Second Take: Did Piracy Kill Iron Lore? - Page 2

I'm sorry Rob but I feel that your view on this is slightly skewed because of your position in this. I wonder how many games you have purchased without getting a chance to play or had people close to you able to try before you had to pay for it.

People playing on cracked games cannot play on any legitimate servers which are also the servers with antihacks. There are huge benefits to buying a game over playing a cracked game, like poor cracks that cause the game to crash instead of running properly as well as updates and new content. Every single person playing on those cracked servers is either going to love the game enough to buy it or once they're copy gets disabled will never play it again.

Of course i cant say that pirating is right, but its the only option gamers have to test the product before they buy it. Every game will get pirated, Im not saying that they wont. Im saying, why should we throw our money blindly at these developers without being able to try it first? Thankfully some companies are starting to realize this and are releasing demos of their games, they just need to release them with the game instead of a month after.

That is a good point..

Rob how many games are you paid to review that are so awful that you almost feel you should be paid extra just to have to endure it???




Now picture all of us peasants out here who do not have games delivered to their door and get paid for it.

Actually.. I have to disagree.. as 1 pirated copy does not = a lost sale..

1 pirated copy of an excellent game can very well = + many sales..

and

1 pirated copy of a bad game can = - even more lost sales..

Its that whole law of customer satisfaction..

If someone is happy with a restaurant.. they will tell 5 people how good it was..

If someone has a horrid experiance with a restaurant.. they will tell 11 how bad it was...

EXACTLY!!!

Its Bupkiss!

Good games are helped with Piracy.. as long as the company does not abandon the game.. and Bad games are destroyed by piracy.. which is better for everyone..

This piracy scapegoating is nonsense.. Go look at the trackers on piratebay.... Those numbers are dwarfed by purchases of the game..

It is like being involved in a horrendous car accident.. having 3 limbs severed... face mangled.. ribs smashed and put into a coma for 5 years.. waking up and blaming a hang nail..

Its absurd...

Even more to the point.. you are exactly correct .. Interplay & Black Isle made some of the best games ever!!!... So good in fact that I am not even looking at any reviews for Fallout 3 by Bethesda.. I am just instantly buying it.. as it is Fallout!

And I am goo goo gaa gaa over it .. and thats where 50 bucks is going the second it comes out.. If It sucks.. well Bethesda is going to hear it.. as if I were to download a game find it awful I would certainly tell at least 11 or so people.. If I buy a game that I have been waiting for ...well for over 10 years.. and it is awfull...

My god I will tell Millions!!!

Interplay is back btw.. so I am also interested in seeing what Interplay has in store for the Fallout MMORPG..

And maybe an updated Planescape!!!


By Gamers.. .for Gamers... FTW!

Kinda sounds like Nvidia better start lowering prices, so we will have more money to buy games. I would have to spend $1000.00 so I could get my gaming computers to play the lastest games at 1280x1024 med settings. Guess that's not going to happen. I still DL games just so I know how far behind I am. I tried Crysis, but I kept throwing up because I get sick to my stomach with 8fps. If developers quit making PC game I'll save so much money not buying video card upgrades. Sorry Nvidia. Since we are pointing fingers, then I guess the price of gas has nothing to do with people's extra money. I spend atleast $100 more a month on gas for the last two years. That's close to 24 games that I could have bought. I think games lost to piracy might actually be closer to 10%. To help clarify myself. If piracy could be stopped, I think sales might rise 10% at best. People only have so much extra money and factoring in the price of gas and food over the past year, I'm amazed thing aren't worse.

Piracy is killing the PC gaming industry as we know it. That's a fact.

The sad details are different from what most people are made to believe though. The industry is fighting piracy by pouring gasoline into the fire. It works perfectly. Piracy has become big. There are different hacking groups, warez sites, DRM vendors, etc. all competing with each other, trying to get the "consumers" click or attention.

