DRM and Piracy: The Vicious Circle - Page 4

Well there are some legitimate criticisms of Steam. First they occasionally have glitchy problems. Second it sucks big time if you are on dialup and is entirely unusable if you have no internet connection at all. Third, they allow, without warning the consumer, for publishers to incorporate 4th party DRM on top of steam.

All in all, for the majority of gamers, Steam is still pretty good, but there are a few for whom steam is not feasible.

Razor... yes it does justify the practice in the case of the DRM methods that we are supporting.

Impulse, MMOs, Consoles, Steam, and basic CD checks. These methods are not terribly inconveniencing to consumers and they have a notable effect on piracy.

Also your analogy, as usual, is stupid. If a district had that high of a crime rate and that low of an arrest rate the state would declare martial law and lock down everyone which is obviously not what you are suggesting so quit trying to draw a correlation to law. It doesn't work.

Aww, but we were getting so close to agreeing for once. ;-)

Hey I'm going on vacation so I need to get my fix for the next 10 days.

Regrettably, I was away from my computer for some time; but I just thought i'd add the following -



Getting upset at people who provide the demand for pirated games is 100% certifiably /pointless/

If you want to get upset at anyone, get upset at those distributing the games - as that is the very definition of piracy; "making available of content"


If you start to think of digital media piracy in a relation to drug addiction, it becomes rather easy to see why 1: people pirate games and 2: why pirates provide the games to be downloaded.

The people pirating games are the drug addicts, they are looking for their next "gaming fix" and they will do anything to get it - including steal. In their minds its okay for them to steal because they /need/ that gaming rush in order to get through their day/week/month/year.

The people providing pirated games are alike to drug pushers; they provide a service to acquire this digital media under the pretense typically pertaining to some form of sponsorship - whether it be through advertising, identity theft schemes, or terminal access control schemes (trojan horses); in pretty much every case, those providing the software initially do it for their own benefit in some way.

Then of course there are the lower end drug reseller types; those who just take someone elses product and dole it out to people they know in exchange for money (or other illegal software) - ultimately, these people do a great degree of local piracy and they continue to sustain the demand for more pirated content.

That all having been said, i'm not justifying or encouraging the piracy of games - but I am quite simply stating that unless you cut the problem off at the very beginning; those making the software available in the first place; then there is absolutely no point in complaining or doing much of anything - because this phenomenon simply cannot be stopped.

I buy my PC games because I like gaming on the PC because of the increased image quality - I know that if I stop buying PC games, that inevitably others will as well until the point comes that more and more people aren't buying - at which point the platform will cease to be viable.

basically for the whole drm debate,

base line answer

drm wouldn't have such a uproar and be under so much debate if what i said previously was not true

drm fails because the innocent people suffer more than the pirates because the drm only effects them

If you don't like the analogy then just take it for face value:


People pirate games because they have addictions to video gaming, this is hardly uncommon - they become so detached from reality that they feel its okay to steal games, music, and movies; because to them satisfying their entertainment urges is more important than any sort of morality - in fact, these people are very much slaves to mass media entertainment.

There, no analogy - face value; and its really very much truthful thought. People use media entertainment generally speaking to avoid the real world, as its much more fun to step into fantasy for a lot of people because it lets them forget about responsibilities. I don't believe that every gamer is a gaming addict - but I do //believe// (opinion) people who steal entertainment in any form quite obviously do have an addiction problem.

The only genre that has really not had much problems with pirating is the MMO community. You buy the game, you register and get a user name, you cannot play unless you log in. A similar approach could be used for any game, not just online games.
The internet is becoming available almost anywhere including public transportation. Airliners will soon be offering internet during flights as well, so not having the internet available at all times will not be a problem.

razor,

what do you mean crack versions of game? crack the WoW client so 40 people join their small private server without any update?

jack,
while all game can go with MMO alike monthly charge. but then no body will ever buy it. most online game rental only cost 14/mon and its not lock to single title. unless game dev outlaw rental otherwise is wishful thinking.

i dont know how.. or where tom find this guy to write the column. but i dont think he knowledgeable enuff to write this article.
"I'm not terribly concerned about digital rights (or "restrictions," depending on who you ask) management"

did he know the history of DRM?? aka sony DRM and root kit is? i know sony say drop the root kit, but do you ever trust any DRM ever again? and not worry restrictions... good lord, we talking tomshardware right?? the site that most reader upgrade their computer all the time..

