Second Take: Did Piracy Kill Iron Lore? - Page 3

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You're just arguing semantics. The "license" doesn't cost the game company a dime. If I make a copy of the game on my hard drive, or 100 copies on my hard drive, I'm not costing the company any more money than they already spent to make the game/market it/put physical copies on the shelves. Your argument is ridiculous.

Here's where you make a more valid point, as you ARE using the company's bandwidth without paying for the service. A more accurate analogy of violating copyright without stealing would be making your OWN WoW server for your friends to connect with their pirated clients. Again, I refer you to my hard drive file copying analogy.

I hear this thrown around a lot but I've yet to see some real hard numbers supporting this. Furthermore, I'd be interested in knowing what % of the "PC gaming audience" would have purchased the game in the first place if the ability to pirate it didn't exist. I'll give you an example: I'm a web designer, and from the age of about 11 on I used pirated software (flash, fireworks, photoshop, all that good stuff). The thing is, if I didn't have the ability to pirate it, I would have never used it in the first place as I was a kid and those programs are expensive. Go a step further and I'm now working for a large company where I had a say in what software they purchased for me, and I chose the software I was forced to pirate as a young kid. My point is this: a lot of people who pirate do it simply because it's a free option (which for a young kid it might be their only option). However, you get someone into using your product, be it software, a game, or whatever, when they actually have money later on they just might be one of your biggest fans/customers. Again, I'm comparing games to another industry for an example, I know it's a bit different but my point still stands.

I admit that there are some people out there who are simply going to pirate games because they can, and if the option wasn't there then they'd end up paying for them instead. That's why companies need to beef up security to a certain extent. It might just be easier to spend $50 on a game you really like rather than going through the process of cracking it and trying to get it to work on multiplayer. But at a certain point (when it costs more than it makes the company), it's no longer worth it for them to make a game any harder to crack, but that's a whole other can of worms. Companies also need to focus more heavily on multiplayer if they want them to be successful in the PC gaming market. Multiplayer games are way harder to pirate, and also have the highest amount of replayability since you have this new dynamic element you've introduced (other people! yay!). For me, I've found that, with the exception of a few select titles (Fallout 1 and 2, Escape from Butcher Bay), single player games just aren't worth that kind of money for only a few hours of entertainment.

People need to accept the fact that not everyone pirating would have been a customer in the first place, and if you're just genuinely upset that some punk is playing your game for free even though it didn't cost you anything, all I really have to say is, well, get over it. Some day he might actually give a **** about you and your company and he might just pay for a game, or he might not. Either way, all you can do as a company is make quality products and give gamers the ability to really experience what you make, so you can prove to them that your product is worth $50 (or more, ex: monthly fees).

Every theater I've been to in my area (Ventura County, CA) lets you leave the movie part of theway into it and get a refund. Obviously you'll have a tough time convincing them to give you your money back if you sat through the whole thing (like our good friend previously in the thread who played all the way through Crysis before deciding he didn't like it).

You are full of it..

http://www.mininova.org/search/Call+of+Duty+4/3

Add all the numbers up on the two pages you can find.. Add them up ALL OF THEM.. Even couters in the bottom of the screen.. numbers for what ever .. if you see a number ANYWHERE on the page add it up EVEN the numbers telling you how large the files are.. and you still will not reach 180,000 times..

If you did any digging you would find that the number of people that DOWNLOADED the DEMO via the Torrents.. is the SAME exact number of people that Downloaded the Cracked Game VIA Torrents... 16,000


90% of those files are not even the GAME.. but hacks for the game.. maps.. etc..

Jesus ...debunked in 2 minutes...let me guess.. you are some industry insider too..

Greetings!

Rduke, calm down, its not my fault you cant do a proper torrent search.

The numbers for the more popular CoD4-PC "releases" from Mininova (includes a Spanish one and no crack or map files):
35,049 + 20,871 + 28,739 + 77,633 + 10,271 + 20,483 + 9,746 + 23,349 = 226,141

Now imagine all the other torrent sites, other P2P technics, other "releases" and the traditional piracy.

It's not ridiculous, Ohhsnap. It's the way software is sold. You're buying a license that gives you the right to play the game. For someone who's accusing me of arguing semantics, you are truly hung up on establishing a difference between "copying" or "file-sharing" and "stealing" or "theft" (which is a common trait among the friends I have who pirate regularly). Why is that?

And yes, it is costing a developer more money. If you copy the game and put it on a torrent for thousands of people to download, they're losing money because you are enabling people to illegally obtain a product that they didn't pay for. You are depriving the developers of their money by ripping off their hard work without paying a dime. Why is this so hard for people to see? Think of it this way: I work at Tom's Hardware, and sadly, our articles are frequently poached (i.e. copy and pasted by other sites and forums) all the time. You may think to yourself, hey, what's the big deal, they're not stealing anything, plus THG doesn't charge anything to visit the sites. But instead of getting those page impressions and visitors to our sites, they're going to other sites to the read the content. So we lose traffic, and as a result, we potentially lose ad revenue and that adversely affects our business (this is one of many reason's I'm sensitive to copy protection, BTW).