On one side we have the DRM software vendors. They try to improve the product for the publisher by embedding various methods to secure the product. By that they usually break various ISO norms or severly violate the consumers freedom. The consumer ends up with a product that forces his hand. I suppose everyone has had a game that didn't install because of a virtual DVD drive or an installed burning software like alcohol. Everyone has experienced a game stuttering because it had to check whether the original DVD was in the drive or if the daring consumer replaced it with a salami from the nearest supermarket. Most gamers have at some point forgotten to bring their original DVD to a LAN party. Most people have had a game crash/fail to start because of a badly implemented copy protection. I've had games that didn't even start without patching the copy protection (Evil Islands) or that ran badly because the copy protection checked for the original medium every 5ms (Armed Assault). The list goes on.
On the other hand we have the crackers/hackers that remove the copy protection and improve the product for the consumer, but make it available for everyone and for free - a horrible outlook for the publisher. While the hassle with the copy protection is gone, other nasty flaws show up. Patching a cracked game turns into a gamble. Will it work? Will it re-establish the copy protection? Will it mess up my game? Sometimes the crack does not work properly (Titan Quest - if it is true and not just an excuse). Some cracks are loaded with trojans or the odd virus. If the game doesn't work properly, the publisher won't handle support anymore since consumer uses modified files. The list goes on.

So in the end the consumer gets screwed by both sides of the pirate problem, at least to a certain degree, and must try to figure out the lesser of two evils. And, in case i didn't mention it, the consumer has to actually pay for it, too.

There are some nice people in both camps. There are hackers that do what they do just because they want to see if it can be done or because they feel the copy protection is a real hassle for the user. There are software engineers working on DRM software because they really believe that they can improve profits for the publisher.There are a lot of black sheep on both sides too though and their number is far greater. Hackers crack a game so they can publish it on a warez site, get some money for clicks or get paid by someone who burns and sells cracked games. The DRM companies are not any better. I still remember starforce staff posting links to a torrent site of a stardock product that was not copy protected. Obviously someone was angry because a publisher tried to offer a good product without starforces approval. And i am confident that there are quite some DRM specialists providing cracks to make the competition look bad.

Every time a hacker is caught, a copy protection is circumvented or doesn't work the press is buzzing about software piracy, DRM etc. Most will remember the Sony rootkit debacle. Or the endless law suits because of ripped dvds. Some might even remember the guy that was clubbed down because he was sporting the dvd encryption algorithm on his t-shirt which was illegal in his country? My point is, the industry around this piracy issues has evolved into a self-sustaining monstrosity. There are people being paid to make surveys about it. There are laywers doing nothing but hunting drm-offenders, be it a copied game or a downloaded movie.

90% of all PC gamers are criminals, at least that's what i'm told. While it seems shocking it makes me wonder. I mean, 90%. 90 percent. In a school class of 30 people 27 of them are criminals. Thugs. Rapists. Murderers. Well, and software pirates. Since 90% seems like a big chunk i can call it the majority. What I truly wonder about is not the majority, but the 10 other percent. The minority, that is not hacking games, modding it to include nudity, train for their next amok gig or eat little babies for lunch. What's wrong with them? Why can't they be like everyone else and steal software? Maybe they are too young or ride the short bus? Nope - it is safe to assume that everyone within that minority knows someone who steals software and thus has access to it. Be it the 8 year old girl playing Sims 2 or that 15 year old emo kid training for his great day at school with the r-rated shooter his brother bought. No, they all can get it free. Well, to be fair, there may be the odd guy living in the deepest depths of the congo, surrounded by crazy baboons, without an internet connection (or AOL), but thats's a rare oddity, probably less than 1%.
Based on that i can only conclude that either the 90% figure is totaly off or that the protection models implemented in the past were not only a failure, but increased piracy instead of preventing it.
What do i mean by totally off? The number of thiefs would have to be significantly lower. Even 40% would be way too much, because everyone would still know someone who could access pirated software. On the other hand the 90% suggests a majority of gamers. That would mean that pirating sofware is easy and available. That's actually true. All that is needed is an internet connection and a computer or someone else who meets that requirements. Everyone can download a p2p client, google for his favorite game and download it within a day or two. All that percentages are just fictious, but what they mean is not. It means stolen software is available to everyone looking for it. It means that the DRM doesn't prevent piracy, it only delays it. Actually it has some nasty side effects too. It promotes piracy by restricting the consumer, by making the product more expensive and by calling for the consumers attention if something goes wrong.

