System Build help. £700, Mainly gaming

Corsair is good , Crucial , OCZ , Geil are als overy good
1950Pro 512 is a very nice card for the money

Would you chose one of those types over the corsair I've picked?

You might see a good performance boost from going to 2GB of RAM. I paid $106 last month for my Geil RAM, which runs at 4-4-4-12. That would be about £55? If I bought the same sticks today, they'd be $100 with a $35 MIR, or only $65. Oh well for me.
A 460W PSU ought to be enough, if the quality is there. What brand and model is it?

If u can dind them cheaper or a little more expensive ,then get them

Ok I found the Geil sticks at www.nextag.co.uk. The Ultra is £70, or the black dragon (the one with the 4-4-4-12 timings) is £90. Leaving me almost spot on £700 still. Is this memory to be recommended over the corsair?

The PSU is an Active PFC Energmax, which I suspect is rather old.

yes , Black Dragon is very well , i have heard many good reviews about it

Ok I think I will go with the Black Dragon kit from Overclockers UK, as they have it a bit cheaper. There have been a few comments about stability issues and small overclocking potential on other reviews, can you put them to rest?

Also if I'm going to buy black dragon series memory what voltage should it be rated to? I've just seen ultra upto 2.3V and BD upto 2.0V. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd be greatful.

Just to reitereate what a previous poster mentioned,
2GB of memory should be considered a requirement in this build.

I could not tell from the follow up messages if you were looking at the 2gb combos.

If you needed to shave money off the system, you could easily get a cheaper cooler. The E6750 are G0 stepping chips that run much much cooler than previous C2Ds and if you are not over clocking, you could likely get a slightly cheaper cooler and put that towards more ram.

I am looking at 2x1Gb modules of DDR2-PC6400 memory. Still open to offers on which type to buy. I've found some Ballistic or XMS2 DHX in the same sort of price range.

I'd like to know a little more about memory voltages (something I'm not very familiar with at all).

Do the processors come with stock coolers, if so I could live without the aftermarket one.

For gaming you should go more in the GPU. I would suggest cutting the CPU down to an E2140. The E2140 at 3.1GHz can match the performance of the X6800. With the savings go for the 8800GTS 320mb. This setup will beat yours in games regardless the OC of E6750 at a reasonable resolution and is DX10 compatible. The E2140 should be about £70 less than E6750. If your motherboard cant OC well get the E2160 for about £10 more. This suggest is with no upgrade needed where you will need a new system in 2~3 years.

Its always advisable to buy 1 high end part where you plan on upgrading the other in a year. Maybe a Q6600 for about £50 extra over the E6750. With no OC theres little difference in the two in only dual core programs but in quad core compatible programs the Q6600 will eat the E6750 for lunch. The Q6600 can perform about 80% better in quad core compatible programs than an E6600. If we multiply the Q6600's GHz by 80% then we have about the GHz need from a dual core to match. 2.4GHz X 1.8= 4.32GHz which is more than any dual core can OC on air and remember thats a stock Q6600. This suggestion will need a GPU upgrade in about a year and due to the quad core would be worth a major GPU upgrade.

My first suggestion will require a better PSU so the second suggest is adviced.

I've just looked up the E2140 (£43) which is rated at 1.66Ghz, which to my mind is rather large amount slower than the one I speced. For me to commit to buying it I need convincing that a processor this much slower can be overclocked (with my limited skill) to 3.1GHz; and if I can't overclock it how much slower applications will run with this rather than the E6750?

I also checked the Q6600 which is significantly more expensive at £174, approx £60 more than origonally budgeted for the processor - I'm not sure if my budget will stretch. I'm also not convinced in the need for such a powerful processor as I haven't come across programs with quad core support yet. (But maybe I have and just not noticed!)

For the graphics card I was intending to run with the X1950 Pro until the games I'm running out pace it then upgrade to something faster and with DX10 capabilities, I'm convinced that the 8800GTS is an incredibly fast card with masses of potential but do I need it?