even CNN could done better then this..

i think tom find this guy and he pretty good at writing columns.. he knowledgeable enough to give opinion, and good enough for reader to read. in fact look how much discussion one article caused. i'd say that is about much as ask for

What evidence is there to suggest that piracy is mostly the product of addiction? Your theory seems to be that the only reason to steal anything is addiction. If somebody steals a car are they addicted to cars?
Regardless of that question my argument is that you say pirates do so because they are "detached from reality", whereas I think piracy is considered very normal and is hardly considered a deviat activity. Unlike drug use and commen theft which are severly looked down upon piracy of games, movies and especially music is barely frowned upon. If you were to take a survey of average people ranking where they see piracy as a crime my guess would be that it would fall somewhere around the range of speeding rather than other forms of theft. I've even known pastors who've downloaded a song or two from a P2P for church services without giving it a second thought. The point being it hardly takes an abnormal personality to think downloading digital content is ok.

While I admire your tenacity to argue your point of view; i'm entitled to my point of view and i've already stated reasoning for why I believe that.

I've never met anyone who stole cars for fun, typically people become thieves to support another aspect of their life whether it is substance abuse or simply a desire for "more bling"

I believe anyone that thinks it is okay to steal has loose morals - go ahead and steal all you want; but if you steal, you're a thief and I have no respect for thieves.

Yea, and i've known "deliverers of the faith" who've raped children - why you're attempting to use religious figures as something to support your argument is not something I can understand. Pastors are no "holier" than you and I; they are men, they are /NOT/ divine.

The fact that people think its "okay" to speed is borderline appalling. I don't know if you've noticed lately but PEOPLE **** DIE because of speeding, in fact travelling in excess of posted speed limits is one of the most common contributors to motor vehicle accidents.

Sure, but that doesn't mean I agree with it; and i've already stated my point of view upon modern societies and their addiction to media entertainment.

You can believe what you want, but questioning every word that I post doesn't make your point of view right. If you want to state a point of view go ahead, but don't try to invalidate my point of view through convoluted arguments. If you think i'm going to force my ethics upon anyone you would be sorely mistaken; but i'm pulling your post apart because i'm getting sick of people trying to point at my posts and invalidate my personal ethics and opinion on the subject.

A little touchy I see ovaltine. Sorry but when you say that piracy is caused by addiction for no reason other than opinion it deserves to be scrutinized. I'm not going to argue about morals because they are a completely made up and arbitrary set of opinions. Addiction on the other hand is a very real and clearly defined affliction. Saying it causes piracy would be the same as saying something like left handedness causes piracy. Unless you can actually back it up with something showing that left handed people pirate more than right handed people it deserves to be scrutinized.
You're addiction theory is flawed because it relies on two points that are highly unlikely. The first, which I'm very prone to argue about so just deal with it or drop the topic, is the idea that video games are abnormally addictive. I say abnormally because almost anything can be addictive so it's only natural to expect that a certain number of gamers will become addicted. However based on the amount of piracy and your theory that it's caused mostly by video game addicts it would indicate an enormously huge % of gamers being addicted. I find that theory appalling.
The second part of your theory that is flawed is the assumption that video game addicts would be pirating like crazy. In reality there's no reason to believe this. In cases where we know of real game addiction the addicts tend to be deeply locked into a single game. A clear sign of a game addict is somebody who spends a lot of time playing games but only plays a very few number of games. This doesn't fit the mold of piracy.
Also why do you think game addicts would necessarily turn to stealing to "get their fix"? With drug use you are already dealing with an illegal activity so increased illegal activities of other forms are only natural. But gaming is legal even if addicted, so it's better to compare it to other legal addictions. Do smokers or alcoholics have abnormally high tendencies to steal their fix? No not really. So why would gamer addicts?


Just one separate point I want to clear up. In my anecdote about the pirating-pastor my intent was not to say that this person had some moral high ground which we should all abide by just because he is a person of faith. I personally would laugh at that very notion. My point was that here was somebody who I can vouch for as truly trying to live an honest life but pirated music out of pure ignorance. Had the idea even occurred to him that he was stealing I’m certain he would not of done it. In reality there is no actual “pastor”, I just combined the idea of the many people whom I’ve known who’ve downloaded music without even given a thought as to whether or not what they were doing was theft. They do not account for all piracy or even most, but even software, music and movie companies readily acknowledge that ignorance or at least complacence accounts for a large amount of piracy. A lot more than addiction.