Now back to that religious minority that actually buys games. Why do they buy the games? It can't be fear of getting caught since it's more likely to be struck by a lightning than getting caught for stealing a computer game. There are several groups of people that buy games.
First there are games that are played online. World of Warcraft - it makes no sense stealing the game if you have to pay a monthly fee anyway. Then there are people that actually want to support the developers. A minority, but they really do exist. Damn weirdos.
Some people buy a game because they actually like it - despite the wicked protection mechanisms included. Sometimes a game can be as expressive as a poster or a music CD. Being a Quake player or owning Man Hunt can be a statement as personal and strong as a tattoo or a piercing with some people. Don't forget, we are talking about a minority here.
Last but not least are the political buyers. People that buy games because of their message and not because of their content. A dangerous bunch but i consider myself a member. I bought two games (Hearts of Iron Anthology/Galactic Civlizations 2) because they have no DRM and am about to buy another (Sins of a Solar Empire), not only because i like them, but also because neither of them comes with anything that bothers me.
To sum it up, the whole minorty chooses to buy those games despite all odds that speak against it. The publishers or developers have no control either way - the gamers choose whether to buy a game or not.
That brings us finally to the root of all evil. The publishers should stop to thing how to prevent people from playing their games but how to make it worthwhile for them to actually play them and in the end maybe even own them. If you look down the street it is not unlikely that there is not a single person living there that hasn't stolen a game or mp3, maybe ripped a DVD or watched a stolen copy at a friends house.

By trying to enforce strict copy protections and digital rights publishers willingly limit their market to a mere minority of possible customers. While they keep spouting about that they have to encode/secure and restrict because if they stop to, nobody will pay for their content, they comfortably ignore the truth. Whatever they offer is free for grabs whether they want it or not anyway. And it is a lie that every software pirate is a stealing free loader. I've seen black markets, well, let's call them flea markets, in Warsaw, Seville and other european cities where people actually buy pirated DVDs of games or movies. Even some policemen bought bought copied movies in spain. And the kicker is, they pay for it. Nope, they don't pay 50€ for a game or 20€ for a movie, but they are without a doubt willing to pay something.
The market has changed. Consumers have become a whole lot smarter and have a lot more choices. The competition has become a lot fiercer.
While the market changed, the income changed and the money consumers have to spend changed, somehow the pricing of the products has become worse. Games have always been expensive. Despite the growing number of computers sold. Setting the price and then selling a product does not work anymore. At least not in the computer industry.
Instead of clinging to an old and dying market model, the gaming industry needs to adjust. Putting harsher rules into place, embedding even more restricting protections and sacrificing more freedom of their customers to save their undead market model from well deserved extinction is not going to work.
It seems the fastest changing industry of the world is afraid of change.
If a game is made for an audience of maybe 200.000 players and each is willing to pay 5$ for a copy of it, then making a game that costs 3 Million dollars plus distribution and DRM look like a very stupid idea. Lowering the production costs of games that have no big market, cut out the DRM crap and pass the savings to the customers seem better.
If a gamer has a budget of 40$ and a game costs 60-80 he'll only be able to buy one every other month or so, making the competition a lot fiercer. If the game would cost 20$, said gamer could buy 2 games every month. The money that gamer spends gets spread a whole lot better. There won't be one super uber game and a bag of flops. Sure, there still will be games that won't sell. Those are the lousy games. No one goes to a movie that sucks badly either.
While game publishers have been moaning and crying about pirates reducing their cut, and computer game sales have declined, they should look at the total money spend on gaming instead of looking at how many games they sold. A single MMO account sucks up the budget two block buster games over the year.

Right now if mom of pa go out and buy a console game or pc game for 60$, they will, in most cases, spend some thought on it. If it costs only 20$ they won't. And lowering the prices isn't difficult at all. Put some ads in my gaming box, give me a McDonalds SplashScreen before the game starts (It may get hacked though), offer smaller addons for your games for little fees. Offer me some gaming posters or plastic toys. Put the manual on the Disk, but sell a seperate hardcover bound with hamster-leather for the super freaks that feel the urge. It is possible.
With lower cost and without harsh restrictions people will stop pirating. The gaming market doesn't even have to grow - it's already there but no one is willing to offer a product to those 90% that is reasonably priced and doesn't make their owners feel like being remote controlled. Some people will keep pirating because they always do, but they will switch places with what is todays minority.

Paradox Interactive, Stardock and some other companies have shown that it is indeed possible to offer cheap products without DRM and draconic restrictions. In addition consumers tend to be a whole lot more forgiving if their 20$ game has a bug compared to their 60$ major investment not working perfectly.
Moving to another platform will only work until the consumers catch up and then the pirates move in again. Once PC gaming is dead (i don't think that will happen) the trend we see now with PC gaming will repeat itself with the console market. And consumers will catch up once they see the opportunity and realize that the product, in this case a game, is not worth what they are paying.
Selling Grand Theft Auto IV for 70€ (roughly 100$)? I can get a hooker, three tickets for the movies, a happy meal and a box with 600 nails for that. That's though competition and that's where people turn to pirates.