Please understand, Ohhsnap, my approach here isn't to make you or any other person who downloads games out to be a immoral criminal. My intent is to show that piracy is hurting PC gaming. Under the pirate's way of doing business, games would be free unless the user decides the game is great enough to actually shell out money for it. But even the argument that pirates pay for the great games doesn't work because even great games are being downloaded illegally. Is Infinity Ward using piracy as a scapegoat? Why would they do that? CoD4 is a huge seller, even on the PC. So what's their motivation for claiming piracy has hurt sales on the PC?

The fact of the matter is, making PC games is incredibly expensive. In fact, budgets for major games can cost millions of dollars. The PC gaming industry cannot be supported if a siginificant portion of its audience is playing the games without paying for them.

Nope, completely and totally wrong in every sense of the word, and I'm going to have to shut you down.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between COPYING and TAKING? Here's an example:

You have two objects in your possession: a ball and a piece of paper with the numbers "010101" written on it. I take your ball, and I also have my own piece of paper where I copy your string of numbers "010101" on it. Now, you're left without a ball, but you still have your piece of paper with numbers on it. Do you honestly not see the difference? Is it really that difficult to understand? Now, I go outside and let 1000 people copy the phrase "010101" onto their own pieces of paper. No doubt you spent a lot of time writing down that string of numbers in the first place, and you also run a service where you sell your own pieces of paper with it pre-written on them. In your eyes, I've STOLEN from you? No. It's presumptuous (and quite a hilarious indication of how a lot of game companies think so highly of their own products) that you would assume that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people who copied that string of numbers would have purchased one of your own printed pieces of paper had it not been available. Even if this was so, your argument holds no water, no matter how large you make the tank. You're stating that the distribution of copyrighted material is stealing because it's going to a LOT of people, but you still don't understand the difference between a single person STEALING property and DUPLICATING it.

You also don't seem to understand the difference between a failing investment and stolen revenue. If I start my own business and invest a large amount of my own money, and then I don't have enough customers to make back enough to cover my initial investment, I don't get to claim that someone STOLE that initial investment. They chose not to support it, and I took a risk and lost. If a company invests $2,000,000 in a game and only makes $1,500,000 back because no one bought their game (because they simply chose not to buy it, or decided to play a pirated version), it doesn't mean that they STOLE that initial investment. The company put it forward, it didn't turn out how they wanted, and they lost.

Your analogy is also poor because you still don't understand the difference between preventing someone from purchasing the game vs. allowing someone to copy the game. If I steal a game off the shelf, not only did I not pay for it, but I also have prevented someone from buying that same copy of the game. I care so much about the correct wording because I hate seeing the industry assume that they're somehow entitled to making back their investment. They're not. Every business takes chances, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you can't just claim that someone STOLE your investment because they choose not to pay you for something.

However, you bring up the example of you posting articles on your site, and someone copying that article and posting it on their own. This isn't a great example, but essentially I could read the article on either site for "free". Say, however, that they DON'T have ads on their site and you DO. I've chosen to not deal with your ads in favor of reading the same article, ad free. However, I haven't STOLEN the article from you, I simply chose not to support your initial investment of time (spent writing the article, working on your site, getting advertisers) and money (paying for the server, designers, maintenance, etc.). If anything, by reading your copied article on ANOTHER website I've actually done you a service compared to say, using Adblock for Firefox (which I do use), because at least I'm not using your bandwidth. You're still in full possession of your own article which you worked on, and on your own website and server which you made an investment on. It didn't work out for you, tough break. However, say that person that copied your article is actually making money off of their own advertisements on their site. In that case, you are entitled to whatever they earn as a result of using your copyrighted material. That's all it means -- you're entitled to any earnings associated with your work. You aren't entitled to making back your initial investment from people who simply may not have ever considered paying for it in the first place.

Now if I went to, say, Blizzard HQ and physically copied over the game files AND THEN DELETED THEM from their system so they no longer had the game, that would be STEALING. The company paid their programmers for their work, they paid for the distribution and marking of the game to get it on the shelves, but in reality, they are still in full possession of everything they paid for, they just didn't make the profit they feel they're entitled to.

If I have a for sale sign on my car and some guy walks up to it, takes a look at it, pulls out a wand and *DING!* he's duplicated my car, gets in it and drives off, he COPIED it, he didn't STEAL it, regardless of how many hours or how much money I may have spent fixing the car up in order to sell it. When I steal something from you, I'm making something of yours mine and making it no longer yours. It's no longer in your possession. When I copy something, I'm making something of yours mine, but you still have yours too. Can you really even argue this any further? I'm simply amazed my initial point obviously didn't make it clear enough for you, especially for someone who's supposed to be so adept at reading comprehension.

