect fits the bill. I was curious as to why people even go to extreme lengths to deny that the optical media is on a sharp decline in gaming builds. Less cautious hardware makers appear to be moving on earlier.
I really liked the VIVO "SMART" Micro-ATX Tower Gaming Case, it trades off the 5.25 drive bays for better airflow and has cleaner looks. Modern cases are going for 3 front fans and liquid cooling support. This one has it all in at a very affordable price point.

You could save about $40 by buying this case over other similar options and about at least $20 for removing an optical drive from your purchase list. That is $60 you can spend on a better CPU, GPU or even a good liquid cooler for quiet operation as the case supports it. I think people should know that this case exists for $35, sadly it is not available in Australia.

 

[VIVO-US]

sadly it is not available in Australia.

Yes, we've unfortunately had some trouble getting our cases beyond North America with our current distribution networks, and I see the others haven't quite made it out to Australia either. I'm sure that'll change in the not too distant future though, especially with Amazon setting up over there!

 

[YoAndy]

Really? A lot of new high end builds require 5.25 drives Like this one https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/RAMPAGE_V_EXTREME/.

Like the one I'm building now still utilize the 5.25 drives. Using this motherboard https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132698&cm_re=MAXIMIS_EXTREME_ASSAMBLY-_-13-132-698-_-Product

 

[Karadjgne]

Aussies are not fond of foreigners. Learned that when I lived there. Consequently, anything they consider 'foreign' gets import taxed out the wazoo, so while there might be case designs in the 'budget' range that don't include a 5.25, by the time they get to Aussie, they are no longer really 'budget' but more mid-stream. It's only when you finally grease the right wheels that you get viewed as 'acceptible' and import duties drop off considerably, that importers will retain enough profit margin to make the entire enterprise financially worth the effort.

 

[Karadjgne]

@YoAndy,

Thats just a mobo, got really nothing to do with the build in general. I have a fractal design define R5, that's a high end case, in it is a msi mpower motherboard (equitable to Asus ROG), Intel i7, 16Gb of ram, 280mm nzxt liquid cooler, gtx970. It's a high end build. And yes it has an optical drive. That does get used, (maybe not frequently). I have older games that still use cd/DVD, I'll sometimes throw a red box dvd/BR in it if I want to watch a movie while the TV is occupied by grandkids, wife listens to CD's she's burned, rotates them in/out of the car etc. I could have spent an extra $20 for an external drive, but why? I ready had 3x optical from older builds I just rotated one into the new one. It means I don't have a drive floating around on the desktop or in a drawer, no USB wear and tear on connevtors/cables, I get to close the case door and never see the drive until I need it.
And that 3rd intake fan at the top of the case is an airflow disaster. All it does it direct heat away from the top mount exhausts in a circulatory pattern. Far better to retain just the lower 2x intakes and not disrupt airflow from bottom to top.

So that whole top-front quadrant of the case does absolutely nothing, it's wasted space unless used primarily for full custom loop applications. So why not stick the option for optical, fan controllers, SD card readers etc. Having no option is limiting. I can swap out microSD from my phone, flash from my old camera, SD from wife's camera, etc, all at direct USB3 speeds, without tieing up a front usb3 slot with a cable connected to a cheapo card reader adapter that'll usually be USB2 anyway.

So yes, many ppl even with high end builds, still have or could possibly have reason for an optical bay, so eliminating that option entirely, precludes any possible sales. And with sales competition as stiff as it is, trying to corner the market on a specific audience like ppl who do not want optical option is a fools errand since most are either not bothered or use the option somehow.

Be kinda like selling a sportscar geared for older folks with a guarantee that it won't go over the speed limit, just because some of them refuse to drive fast.

@VIVO,
Its always nice to see active input from the source, like manufacturers and vendors, so just wanted to say Thank You for taking the time

 

[VIVO-US]

@VIVO,
Its always nice to see active input from the source, like manufacturers and vendors, so just wanted to say Thank You for taking the time

You're welcome!