Arrhh.


PS: Take this with a grain of salt. Better yet, just skip it and read something worthwile.

Slobogob, You may have the best grip on this matter than most I've seen.

Reminds me of a saying that has always (Well nearly) worked for me (and those around me)

-You'll catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

sorry ben n rob, negative

to be very fuxking honest, i didn't even get, no no no, i didn't even fuxking want the pirated version of this game, titian crap, LOL period, didn't even want to try, not even.

0% willingness to even bt to test, nor demo

i do pirate many games, and own many games, like all cs, all wc, all c & c, diablos, all bf, all unreal, all cod, and some nfs, and many other like fsx. anyway. these guys know what they are doing in terms of making a gg.

it is not about the player, it is about the game.

59.99 or 49.99 a game, how about 19.99 and 26.99 per game.
supply vs demand, and price, DIXK FACES THQ N IRON CRAP.

i did play diablo n diablo 2, THQ just never interests me, and millions of other people world wide, there are some great titles from them but Naaa, then what, you are going down, woooOoooo

ez as that, you are not up the game, then you are out, ARE YOU NEW? (of cause he ain't, he got a new job)

dont hate the players, hate the game
think before you open your mouth to claim, ain't nothing is right for you.

you re stealing the air which i am breathing, are you pirating my air right now? should i DRM my air? the hard working time which i had to try squeezing my lung to breath my air, and you STEAL IT!?

Ive never heard of this game, that is why it failed.

As for downloading torrents, I still download and buy music. Why? because when i buy a new cd i occasionally find it imposable to copy the cd to listen to it in my car
I also bought Bioshock but downloaded it to avoid the VERY STUPID activation crap, and can play without the dvd in now, great game BUY IT, even if the install cds never touch your computer.

The only games I download are really old and often the developer no longer exists to lose "potenial" money.

Don't worry Rob, the PC gaming industry isn't dead yet. Just take a deep breath and relax.

See, easy

Tell that to my 16yr old...., big ole 6'2", strapping blonde haired blue eyed boy addicted to them games, but I'm almost as bad so can't blame him....

Just to add to my previous post;

I still believe that piracy is always stealing, and if nothing else it augments the power of the community that actively pirates games. If a person's concerned over the quality of the game, then treat it the same as any other purchase, meaning: get opinions, gather information, check reviews, figure out if it's really worth your money. This is nothing new, most of us, if we're not dumb, have been doing this for years with many of the products we purchase.

I do believe that it is fair to point out that there are many companies that thrive amidst piracy. I think that the developers should be blamed for making garbage, being that I've played plenty of garbage, unsupported games myself and have been thoroughly frustrated. It is probably true that without piracy Iron Lore would have sunk anyhow. But to not blame piracy for the loss of revenue that companies would be making without their presence is ridiculous, to say the least.

As for scratched or damaged copies, I don't know how to account for this. I've owned roughly a thousand CD's and haven't ever scratched one so bad that it couldn't be repaired. If it got broken or stolen, I bought a new one.

Oh, I forgot to mention that piracy makes baby jesus cry. I hope you can live with yourselves now.

Argue both sides all you want.

Developers WILL stop making games for the PC, regardless.

Rduke, the rest, whatever you argue this does not change the fact. You may as well yell at a wall.

As an spiring developer, I play games on the PC, it's my favorite.
I will develop for consoles.

Yes, they can be pirated, and almost as easily too, however, they aren't, and it usually involves modding the box, which a lot of people just don't do, I do not know why.

If PC gaming remains, it will be online/mmo etc or bust.

You can 'free try' dl'ed games, do whatever you want. This does not change the fact, that 90% of my entire school in games development intends to develop for consoles, and let me tell you, piracy is a main element. We deal with it in class a lot actually.

The rest intend MMO's.

I am dead serious. Say what you want, I really could give a ****. Tell me I am wrong, I could give a ****.

In the future, you'll get mmo's on Pc, and mmo's/console games. Like it or no, that is whats coming, regardless of 'WHAT' causes it, no beating around, the up and coming are going to work around piracy, so that it IS a non issue, but let me tell you in all honesty, this is what you're going to get. Single player games etc are a thing of the past in the minds of makers, for reasons that don't matter -it's coming anyway.