And on another note, I find it quite funny that you're trying to defend the term "stealing" by justifying it with the idea of licenses. It's rather audacious to state you're selling the right to use a given product, and then turn around and say everyone using it without your permission is stealing. I'm selling the right to drive my used Ford Taurus, so that guy who used his magic wand to duplicate has surely stolen it! Wrong, he simply isn't paying me for something that didn't cost me any additional money beyond my original investment

I'm not arguing that the ability to pirate games isn't detrimental to the success of the PC gaming industry. Under their current business model and the huge investments they're making in order to produce these games, combined with how easily one can pirate a game, there's no doubt that a lot of the smaller companies are destined to fail, although the exact extent of the piracy's effect isn't known, it's only estimated. Companies have had it there way for a long time, and it's upsetting when things change and they're no longer in complete control of "licenses." Before, they could guarantee that the sale of said licenses would make up for their investments, and as time grew, so did the initial investments, assuming that the number of sales would also follow. Then, file-sharing came into the picture, and now in order to survive, they either have to fight file-sharing with more sophisticated copy prevention, or change their model in order to succeed in this new environment. What model is that? I really don't know, I'm not an expert, all I know is that the water's getting thicker so they're going to either have to swim a lot harder or find another way to keep afloat.

Your assumptions and lack of information regarding this issue is terrible and offensive.. I suggest you do some actual research into what we are talking about .. other then going by idiots like Micheal Fitch..

THE ANALOGY I USED REGARDING RAPE, BLACKS, WHITE WOMAN AND CANNABIS IS FRACKING TRUE...

Those exact words were said on the floor of the senate, as well as "A black man smoking the vile plant marihuana would cause him to look at a white woman.. TWICE!" and my personal favorite "A black man under the influence of the pychosis enducing plant with roots in hell marihuana would actually step... on a WHITE MANS SHADOW!!"

That and many other LIES IS A MAJOR REASON WHY THE SENATE MADE CANNABIS ILLEGAL IN 1937!

Ever heard of that???

Think if the same arguments were made today we would arrest 1 million people a year for possession of a plant??

(which is more then we arrest for all other crimes combined..btw)

Actually yeah.. and you did .. By quoting that tards vague and stupid information of 70-80%.. you are throwing even more then numbers..

You are throwing percentages.. 70-80% of WHAT number???

Of the Population of people who play video games in the US?.. So how much is that exactly???

How many households own PC's?? Macs?

200,000,000 ?... 150,000,000??? 50,000,000?? 20,000,000??. 10,000,000?? 5,000,000?? So 70-80% of that are people pirating?>!?!?!

LMAO.. comon now..

Yes you did.. I gave you credit for that.. However once again.. 50% of what?.. And 50% is way too high.. Think about how many people that is.. and go look at the amount of trackers... No where near .2-4% maximum world wide..

And most torrents are used for TV shows.. and movies.. but mostly TV shows.

Because the situation is blown out of proportion and being made a scapegoat.. when it is not responsible or anywhere near as large as you claim...

There are NOT that many people using Torrents.. It is a very small minority.. and yet.. "industry insiders" are so whacked out of their brains .. they are blowing it to immense proportions.. 30% 50% 60% 80% 90% .. Why not just say 140%.. it is just as wrong as the rest of your information...

It is madness.. you can share my experiances as well.. go LOOK at the numbers that are LIVE right now..

Thats what makes my opinion more valid..

When looking at Pirate Bay numbers.. and you saying what you said regarding looking deeper..

That seriously exposes your ignorance on this subject..

The Pirate Bay numbers .. ARE the numbers.. The numbers are Universal.. The Pirate Bay happens to be one of the largest.. most well known and best of all the torrent tracker sites.. however going to any of the others will simply yield lower numbers if any...

So TPB numbers there are also most accurate.. They are not hyper inflated.. the Trackers are real and the numbers once again are accurate.

Go look..

Oh and another group of pure scum that download games are the ones who CHEAT at the game in online play..

They usually have a valid copy.. and a valid key.. but will not cheat with that copy as they do not want to lose their ability to play the game..

So they use a cracked copy... as many of the people who SELL hacks and so forth will provide them with key-gens as well.. as part of the service.. they will also provide them with methods and ways in order to remove hardware bans and so forth..

They are a real scourge of people in the pc gaming community...

However.. their numbers are also very small..

No

Yes

No I would fire them. And I would fire them if they produced shoddy work.. as their shoddy work is going to put me out of buisness.

I would and while I see what you are saying.. and I see the point you are trying to make.

Something is seriously disconnected in what you are saying...

Evidence in light of how you failed to comprehend Ohsnaps point.