By rearranging the spec to a slower processor the system will presumably run less well in applications/startup/movies(?) - will I see a big difference in simulation games between a X1950 Pro and the Nvidia offering?

If I'm going to need a new PSU what do you recommend - I have no knowledge in this field. Remembering that I'm still trying my best to stick to budget!!

(PS. Thanks for the help it is very much appreciated)

I would advise 2gb of ram for gaming!

Well , if u can then get the Q6600 ,
also for E2140 vs E6750 , check tomshardware charts, E2140 is slower than E6750 when not OCed , but its a very good OCer
also for graphic card, 8800GTS 320 is good for resolutions lower than 1600x1200 , (that includes 1600x1200 too) ,

Ok a recap:

The spec as it stands now:

MSI P35 Platinum (£103)

Core 2 Duo E6750 (£116)

250GB Segate Barracuda, 7200rpm, S300 (£38)

Geil Black Dragon 2GB PC6400 4-4-4-12(£90) - change

ATi X1950 Pro, 512mb, GDDR3 (£90)

Zalman Heatpipe (£33)

Samsung 226BW 22" Widescreen (£233)

Questions needing answering:

Do I need a new PSU I have a 460W Energmax, if so which do you recommend?

Are all these components going to work well together?

Am I better doing either of the suggestions given by elbert rather than the spec above?

The E2140 OC'ed to 2.8GHz would be about an equal to the E6750. Even with no OC the E2140 will beat your setup with the 8800GTS in games. Now while the others programs besides games will run slower next year pop in a cheap quad core as the GPU would be worth the upgrade. Im not sure about movies as no compare has been down against a DX9 ATI verses a DX10 nvidia. The 8800GTS is more likely to work with HD video. At 1280X1024 the 8800GTS system will pull ahead of the X1950 as the CPU doesn't compare to the difference in the 2 GPU's.

Check out some quad core benchmarks on supreme commander.

Hmm, at the moment I'm just proposing this in reverse. I'll pop in DX10 card in a year when it is more affordable and fully tested against games. At the moment it looks like an 8800GTS is a bit to expensive, especially if I need a new PSU, and no-one really knows how well the current DX10 card will perform in the new DX10 games.

I'm not completely convinced about my ability to overclock a processor that far - also this needs to be a system that can last fairly well, I don't want to break a processor! It's looking more like a Q6600 if I can rattle together some funds.

Here are some benchmarks. First 2 links show a X2 3800+ with a 8800GTX beating an E6600 with a 8800GTS. Point is the GPU make all the difference. The X2 3800+ is the budget build in these benchmark. Note how any resolution above 1280X1024 the budget build wins.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/11/system_builder_marathon/page11.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/11/system_builder_marathon/page12.html

The quad core links. Note the doubling of the FPS when going from 2 to 3 cores in the first chart. Note that even a dual core OC'ed to 3.5GHz in chart 3 doesn't top the FPS in the none OC'ed quad in chart 1. The second link shows that a quad core does make a difference at higher FPS. Finally note valves quad core patch to their HL2 engine.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/660-3/supreme-commander-benchmark.html
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMwNiw1LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/intel_core_quad_q6600_preview/page5.asp

I would suggest the quad core upgrade as we will not be going octal cores anytime soon.

Thats sounding like a great investment. The quad system should be very usable given a GPU upgrade for about 4 years.

Brilliant thanks for your help. Do you think that my PSU will run all this?

Just out of interest what programs take advantage of quad core/dual core?