Also, the CoD4 thing, its not people logging in with cracks, that much is misguided. IT IS THE AMOUNT OF PPL TRYING TO LOG IN with cracks that is astounding. No, they aren't getting on the online servers.

As you can see here, you're all in agreement that mmo's like wow etc will survive, and so wil consoles. Trust me when I say that this is not unknown to developers.

Call me whatever you want, etc, but this is the truth... and let lightning strike me down if this 'future' is not self inflicted, regardless of any argument.

The End.

Fair enough... I will be a bit more succinct in my cynicism in an attempt to spare you from the cheese grader :-p

Societies have been cyclical. They trend to rise and fall. The historical fall of most great nations has been tied to a decline in morality of leadership as well as citizens.

Thus, in terms of absolutes, our world as a whole may be 'better off' than an other snap shot point in history, but rest assured as we continue to make choices of lesser moral value, our great society will decline and ultimately fall.

With all our greatness tens of thousands of people are exterminated in places like Africa. With all our greatness people still starve. With all our greatness, we still murder babies.

No, this piracy is not the cause murder, but you know it is a window into our thoughts of today. I mean just look at the posts here. People justifying and even heralding immorality. People who are so selfish they say, my own desire to play this game comes above the law. I believe our society is becoming more selfish daily. Our hearts hurt for those in need, pictures stir the emotion, but ultimately our actions tell of our sincerity.

Thus it is my opinion that our society is on a downward trend, put the cheese grader away.

Double post, sorry

Well, technically, I don't have the cheese grater, you do...

Seriously though, I do agree (I'd be insane not to) that this current society is in need of many improvements, but what do you expect, it's a bunch of imperfect humans at the helm. Of course to add the the cluster**** that is humanity, everything is complicated, next to nothing is black and white, and we all have limited patience (I'll bet quite a few people just skipped/skimmed over slobogob's long post even though his is the most well-rounded/sane argument out of the bunch, in my opinion of course, really, I couldn't have put it much better)

Let's start putting some of the blame on the hardware and software designers.

How about more bang for the buck? Yippie 10-12 missions and 12 hours of gameplay. I remember when I used to get 30 or 40 hours out of a game. A baldur's gate, most of the Ultima games, bard's tale, etc.

How about games that actually work on lower end computers? Most people use their computers for internet surfing, word processing and some games. Not everyone has the money to upgrade every 1-2 years. The games need to focus on mid level computers from 1-2 years ago rather than cutting edge computers.

We have warcraft 3 running just fine on a laptop that had minimum specifications. Make the minimum specifications realistic instead of a bad experience. That means it should have settings set to low, but you can still get a smooth experience.

How about games that have a cooperative mode also rather than PvP only? Sometimes I enjoy playing with my friends to get through missions instead of playing against "professional gamers".

How about higher quality games that actually work?
You should not need 7 patches to get a game running. Support should not drop off after 1 or 2 patches. Obvious bugs and crashes should be resolved. Also make sure you can save anywhere.

How about inventiveness and game design?
Most of the games feel the same. I buy one game and it is basically the same as another. All I get are pretty pictures, but not much for storyline, campaigns or editors. Prettier graphics don't make a great game.

Also Demos are crucial. If a game isn't fun for the demo or it doesn't run well then I am not going to buy your game.

Now for the non game side that affects PCs.
It is ridiculous that Nvidia or ATI can not bring out drivers that actually work reliably. Also it needs to match the video standard instead of workarounds. IE OpenGL2 or Direct X 9c or 10. Top tier software developers should not have workarounds for driver issues, but the independent developer has problems.

The same applies to sound card manufacturers.

It is ridiculous that VISTA is a pig. There is nothing gained by having your OS not run on 50% of the computers and actually slowing down your machine by 20%.

So despite all the problems with hardware, software, and high prices of games I don't buy many. I think I bought 6 games last year. 3 of them were in 5-10 dollar range (half price books and clearance). The others were in the 50 dollar range. Sad thing is I had just as much fun with the bargain bin games as I do with most of the cutting edge ones.

Also look at the types of games designed for PCs and consoles. If a console can do it as easily then it probably shouldn't be designed for the PC. FPS work about as well for both now. RTS is for the computer as are the sims. Roleplaying games depend on the design.