And then the best you have is to ask some generic questions that get no where near to the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak, and my thoughts seem to scatter, but I think its about forgiveness Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don’t love me anymore!!


DAMN YOU DON HENELY!!!

Ohsnaps didn't have a point because it was based on nonsense. There was an attempt to justify pirating via duplication because somehow it isn't stealing but the use of a piece of paper with no value has no relation to supplying legally protected products or services for people to purchase. I see the point he was trying to reach but it is invalid without logical support. He has a serious lack of how intellectual property is treated legally.




"The copyright infringement of software (also known as software piracy) refers to several practices when done without the permission of the copyright holder:

* Creating a copy and/or selling it. This is the act that some people refer to as "software piracy". This is copyright infringement in most countries and is unlikely to be fair use or fair dealing if the work remains commercially available.

* Creating a copy and giving it to someone else. This constitutes copyright infringement in most jurisdictions."


So my point about the work...everyone that is sane expects to get paid for their work in one way or another. If you don't get paid you aren't going to work. I wouldn't and you know that you wouldn't either. So how can you justify that game developers shouldn't be paid for their work? By making copies of a game, you not only are partaking in copyright infringement, you are not compensating them for their work as well. Do you expect them to keep developing then? You wouldn't because you already agreed that you wouldn't work for free.

Then when Steam goes out of business for whatever reason and you have no software on media, what do you have?

I really don't know in their case, but there've been similar things that have folded in the past and it didn't go well for users.

Sigh...

You seriously are missing the details.. and that is the problem..

Once again we are at the paradox of the paradigms...

Of course people should be paid for their work... However if people do **** work... how can they expect to be paid for it??

The designers, coders, graphic artists, etc.. are all PAID for their work..

If they do sub-par work ... Then guess what.. They fail!..

What you and the majority of the folks who think like you do not understand is the power that is now available to them...and how much faster it can be taken away...

Once again.. as it does not seem that you people are reading what I am saying.

Like in the restaurant business.. Word of mouth is VITAL for the success or failure of a computer game.

However even a successful game is not a guarantee for success in business... And the first rule of any successful business when they start is that .. NO MATER WHAT.. THE CUSTOMER IS KING!

Case in point... One of the best games ever made.. FALLOUT and its creator and publisher Interplay & Black Isle.

Interplay made some of the greatest software to ever flow through a circuit board... Their games created a RABID following that exists even stronger today then it did when the games were first made!!! They made some bad BUSINESS decisions.. racked up too much debt.. and had to fold and is only by the grace of the EXCELLENT game they created able to come back into business.. and hopefully development once again!!

How they did that is by selling the FALLOUT license to Bethesda.

That is right.. The FAN Base for the GAME was so devout.. and so adamant about having a genuine 3rd installment to the Fallout cannon.. that Bethesda purchased the rights and got Interplay out of the hole.

The King Wins... The King saved Interplay

Because Interplay made a quality product over 10 years ago that we loved... they did a good job.. and they are getting PAID for that.

There was Piracy then too.. In fact it was probably more rampant then as more people per capita were committing it as there were more people that actually understood computers owned them.. Unlike today where almost everyone who owns a computer today needs to have a service person put RAM into a board for them!.. *snicker*

Piracy is not the point...

Producing quality products are...

Besides the fact that Piracy in gaming software is such a small segment of the market.. why don't you go do some research.. talk to a couple of thousand people.

Go download Team Speak.. go download Ventrillo.. install both then go from server to server and ask the participants in the server if they would mind if you asked a few questions. And ASK them.. Ask gamers.. the very people that are most likely the ones who would be PIRATES!

You will certainly find a bunch that have downloaded.. of this there is no doubt

Ask them if they have ever downloaded a game, found it lacking in taking up any of their entertainment TIME and MONEY.. and they promptly deleted it.

Then ask them if they told anyone else about that negative encounter with that particular game and warned them to not buy it.

Ask them if they have ever downloaded a game ...loved it .. then purchased it.

Then ask them if they ever told anyone else about the positive encounter with the game ... and told others to purchase it!

You will hear ... 4 yes answers.

I am making it a point to ask all the gamers I come in contact with those questions... Let me tell you .. my finger is on the pulse...

PIRACY Does not kill Companies.. It actually HELPS companies!

Bad Software kills companies... Piracy makes that happen FASTER!

No updates and lack of support ...kills companies!

Piracy is a scapegoat for the weak.. and a boom for the strong.

@Jalek
I don't think Valve will be going anywhere for a long time. And if PC gaming completely dies, then where are we? Digital content distribution solves a lot of problems, and so far I have had no complaints with Steam.

No disc = no hassles in my experience. I always make images of my discs and play with those anyway, so Steam makes my life much easier.