You will have to check your PSU. The x1950pro requires a 450w power supply or greater with 30 Amps on 12 volt rail this is however with a fully loaded system. If this is your PSU then it should however I don't like the fact that the +3.3, +5, and +12v counts up to 596w.
http://www.enermax.com.tw/english/product_Display1.asp?PrID=28



Very few games take advantage of quad core but most of the major software titles are working toward quad core patches. The biggest title this year will take advantage of quad core. Crysis should make quad core worth the cost alone. Being able to do other things while playing games with little loss of performance is important as I like to play music. Just set the affinity to the 3 or 4th core. Your system will be more responsive coming out of games as windows is quad core compatible. Set your anti-virus to work on the 3 or 4th core will help performance if your anti-virus doesnt do this itself.


http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134380-c,desktoppcs/article.html

List: 3D Studio Max 9, POV-Ray, Adobe Lightroom, many file zippers, Nero Recode, compiling in windows and Linux, lightwave 9, Windows Media Encoder 9 with the latest 6.4, Adobe After Effects 7.0, Flight Simulator 2004 7FPS higher at the same clock with highest settings, and supreme commander.
Crytec states crysis will be and Valve has show patches in the works.
I'm sure theres more and this is just a small list i've found.

Thanks for that post elbert very knowledgeable indeed.

I think I will try the system with my old PSU but if I have to fork out for a new one what would you recommend, whilst trying to keep cost low. Maybe it should be able to handle a 8800 type card for future upgrades.

Is the processor I buy from dabs likely to come with a cooler or not? If I don't need an aftermarket one it saves me some trouble and money.

I have always found MSI mobo's to be poor OC' ers, so I would suggest one of these http://www.yoyotech.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=20_47&products_id=4328&osCsid=ff4fc434b45802eb5daba3e2b19ad278
and it's cheaper than the MSI one.

By the specs of the PSU it should handle the 8800's if its not aged hard. The way you tell if the CPU comes with a heatsink/fan is if its retail. OEM CPU's are the ones that don't come with a HSF. Even with the retail you may want to invest in some quality thermal compound. This one looks to be retail but dabs doesn't state either way. I would guess it is as it has a mfr# where an OEM would be blank.
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4DWF&CategorySelectedId=11147&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11147#specifications
Most sites if they show a box its retail and if they show a CPU its OEM. Here is an OEM CPU which doesn't have a HSF.
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4B8J&CategorySelectedId=11147&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11147

Thats a good suggest as the MSI is high priced. From the savings the OP could go for 2GB's or RAM. I like this mother board as well.
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4KRT&CategorySelectedId=11143&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11143,405070000,42180000
The thing I hate is all the good mobo's max out at 8GB's. A 16GB mobo would match up to vista 64bit perfectly.

Yep two more Sata ports but no heatsink over the power regulator thingies behind the CPU, but it does have ye olde printer port!, and a serial port neither of which are present on the Abit.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I've just checked out the gigabyte one which, as you say, is £30 cheaper it also supports DDR2-PC8500 RAM.

an upgrade from the ram I speced - 2GB Black Dragon PC6400 - to 2GB Crucial Ballistixs PC8500 is £30, is it worth it?

Or should I put it towards a quad core - it gets me halfway there?

Which am I going to see the best preformance from?

And should I just wait for the PC8500 to fall in price and reach better timings, currently 5-5-5-15 on the Crucial Ballistixs?

Crucial Ballistixs
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/show [...] Y-093-CR&g roupid=701&catid=8&subcat=817

I also like the extra SATA connectors even if I don't ever think I'll have 8 drives to attach to them!

Well as I've already ordered and paid for my quad core I'm a bit biased towards them but I don't intend to do any gaming on it and TBH I think the E6850 may turn out to be the better performer in games with it's 1333 FSB Vs the Q6600's 1066 FSB at least until Yorkdale (I think that's what the 45nm quad will be?) arrives.
As for the RAM I would be inclined to stick with PC6400 until prices come down a bit.

Right I've just looked at all the components and added it up the total is around £650.

That means I can have either:

An E6850

A Q6600

Paired with

2GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2-PC8500 5-5-5-15

2GB Black Dragon DDR2-PC8500 5-5-5-15

2GB Black Dragon DD2-PC6400 4-4-4-12

some other make that you can sell me on

Memory: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productlist.php?groupid=7... 817

I bought some of this from here on Sunday http://www.yoyotech.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=18_41&products_id=1380&osCsid=f2e7c1c691297c9eec6ebb2934cf07e5
and it's paired up with with an E6850 (placeholder!   ).