My recommendation is drop the price to about 20-30 dollars and you will find people don't mind buying a game, but when it is 50-60 dollars they want more than what the industry is giving them.

Yes, you go right ahead and do that. Then when the market is overly saturated with console developers and console games so that profits start declining, then half of you will come crawling back to PC game development. Right now the market is hot for console games and the demand is high. In a few years, it might be a completely different story.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Downloading and piracy, even if just for previewing purposes are illegal. I won't argue that. Is it wrong, unethical, or immoral? That's up to the individual to decide. Some laws are made to protect the individual and it is apparent that laws like the DMCA were created for corporations with a complete disregard to the people. Personally, I feel good about downloading a game first to check it out and if its a good game then I'll gladly pay for it. You also made a good point about not being able to return software. This policy alone makes me feel perfectly fine about downloading and evaluating games from other sources.

Is it wrong to buy something from Walmart then decide that you don't want it and return it after a couple weeks? Or that it is a poor quality product or perhaps even defective and return it as a result. I don't think anyone would try to argue the ethics or returning a defective or unsatisfactory product to the store.

First of all, can we please stop calling it stealing? This horse has been beaten dead, decayed and into the ground. Stealing would imply not only taking/using a product/service/etc. without paying for it, but also depriving someone else of said product. I walk into a store and physically remove a cd from the shelf, I've stolen it. Not only did I not pay for it, but it's going to cost money to replace the cd so that someone else can buy it. It's not stealing, it's copyright infringement, end of story.

Second, would you have preferred if he would have bought both games, and then realized he wasted his $50 on Crysis? Here's the problem with this and nearly any other entertainment industry that accounts for the declining quality in games, movies, music, etc. Marketing. There, I said it. It's not about how much work you actually put into making your game, filming your movie, or writing your songs. It's all about how you present and sell it. Marking is this biased, deceptive factor trying to get you to buy whatever the company's selling, and piracy just shuts a company's marketing department down. It totally bypasses it. Then all you're left with is the quality of the product. You download a torrent of an album and you realize "Wow, this is totally balls." It doesn't matter how the retarded record label tried to present 50 cent's newest artistic masterpiece, in fact they're now irrelevant. All that matters now is that you've been given direct access to it and you decide whether it's good or not.

I think there's an obvious shift from the power being in the hands of the company 20 years ago to the power being more greatly in the hands of the consumer. The companies want to charge you for the experience of either a cd, movie, or video game regardless of whether or not it's any good, and the consumers only want to pay for what they think is a quality experience. Now, we're in a position where we can say f*** your marketing department, and f*** your paid off/sponsored review sites, we're going to try it ourselves. In fact, a lot of people are doing this now after having been burned one too many times by companies that spent more time trying to market and sell their game than they did actually developing it and putting in quality work (Hellgate:London anyone?). Is this a good thing? I think so.

You have musicians now like Radiohead putting up their music for "whatever you think it's worth" because they see the shift, and they realize that people are going to pirate software, music, entertainment, games, etc., and the only thing you can really do in order to be successful now is create quality work. To blame piracy for your failure is essentially the same as saying "we can't survive in a changing market because we don't produce a quality product and our marketing department is irrelevant now". So if Iron Lore failed because of piracy, it was probably their own fault in the first place.

Consider this: Nearly every movie theater will refund your money if you leave half-way through and complain, saying you don't feel you've gotten your money's worth. Let's implement a system like that into games. You pay for the game, and have some arbitrary amount of time allotted to play it, during which you'll be able to get your money back if you're unhappy. Since so many of you seem to hate piracy, what do you think of a system like this? Do you think crappy games like Titan Quest or Hellgate:London would be successful in a model like this, or would they fail hard and fast?

Just gotta say.. I watched this video again..

You guys have no clue as to what you are talking about.. and the gaming companies have even less of a clue.

You are talking way high up in your tower...tossing speculations, numbers, and percentages.. When I don't think you have actually even visited a torrent site...

The numbers are not there... GO LOOK!

It is a pathetic excuse... Like saying that crazed blacks would rape white woman if cannabis was to not be made illegal!

It is totally outrageous to even hint that Piracy was the Primary cause of death of Iron Lore..

Then to listen to THQ's numbers of 70-80% of the market is Pirated!!!

Holy FRAK!!! Are pirates raiding their offices to steal their milk money too!! Pirates are rampant!!!

This whole issue reminds me of Willie Horton with a knife!