A whole lot. There is a difference though. Stardock made a slight mistake with their distribution. There are some western countries (i.e. Australia) where the game is not sold or was not sold until a few weeks after it's release because stardock didn't find a publisher/distributer willing to sell it for their price. You can easily confirm that by checking their forums.
The trouble with gamers is, they can't wait - well, at lest if the screaming and moaning, that takes place if a game is delayed or is buggy, is an indicator.
Now with rampant piracy they have almost immediate access to it, just like people in countries where it was released. In this case it might be especially harsh since it's even the same language. Once the game gets distributed in a country where pirating is rampant, a good chunk of those that pirated it and liked it, will buy it for it's low price and for the patches that stardock distributes. Sure, some black sheep won't buy it, but a whole lot of them downloaded it, didn't like it and trashed it anyway - they are not even possible customers.
Someone might argue, why didn't they wait, why didn't they get the demo? Well, the pirates offer the better service. The demo is free, as is the pirated version of the game. Why wait if it can be downloaded right away?
And a digital distribution is not nearly as effective as selling a box with a dvd. To many pirates a download is worth nothing. While some can wrap their head around digital distribution, a lot of them won't and will stick with a box, a manual and a DVD.
I think stardock should have delayed the game launch a little to make sure the game has a solid distribution. Then again, some of those pirates will turn into customers once the game is distributed in their area so the loss won't be too big.

I love your assumptions of 3/4 success... you have much experiance using torrents?

You understand that trackers go down???

You understand that a whole lot of people simply shut their computers OFF after trying to download a 6 gig file and only having 4% after 6 days..

Any of these things getting through?

p2p.. lol theres a riot.. There would be no way to monitor that... and I am sure way more people use that then use torrents.. although torrents when properly configured are faster and more reliable.. they are still not an ideal setup..

170,000 MY ASS!

However if your super sleuthing is factually correct.. and the GAME is awesome.. that 170,000 could become 340,000 SALES .. VERY EASY!

sigh.. That is irrelevant..

As depending on the game or not they will need a key gen to install it..

HOWEVER.. if they attempt to use the real draw to the game.. THE MULTIPLAYER.. they should (if the developer is not totally stupid).. get a guid key run to them.. rendering their ability to download updates and connect to the real meat of the game impossible.

AGAIN.. I repeat.. it does not MATTER what site you are getting your information.. YOU CANNOT ADD THE FRIGGEN NUMBERS@!!@<!@<ER#<W#REKLtgjiop

FFS LISTEN TO ME FOR A SECOND!@@@#@

Trackers are TRACKERS.. NO SITE OWNS THEM>>>THE TRACKERS YOU FIND ON MININOVA ARE THE SAME ON THE PIRATE BAY!.. SOME SITES LIST MORE .... SOME LESS... MANY OF THEM ARE THE SAME EXACT TRACKER DUPLICATED!...YOU CANNOT GO FROM SITE TO SITE AND ADD THEM ALL UP!~!!~~~~!@!

GET THIS THROUGH YOUR SKULL!@!!

I AM TRYING TO EDUCATE YOU AND YOU ARE FAILING BIG TIME!

I must of written a damn BOOK in this thread and you (not just you) people are not paying attention.. Same pathetic mistakes in understanding the basic principals outlined over and over.. Same inane nitpicking of analogies that reference historical events that happened.. yet the offended is totally ignorant of historical factual event ...while he may very well cheer while people get dragged off for that absurd violation... but hes offended..

Plus.. missing the whole point of using piracy how 96.566% of all gamers that I know.. Which trust me is a large number of people... and as you can see I am not shy about asking questions and stating opinons.. So I have been talking to gamers all night.. so far I have talked to 23 directly regarding this issue..

SO FAR .. the EXACT SCENARIO I HAVE ESTABLISHED HAS BEEN CONFIRMED BY EVERY SINGLE GAMER I TALKED TO !!!

What I .. and the other obvious gamers laid out.. about how WE use Torrents to JUDGE a game .. to see if it is WORTH our TIME and MONEY ..

IF IT IS GOOD THEN WE BUY IT..and TELL OTHERS!!..

OR ..

IF IT SUCKS DOG ASS.. WE DELETE IT .. and TELL OTHERS TO STAY AWAY!!!


WTF.. why are you all so DENSE!??!

It is cranial density akin to what you "BLAME PIRACY!" are exhibiting .. that causes companies to FAIL!

---

Also.. Outside of GAMING .. in the REALLY REAL WORLD..

THE ECONOMY SUCKS!!

IT IS GETTING WORSE!!!

IT IS NOT GOING TO GET BETTER!!!

ENTIRE INDUSTRIES ARE GOING TO FRIGGEN COLLAPSE!!

BLAME PIRATES!!!

REMAIN OBLIVIOUS!


"Daddy.. why are you typing at the keyboard so hard?"

"Because Daddy is type yelling"

"Why are you yelling??"