Most games I think target a teenage demographic. Teenagers are not the wealthiest segment of of our society and have lots of time to crack games, etc. As gamers are getting older, there aren't as many adult oriented titles. I think game companies should pull their heads out of the sand and figure out where the money is they can actually get to and start writing games accordingly.

I think they should do away with SecuROM/Starforce, because as others have pointed out it does little more than punish paying customers.

As I stated earlier in the thread if I recall correctly, STEAM is a good DRM program - everything else is pretty much borderline dysfunctional from the get-go.

piracy is not caused by an addiction to gaming. It is the direct result of a low risk to reward ratio and a large percentage of the target audience having more time than money to dedicate to the hobby.

The surplus of time means that they will want to fill it playing more games. The absence of money means that they need to find alternative ways of obtaining those games if they want to play them. The result is piracy. It really is a rather simple relationship to figure out.

Last I checked, EA's DRM still has limited installs and requires to you contact their customer service if you ever have a need to install it more than 3 times. And on top of that their customer service line has no obligation to allow you to install it again and they are notoriously unhelpful people. I will not buy any game with those restrictions for anything more than what I consider fair RENTAL prices. I will not however pirate it either. EA just won't get my money.

- a valid opinion, with amusing correlations to the psychology of addictions; but having a low risk-to-reward ratio just means there are less barriers, making it easier for people to throw themselves at the gaming which devours their time.

There is a big difference between hobbyists and people who spend every free moment of their time practicing a "hobby" - I never have once said that every person who steals is an addict, nor did I say that every addict is a thief; what I am saying is that there is definitely a correlation between people with addiction problems (in any form whether it is drugs, alcohol, smokes, or yes even gaming) and theft to support these habits.

Piracy is stealing, and stealing is a crime any way you cut it; there is no damn grey area - its theft in just as much of a way that shoplifting a game, movie, or CD from a retail counter. Again, is every shoplifter an addict? Doubtful. Are they stealing to suppliment their lifestyle in some way? Certainly.

"As long as I'm on the fence about everything in my life, I'll always be right!"

I think what you really meant was "As with all things, compromise lies in the middle." In the context of discussion I think both sides do present valid points, but I can't help but be a bit disgusted in other (more black and white) arguments, generally relating to science, where people take that same sort of stance essentially diluting the truth, getting a sort of murky, mixed view of reality that isn't supported at all by the evidence simply for the sake of being "in the middle" and not taking a polarized viewpoint.

I read reviews of Sins of a Solar Empire. I liked what I read. I pirated the game. I tried it and liked what I saw. I went to EB and bought a copy. Worth every penny. Did I have to buy it, no. But I wanted to support the company for making such a good game. This is the third game ive pirated thats made/published by Stardock and the third game ive bought made/published by Stardock. While im sure not everyone does this, I view piracy as a unofficial "try before you buy" concept. If the game is junk, I uninstall it, delete it, and move on. I didnt waste $50 only to be disappointed.

Just read the whole thread, and i have decided to put my paw on it.

The discussion was great with both sides posting with somewhat flameless "arguments".
I kinda enjoyed that. Now lets all say out loud:

"The Path of Less resistivity is followed by all the ramblers" - Thundgot

Quoting Razor512:

This is somewhat true, but in HD video business the things are very messy atm. you got blue ray, enhanced DVD is popping like popcorn, x.264 encoding, and that Chinese standard i don't remember atm. But ultimatly, people will choose Enhanced DVD or x.264. Because is the cheapest and most flexible. I know this is somwhat unrelated but please keep up with me, it is important for my point. Xvid and Divx were very successful because of those points too. Cheap and Easy.
Same with MP3. it because a standard for digital media, not because it was the best, but because it was cheap, easy and pretty much defined at the time.

Now, we see that DRM in the case of Blue Ray, is damaging the experience provided by somewhat similar standards only at less than half of the total cost, with somewhat the same experience. Blue-ray is not being accepted so good, and if you cut the numbers of PS3 out there, you get the real acceptance of blue-ray. Witch is ridiculous.

So we should conclude that DRM should be transparent.