You hear that then say its a little high "A LITTLE?!?!?"

Then toss out 50% of it is pirated!!

That is MADNESS! 50%!

What I would say is that for the limited niche of people that download torrents.. Once again go to one of these sites and check it out..
The 50% or perhaps 70% of that limited number of people who download the game ...They do NOT go out and purchase it.. While the remaining 30-50% of those that do .. DO go out and purchased it.

Just a quick example.. I do plan on getting Sins of a Solar Empire .. It has the highest number of Seeders (those are people who Have the game)- 814 and also the highest number of Leechers- 637 (they do not have the file and want it ... they tend to have it in varying amounts from .001% to 99.9%- and it may take many days for them to complete the download)

Now... you may say WOW OMG look at all those THIEVES!! POLIZIA POLICE!! HELP!!

However they are merely getting hooked on the game.. For them to get new content.. bug fixes and so forth they have to buy it from Stardock...

And I bet many of them will.. I know I do not even have to waste my time downloading it to review it as I had to do with GALCiv2, which I purchased and still enjoy from time to time to this day...


Anyhow I agree with CannedTurkey on everything he or she said... except the part about the NIN album .. as I have not downloaded it to listen to it for myself .. and perhaps now I will not waste my time!..


(ahh get it see how it works???)

Also agree with Ohhhsnap!

Agree with Omenowl!

Agree with scisco!

That's actually not true. Software piracy isn't just copyright infringement. You're buying a SOFTWARE LICENSE. If you illegally obtain the software without the license, you are stealing. Similarly, pirating World of WarCraft isn't just copyright infringement, it's also considered theft of service since you're paying a subscription for an online service. It's the same as stealing cable, which for many years people claimed wasn't stealing because, hey, I'm not physically taking cable away from anybody.

Yes, actually. Because then he'd be just like me
No, seriously now. You make it sound like spending $50 on game that turns out to be a bust is like being nailed to a damn cross. Please, let's get real. Sometimes we make the mistake of buying bad products. That's life. You live and learn. Use your consumer power the right way and stay away from that particular developer the next time. Resorting to piracy is just going to scare more more developers away from the PC and hasten the mass exodus to the consoles.

CannedTurkey wrote about how MMOs and consoles are killing PC gaming. One of the reasons consoles are getting the love right now is because there's a bigger retail market for console titles in the US and because the developers see less piracy on the consoles. Read the interview we did with Mark Rein; it's pretty clear Epic sees consoles as a safer haven from piracy. And let's not argue the point about how easy it is to hack an Xbox 360; yes, you can hack it. But the larger point is that the console audience isn't as tech savvy as the PC gaming audience and doesn't have the ability or patience to hack and pirate console titles the way PC gamers do. The developers and publishers know this, and that's why we're seeing the current trend. (as for CannedTurkey's comment on MMOs, every MMO developer we've ever talked to says WoW's success has helped, not hurt, their business because it exposes more people to the MMO genre. So no, I don't think MMOs are to blame.)

And while I'm on that subject, isn't all of this scapegoating about why PC gaming is on downturn a little odd? We're blaming World of WarCraft now. We're blaming consoles. We're blaming marketing and PR. Yet the one thing we're reluctant to blame for the decline in PC gaming sales and number of developers making quality exclusive PC titles is the overwhelming fact that a large number of people in the PC gaming audience don't pay a dime for the games because they're downloading them illegally. Why is that? Why are we so reluctant to see the forest through the trees? People need to realize that if everyone pirated PC games, the market would cease to exist because the developers wouldn't make any money. And let's not compare this 1:1 with the music industry. Making an album is a lot less expensive and time consuming than making a PC game.

What's theaters are you going to? Seriously, I want to know. I've never be allowed to walk out of a film and get my money back unless the projector broke or something like that. I would love to get my money back from all those Michael Bay movies.

What ever happened to the bargain bin?

I think the PC gaming industry needs to go back to business school. Oh wait they are all probably CS majors who got promoted. In basic business you learn about the price vs demand curve. The general idea is that the less you charge the more units you will sell. If you can chart it out you will find that there is a point of maximum profits. Given something as intangible as software this is the way to go when picking a price point. If your market is 50% plus pirating your product maybe you charge too much.