"Because these people don't listen .. and I have to keep repeating myself over and over.. "

"Why don't they listen?"

"Because they don't understand what is happening .. and it frightens them...the more it frightens them..the more they do exactly what they should not ... and the more they ensure their own extinction.."

"Like the dinosaurs"

"Yes honey.. exactly like the dinosaurs..."

"Silly people"

"LOL .. Yes they are, you want some pancakes?"

"Yaaaaaaah pancakes!!"

It has become apparent to me through reading this thread that the PC gaming audience is a complete anomaly.

Apparently given the option the mass majority of PC gamers would choose to pay for something that they don't have to. Which makes complete sense as no one in this thread seems to have any concern for the money they spend. The idea of $50 being a mass amount of money has not come up even once. The concept of video games being expensive has yet to come up. Nor has there been any mention of increasing non-gaming related pressures on people's income and expenses. Such a power spending group the PC gamers are that high end hardware requirements are never a problem as all of our machines straddle the bleeding edge of technology.

So obviously the correct business model for THG is to start charging a sizable subscription fee. However, in order to increase sales they need to publish all content to my free website www.claytonpiratesTHG.com. This way users will be able to get a taste of every bit of content on my website and be hopelessly hooked on the original THG and want to spend their money to see the same content again. The only caveat is that they must continue to support their website by offering updated spelling and grammar checks on all content, which I will then receive for my site a week after their release.

Rob you need to ride this new paradigm right to the top of the Forbes list. Since I'm a reasonable guy all I will charge for my services is that you send me all of the new hardware you guys rate as excellent products.

Some games have patches or workarounds for new OS. For others, there's allways multi-boot, DOSBox, VMWare...

Rob, look at the ESA numbers. The number of sales in PC and Video games has been essentially stable since 2002. The market has shifted away from PC towards consoles. Where's the sudden dip in total sales due to piracy? Has everyone's disposable income increased so much that the total sales should be 2 or 3 times higher? I call bullshit on that.

Go to half price books and check out what is there. When I see games shunted there for 8 dollars and they are less than a year old maybe it is less about piracy and a more fundamental change in gaming. Piracy is a major problem, but there is a lot more to it.

What? Actually it makes perfect sense and it's an accurate analogy. What's on the paper, or if it's even a piece of paper is irrelevant. If you really don't like that one, take my "car for sale" analogy instead. You're disregarding my argument without actually stating why it doesn't make sense. In this analogy, the "010101" would be the piece of software, and the piece of paper would be a hard disk/computer. I'm copying his software onto my computer, without removing the software from his own computer. It's a fairly simple concept and quite frankly I'm surprised you don't seem to understand it.

Good, I'm glad we agree that the "whatever it is he's selling" object in my analogy is meaningless. It could be a walrus with spraypaint on his back and the point would remain the same. Meanwhile, you're getting hung up on the analogy as if the objects are to be taken literally, rather than in context and comparison. I really can't help you any further if you don't seem to understand that, sorry.

Actually, it's function is also irrelevant. For the sake of the analogy, it's to be assumed that everyone simply wants it because they enjoy having/using/looking at it. The vast majority of video games serve no purpose beyond entertainment. Again, you're getting hung up on aspects of the analogy that are actually quite irrelevant and you're missing the actual point I was making.

What? You're focusing on irrelevant points in my analogy and taking them literally, and ignoring my real argument. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Okay.

Obviously not.

Yes, IF we had made a verbal or written agreement where I was told I would be compensated for my hours worked. Your analogy is broken, and unlike you, I'm actually going to explain why.

1. If there is an agreement to compensation (i.e. You interview for the job, I tell you you're hired and from this point until the end of your employment, I will compensate you for all hours worked) then all parties are entitled to what's stated in the agreement. In this case, you're entitled to being compensated for the time you work.

2. If there is no agreement to compensation, then no one is entitled to any time spent working. The only thing you're entitled to is your own work.

3. Companies are not our employees, they are making investments. When a company decides to create a product, they're making the investment of paying their programmers, marketing, production, etc. to get the products on the shelves, and they are doing so without any prior agreement to compensation. Simply put, this means that they are only entitled to their own work. THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THE SUCCESS OF THEIR BUSINESS. THEY MADE AN INVESTMENT.

I would be required to compensate them based upon what our initial agreement was. If I agreed to compensate them for hours worked, I would be required to do so. If it was project based, and they didn't do any work, I wouldn't have to pay them a dime. Plus, either way I would end up firing them.

Yes, because in both cases there would be an initial agreement between both parties. In these example (you are the employee, and I am the employer), I agree to pay you for all your hours worked, and you agree to do the work I assign you. This is our agreement. If 1) I do not pay you for your work, I have broken my end of the initial agreement, or 2) you do not follow through with the work I assigned you, you have broken your end of the agreement. HOWEVER, say you come work for me and you and I agree that you will only be paid if I'm happy with your work, then all the time you invest will be simply that, an investment, IN THE HOPES that I'm happy with your work. If you spend 40 hours working, but we have had no agreement from the beginning that I will compensate you for your hours spent, and I end up not happy with your work, you are not entitled to ANYTHING. Figure it out.