Next to the TOP 10 List of sold games, Quoting Acid88 on this one:

Analysis of the TOP ten Sales, it is my analysis of the games, i might not be 100% correct:

DRM analysis

1 - Serial, Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
2 - Standart DRM, CD-Check, copy-check. Almost Invisible to Original copy players.
3 - Serial, Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
4 - I am not familiar with this one, but i guess CD-Key and CD-check.
5 - Heavy DRM
6 - CD-Key, and CD-check. But you dont need the CD when running the game in the drive. Only for the CD-Check.
7 - CD-Key, and CD-check. But you dont need the CD when running the game in the drive. Only for the CD-Check.
8 - Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
9 - Standart DRM, CD-Check, copy-check. Almost Invisible to Original copy players.
10 - Serial, copy-check, CD-Check. Light DRM.

Year of Launch, in case of compilation, referring to the earliest date of launch of the contained software:

1 - November 23, 2004
2 - September 14, 2004
3 - November 23, 2004
4 - July 8, 2008
5 - June 18, 2008 ? (not quite sure here, feel free to correct me)
6 - January 2, 1997 (i know it is a battlechest, but the first software there is over 10 years)
7 - July 2002
8 - January 16, 2007
9 - June 26, 2008
10 - November 6, 2007

My next conclusions won't be based on if a game is good or bad, that is a opinion. And opinion can generate stupid discussions.
Ok, after checking this 3 lists we can conclude the following points.

• Low DRM games, or invisible DRM games sell better and for longer.
• Games can have a bigger life cycle than just 6 months.
• PC gamers go towards multi-player games or with multi-players capabilities.
• PC gamers don't like high-end, cutting edge, TAXING graphics engines.
• With Blizzard dominating the charts, Self-publishing developers might be a evolution in Gaming.
• The Majority of PC Gamers like to buy their games in the traditional distribution.
• PC Gaming is alive and well, because if it was not, we would seen only recent games in the TOP 10. Meaning only a core of gamers would buy. Having games that span through the years in the TOP 10 means that PC Gaming is almost opened to anybody that have a PC.

This is more or less a factual discussion.

If you going to say Crysis didn't sell much, we can see why. It has a high-end taxing engine.
If you going to say Assassins Creed didn't sell much, we can see why. It doesn't have multi-player
If you going to say Bioshock didn't sell much, we can see why. It has heavy DRM.

Mates, im gonna add more to the discussion later (this will be a long post), but most distributors complain about their games not selling is because they are not listening to the consumer. Or not listening enough.

I'm sure that many of you remember MechWarrior, it came in several flavors and required the disk to play, I still have MW4 Vengence and Mercenaries and Black Knight exp, I never saw a NoCD patch for the game and you couldn't use Alcohol or Daemon tools to emulate the disk, so what happened to the rest of the gaming world, was that the last game that got it right- heaven forbid

I do agree with you, but that is the sample available. I guess the list would change alot, but we would still have more or so the same scenario. I wanted basically trace a scenario, and i had a sample, flawed, like all samples.

It is just a sample, but i "think" it was enough to get some conclusions. But if anybody could get more hard numbers, hell, would be great.

Edit: With more numbers it would be excelent. More conclusions could be taken, and explaining why some games just don't sell. Ive we mixed the numbers and made 2 TOP10 or a TOP20 i can assure you that we would have a handful of surprises.

radnor,

it seems name effect in here.. 4 out of 10 is warcraft relate, half of top ten list is make by blizzard. now, everyone know blizzard is AAA company by now so they got less worry about craapy game. also when you play warcraft RTS, its much easier to got hack on WoW, after that is the WoW exp.

also you forgot to say is price.. battle chest is 29.99 and come with complete set of multiple game + exp. its damn good deal! as blizzard battle chest its like 3~4 AAA title in one box.

i dont think more ppl buying blizzard becuz it got less DRM, but more due to price.
lets put me as example.. i play warcraft2 since kali day (oldest TCP/IP internet gaming network) after few years i want to play warcraft2 again as retro.. but i lost the original floppy disk. what i did? i go out and buy that 29.99 battle chest with update gaming network (battlenet). would i done the same if the battle chest is 59.99?? very unlikely.

there also big factor pc vs console.. with pc normal you play in small monitor which mean you play alone. but console is in large TV set which mean you play with family and friends. ppl would more likely to buy console game becuz can they share the fun with other.

also.. i dont think MMO is the reason why TW dont product single player game.. its more due to over production of H game. H game make way more $$$ and cost alot less. the only problem is there no quality in it.

I didnt buy bioshock or mass effect and I didnt download them either, do to DRM on both . So there is two games that bioware lost sells the legal way!!! Just because of the nazis style DRM's out I dont buy games on release day anymore I wait for the reviews of people who bought them