 

[YoAndy]

@YoAndy,

Thats just a mobo, got really nothing to do with the build in general. I have a fractal design define R5, that's a high end case, in it is a msi mpower motherboard (equitable to Asus ROG), Intel i7, 16Gb of ram, 280mm nzxt liquid cooler, gtx970. It's a high end build. And yes it has an optical drive. That does get used, (maybe not frequently). I have older games that still use cd/DVD, I'll sometimes throw a red box dvd/BR in it if I want to watch a movie while the TV is occupied by grandkids, wife listens to CD's she's burned, rotates them in/out of the car etc. I could have spent an extra $20 for an external drive, but why? I ready had 3x optical from older builds I just rotated one into the new one. It means I don't have a drive floating around on the desktop or in a drawer, no USB wear and tear on connevtors/cables, I get to close the case door and never see the drive until I need it.
And that 3rd intake fan at the top of the case is an airflow disaster. All it does it direct heat away from the top mount exhausts in a circulatory pattern. Far better to retain just the lower 2x intakes and not disrupt airflow from bottom to top.

So that whole top-front quadrant of the case does absolutely nothing, it's wasted space unless used primarily for full custom loop applications. So why not stick the option for optical, fan controllers, SD card readers etc. Having no option is limiting. I can swap out microSD from my phone, flash from my old camera, SD from wife's camera, etc, all at direct USB3 speeds, without tieing up a front usb3 slot with a cable connected to a cheapo card reader adapter that'll usually be USB2 anyway.

So yes, many ppl even with high end builds, still have or could possibly have reason for an optical bay, so eliminating that option entirely, precludes any possible sales. And with sales competition as stiff as it is, trying to corner the market on a specific audience like ppl who do not want optical option is a fools errand since most are either not bothered or use the option somehow.

Be kinda like selling a sportscar geared for older folks with a guarantee that it won't go over the speed limit, just because some of them refuse to drive fast.

@VIVO,
Its always nice to see active input from the source, like manufacturers and vendors, so just wanted to say Thank You for taking the time

@Karadjgne I wasn't talking about enthusiast I said High end build for ""extreme overclokers"" that's the high end I know , and compared with Asus , Msi doesn't give u any bundled hardware of course that's because they are not that mainstream and I wouldn't really call them Extreme

 

[madmatt30]

Huge amount of budget cases available in the uk with no external bays.
On one website alone Ive found 15 dsifferent models all under $40 from kolink,game max & CIT.
I think its more likely just availability in the Australian market.

 

[Karadjgne]

YoAndy, MSI has plenty of bundled hardware, even fully equipped pc's and gaming laptop's, so dunno where you are headed with that. Extreme OC? MSI is just as much part of extreme OC as it is enthusiast, just how extreme are you talking that Asus goes to that MSI doesn't? 4.9-5.0GHz? LN2? All done on MSI just as much as Asus. Asus is just more well known simply because they've been around longer and had a good world-wide start compared to MSI. MSI not mainstream? Wow dude, that's harsh, wrong, but still harsh.

 

[VIVO-US]

YoAndy, MSI has plenty of bundled hardware, even fully equipped pc's and gaming laptop's, so dunno where you are headed with that.

Of course they're missing hardware! The MSI GTX 960 I bought for my PC last year didn't include a kitchen sink or even a selfie-stick for my iPhone. All it had was drivers, instructions, and extremely nice packaging to go with its tremendously stylish appearance and ultra-quiet operation. How am I supposed to know if it's working if the fans aren't at least as loud as a turbine?

 

[Karadjgne]

my i7-3770k sits quite comfy at 4.9GHz at 1.32v. As easy as that OC was, I'm betting I could probably hit 5.0-5.1 before hitting voltage caps, totally stable at 74C under p95 small fft, Asus RealBench, Aida64, OCCT+linpack, running 16Gb of Patriot Intel Extreme Masters (That's World Class Gaming Ram, JFYI) 1866GHz ram and a GTX970 that's pushing a 128% OC. Now, YoAndy, just how extreme do you want to talk about OC? All that on an MSI mPower Big Bang Z77 mobo. Its pretty much the same thing as an Asus ROG Z77. Wanna talk Extreme as in 2011-3 builds ? Try on the MSI Godlike, they are nice, pricy, but nice.