Actually I'm basing my argument entirely on logic. Everything I've said thus far has been logical, as far as I can tell, and have tried to keep emotion out of it. I'm not backed into a corner, and I'd be glad to discuss compensation labor further, as in my field, I've dealt with various different agreements of compensation. I also understand business, and the most important point I can try to emphasize to you is that these businesses are making investments, and when you invest, you're taking a risk, nothing is guaranteed.

Here. Let me give you a new analogy, elaborating on the one I made in another one of my posts.

Let's say I decide I'm going to make and sell cars. I open my own business, start making cars, and begin selling them to people. For a while, my business is successful, until one day I notice people start showing up to my car lot with weird looking devices in their hands. They begin walking up to the cars I've made, move the shiny metal devices over them, and then a few feet away on the street, a carbon copy of my cars appear out of thin air. These people walk over to these newly created cars, get in them, and drive off.

Let's break this down:

First off, there's no guarantee that these people who came to my lot with these magical devices would have purchased a car in the first place. They may have just been there to simply duplicate my cars, and wouldn't have shown up otherwise. So even though I'm not making money from these people, they're not TAKING money or property AWAY from me.

Second, I still own everything I've paid for. I initially paid the factory workers to produce these cars, and as such, these cars are now mine. They belong to me. However, the duplicated cars, although exactly the same as my own cars, didn't require any additional time, effort, or money for me to create. As such, even though I created the idea and design for these cars, those physical cars didn't cost me anything to make/produce.

Finally, my business might be failing now thanks to these magical car duplication devices. However, that doesn't mean that these people are stealing my cars, they're duplicating them. Some people might be using the duplication devices instead of purchasing cars from me, while others might simply be using them because they exist, and if they didn't have them, they still wouldn't end up purchasing a car. There's no way to tell for sure who would do what if these devices didn't exist. However, my failing business is a direct result of my investment failing to make returns in a market where my "tried n' true" business model simply does not hold water any longer. I chose to continue to pay my factory workers to produce cars, and I still own the cars they've produced for me. I'm entitled to nothing further.

Is it right what they're doing? According to the law, no it's not. However, there's a new word for what they're doing, since they're using my intellectual rights without my permission. It's called copyright violation, and it's vastly different from stealing. Say those people went out and then sold their duplicated versions of my cars, then I would be entitled to that money because someone is making a profit from my own idea. That's how it works, but please, please, PLEASE can we stop calling pirating software "stealing"?

My whole argument was basically that it is NOT THE SAME AS STEALING. Does it potentially hurt the industry? Yes. No question. If people dupe the cars for themselves, and it costs me nothing and they don't resell them for money, all they're doing is not supporting my business. That sucks, but in reality, if someone can duplicate something for free you can't really blame them, and there's no guarantee that anyone getting my product for free would have paid for it. However, when you have someone copying your product and then going off and selling it to someone else, it's probably pretty likely that the person buying the copied version would have bought mine (although this can be argued as well depending on price), so I'm entitled to that money.

I'm not defending piracy in every form. As I said, my own experience with piracy has been beneficial for those who create quality products, and detrimental to those who don't. I download games and software, delete the ones I don't like, and eventually pay for the ones I do. That means if you make a **** product, you're not getting paid for it. This form of "ethical" piracy IS positive for the industry because it weeds out the crappy game companies that are only out to make a buck and don't care if you like their product. Companies like Flagship Studios that market their new game with "From the makers of Diablo!", ignoring the fact that it's actually quite different (and inferior in terms of features, playability, storyline) to Diablo. Companies like that don't deserve to be in business because their business practice is, in essence, deceptive. When you focus more on marketing your game and less on creating a real, genuine, quality product, in my opinion I don't feel you're entitled to my money, but I'm also not entitled to continue using your product for free. I will play a game, and if it bores me or I hate it, I'll delete it, never to play it again, without wasting any of my money. Some argue that this is morally wrong, I feel that it's simply leveling the playing field and taking the companies' skewed marketing campaigns out of the question. No doubt other forms of piracy (i.e. NEVER paying for things you definitely WOULD buy if you couldn't pirate them) DO hurt the industry on every level (even for the quality game developers). There's no argument there. However, the real question is: to what extent?