Hint:click on the forums button at the top of the page and read the third sticky!  

Another place to get Ram cheaper is at Link below.
http://www.memoryc.com/products/type/Computer_Memory/DDR2/index.html

Also here is a Web based PSU Caculator link, that is very good on determining what Wattage you need to have for your computer. Also more wattage is better then not having enough, err on the high side when choosing a PSU.
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

If you need a PSU, check the 600W OCZ GameXStream Power Supply for £ 70.83 inc vat at link below.
http://www.memoryc.com/products/description/600W_OCZ_GameXStream_Power_Supply_SLI_Ready-UK_version_/index.html

Hope this helps some.

Thanks once again for the posts. Mousemonkey I'm not sure where that sticky is I can't find it - a link would be good if you have time.

I checked the PSU calculator - it suggests I need about 370ish, so I think mine should muster that. But Yoosty I'll bear the OCZ one in mind if it turns out I need a new one.

I still need selling on a memory type/make and processor. What am I going to see the best performance from?

Linkie as requested http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=95401  

Looks good I just need to decide what I'm having before I can do it.

I think the quad and 2GB of black dragon PC8500.

Comments

This would make the full spec:

CPU: Intel Q6600

RAM: 2GB Black Dragon DDR2-PC8500 5-5-5-15

MB: Gigabyte GA_P35C_DS3R

HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 250GB S300

GPU: ATi X1950 Pro 512MB GDDR3

Monitor: Samsung 226BW 22inch widescreen.

No they come in PC6400 also, but only in 4gb or 8gb kits. Even OCZ has PC6400 quad channel ram but in 4gb kit.

I've seen the black dragon in PC6400 (4-4-4-12), but I'm assuming that the BD PC8500 (5-5-5-15) is faster, therefore better for my build.

I've just read this article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/08/08/extreme_fsb_2/
Please can some one explain what the conclusion is in terms of my build, I can go for either an E6850 (faster than the duo tested here) or a Q6600, but which do I choose??

looks very nice , but get ASUS P5KC (it has the same features )and its cheaper

If u do strictly gaming , get the E6850 ( but future games will utilize QUAD CORE , like Crysis ) overall , get Q6600 :
http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3038&p=...

I can't find that motherboard cheaper, I think I'll stick with the gigabyte.

ok , u wont be disappointed with the GIGABYTE one either   ,
If u do strictly gaming , get the E6850 ( but future games will utilize QUAD CORE , like Crysis ) overall , get Q6600 :
http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3038&p=...

I don't do completely gaming, but then I'm not doing massive image editting programs either. I suspect that future games will try and use 4 cores, as will everything else at which point the Q6600 will be the better bet and this machine has to last for quite some time.

So final build specs:

Q6600 Quad core processor

Gigabyte GA_P35C_DS3R

2GB Black Dragon DDR2-PC8500 5-5-5-15

Seagate Barracuda 7200rpm, 250GB

Ati X1950 Pro, 512Mb, GDDR3

Samsung 226BW monitor.

Many thanks to everyone who has helped me out with a post (or multiple), I'd welcome any further comments and if no-one can convince me otherwise I'll be buying this tomorrow.

Jeremy

one word : Solid

The conclusion is in most current games both the quad and the dual are near even at the same GHz. OC'ed the quad gets a little better boost in performance but not due to a higher GHz because dual's OC is about .16GHz lower. The final conclusion shows that even a maxed out dual core at 4.16GHz only equals a 2.66GHz quad as a total. This is with an even mix of quad core optimized and dual core only optimized programs. As programs go all quad core optimized those number will start reflecting a full 80% increase for quads. When looking at the benchmark please not that the Qx6850 is under clocked to 2.66GHz or about equal to the E6750. All the games are benchmarked at 1024X768 so we can see the difference in games were at a higher resolution in dual core optimized games you will see no difference.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me out with a post or two, or multiple. They've been very useful and I purchased my build this morning with the same spec as above.

Thanks once again
Jeremy