And by the way I always end up adding more to my posts, but here's adding to the analogy:
Obviously if no one buys your cars anymore, you stop making new cars. But maybe the duplicated cars don't have ALL the features of the original cars, so if the quality of the car is really good, it might be worth just paying for an original. That might actually work for the car lot across the street that makes great cars, but your car company has been more focused on just getting the cars off the lot at all costs, so you've cut corners. Your thought is that it doesn't matter if people hate your car once they drive it off the lot, because you don't offer refunds. In this instance, I honestly feel like you deserve to fail and SHOULD stop making cars. The awesome car lot across the street doesn't though, and that's kind of a shame if piracy hurts them.

SIGH....

That effect.. is it has increased sales for certain titles... and vaporized for others..

Usually following the good verses suck trend.. it only negatively impacts sales when a piece of software sucks...

Thats its effect.

It speeds up the success or fail of a title.

PIRATING... is the hype machine...it is the great equalizer for the consumer...and thats good... Aww the software company wants to keep slopping out uninspired bat squeeze over and over again..(Which I think calling something that is a Greek mythology version of Diablo 2 is generous)... well they can, as long as they don't project that they are going to sell millions of copies...and put them on the shelf for 10 bucks..

I for one am glad that this company is gone... I hope a bunch of them follow as well.

Piracy playing a role... perhaps.. but that role is due to Piracy pulling back the covers and flipping the light switch on the copulating partner of the night...rendering the quality of what is laying in the bed the factor in whether or not money will be left on the nightstand in an hour or so.

Last year the console market had 3 brand new systems to sell... and you bet that cut into pc game sales.. just like wow did.

And should we start talking about what the economy has been doing and will be doing..and how that impacts PC game sales?

Or do you want to keep your heads in the sand on that too??

Noooooooooooo

We have been waiting for too long... Don't say that game is going to suck.. noooo


Leave Fallout Alone !!


Its not HUMAN!!!


---

I know what you mean... I hope it is only half of what I think off of us have been waiting for..(we are the hardest of hardcore fans... even Hunter S Thompson feared us..)

If Bethesda fails...and midway through the game I totally lose interest.. (as I did with Morrowind and Oblivion)

But this time if they do that to us on Fallout 3.. I will 'nuke' my disks.. and put up a post on No Mutants Allowed.. then I will send the disks to Bethesda..

I want to support Interplay.. and will let them know that the money was for having their heart in the right place.. but the disks were for failing.

....Oh please don't suck Fallout 3! ... Please Please Please...

I understood your argument Ohhsnap. I wasn't refuting it. I was merely trying to state that stealing or not it hurts the industry and cuts into profit margins in a real way. So to say that something isn't lost by the developers due to the pirating actions seems untrue to me.

The thing that I think gets left out a lot here is that you arn't simply copying a game for personal use in most cases on a torrent. You are copying it and then sharing it. So in effect instead of selling the copy to make money you are merely giving it away which in some ways is even worse. A torrent with thousands of seeds has more opportunities to be used without reimbursement to the developers and it looks more popular which generally means better in game terms.

A single copy for personal use would generally mean a fraction of a lost sale on average. A single copy that is then shared with others who share with others balloons into a significant amount of lost potential revenue. I doubt 70-85%, but if you read Fitch's message he makes some good points about what if it was only 10% or even 1% of actual lost sales.

Some companies already do something similar. Savage 2 had a trial version that lasted for 5 hours or 5 days I can't remember which. You had basically the full game to try out for a time. Then you decided if you wanted to buy it or not. Eve-Online is free for 14 days, then you can pay for continued use or ignore it.

Most game demos are pretty comparable to this though. They often cover the first act or chapter of a game or provide some segment of the game that is a pretty reasonable representation. Granted I've seen some demos that were not representative of the game, but as a whole a demo is generally a good indicator of the game. The demo for Fallout 2 was the first experience I'd ever had with the series. I immediately went out and bought the game and the first one after completing the demo. The demo showed exactly what the game was like without giving away anything in the story, which is perfect in my opinion.

What you are proposing here would be a bookkeeping nightmare. Transactions cost money. Refunds cost money. A company would eat up all of their profits paying their transaction fees and all of the manpower it would take to handle the refunds/sales. Right now they slap an MSRP on a product and ship it out to distributors. The open box policy is most likely a rule set by the selling entity as well.

bethesda IS going to ruin fallout 3.

You know it's true. VATS may be quite possibly the worst combat system ever implemented.

I hate to beat a dead horse here, but everyone knows when you've got yourself spread too thin amongst too many genres, you're always setting yourself up for failure.

Piracy to review is one thing, but if there is a demo then there is no excuse for piracy. If the developer hasn't given enough reason for you to buy the game after playing the demo then it probably isn't worth playing.

Demos are definitely must haves for games. If a demo can't work cleanly or effectively then I assume the game has the same problems. If the demo isn't for me I won't ever play the game again.

Quality first and while players may whine and get mad about the "When it is done" philosophy of Blizzard it sure as hell get me to buy their games. Blizzard is how the games industry should be run. No more Daikatanas, Ultima9s or Hellsgates.