I really think the issue is that they are charging too much for the games. Nobody in the industry wants to do the work so they just figure that if game X sold for $50 then we can sell our game for the same price even if the play time and quality are completely different. I know costs are high but that doesn't mean that they can't drop the price after a while. A good example is what Blizzard used to do, the game would come out for ~$40 and the hardcore fans would buy a copy. After 6-12 months the price would slip to the point that most people could afford it. Over the holidays you might even find it cheaper. I myself own 2 copies of Starcraft and the expansion pack because of this kind of pricing. I had a disk that was scratched and could only play the expansion pack so when the holiday sales came I bought another copy. It was only ~$20, well within range of an impulse by. This was even before WarIII and WoW came out so it was their top game and they still did it. I also have multiple copies of WarII because it was cheap.

To contrast, I now can't find my Warcraft III CD so I again am stuck with the expansion pack only. Unfortunately Blizzard has stopped smart pricing and the WarIII pack is still $40 everywhere I look, even Amazon. If it were cheaper I could say, 'hey it comes with the users guides now, which I will never read but hey this is value'. Unfortunately in the current times with expensive health insurance and a recession going my threshold for impulse buying is ~$30 so minus a sale or another price drop I am stuck with the Frozen Throne.

Software, especially on the PC has to deal with the fact that it will always be somewhat intangible. They really have to be conscious of the market and what it will bear in price before people resort to other means.

The console people have a legacy to help them along. In the early days there was the cartridge and higher production costs, people understood they had to pay more. In addition the product was physically more tangible. Today that legacy along with the knowledge that the companies have to pay for licensing people are again willing to pay more. They also have the knowledge that the game will always just work, no driver issues etc.

Instead of understanding these markets the companies come out with stupid pricing and charge the same or sometimes more for the PC version of the same product.

Personally the days of buying games the day they came out ended the day my son was born. If the prices came down more over time I would buy more games. For now I live with my old trusted games and a rare birthday present ($40 is out of the price range for my parents or in-laws even). Most games these days seem to start around $50 and drop down to $40 and never lower. If they would just drop the price more over time they would make it up eventually and it would help fund that last crucial year or two of developing the next game.

All the local Cinemark Theaters in my area do. Its likely that some of your local theaters allow this but you were unaware of it.

You're just arguing semantics. The "license" doesn't cost the game company a dime. If I make a copy of the game on my hard drive, or 100 copies on my hard drive, I'm not costing the company any more money than they already spent to make the game/market it/put physical copies on the shelves. Your argument is ridiculous.

Here's where you make a more valid point, as you ARE using the company's bandwidth without paying for the service. A more accurate analogy of violating copyright without stealing would be making your OWN WoW server for your friends to connect with their pirated clients. Again, I refer you to my hard drive file copying analogy.

I hear this thrown around a lot but I've yet to see some real hard numbers supporting this. Furthermore, I'd be interested in knowing what % of the "PC gaming audience" would have purchased the game in the first place if the ability to pirate it didn't exist. I'll give you an example: I'm a web designer, and from the age of about 11 on I used pirated software (flash, fireworks, photoshop, all that good stuff). The thing is, if I didn't have the ability to pirate it, I would have never used it in the first place as I was a kid and those programs are expensive. Go a step further and I'm now working for a large company where I had a say in what software they purchased for me, and I chose the software I was forced to pirate as a young kid. My point is this: a lot of people who pirate do it simply because it's a free option (which for a young kid it might be their only option). However, you get someone into using your product, be it software, a game, or whatever, when they actually have money later on they just might be one of your biggest fans/customers. Again, I'm comparing games to another industry for an example, I know it's a bit different but my point still stands.

I admit that there are some people out there who are simply going to pirate games because they can, and if the option wasn't there then they'd end up paying for them instead. That's why companies need to beef up security to a certain extent. It might just be easier to spend $50 on a game you really like rather than going through the process of cracking it and trying to get it to work on multiplayer. But at a certain point (when it costs more than it makes the company), it's no longer worth it for them to make a game any harder to crack, but that's a whole other can of worms. Companies also need to focus more heavily on multiplayer if they want them to be successful in the PC gaming market. Multiplayer games are way harder to pirate, and also have the highest amount of replayability since you have this new dynamic element you've introduced (other people! yay!). For me, I've found that, with the exception of a few select titles (Fallout 1 and 2, Escape from Butcher Bay), single player games just aren't worth that kind of money for only a few hours of entertainment.

People need to accept the fact that not everyone pirating would have been a customer in the first place, and if you're just genuinely upset that some punk is playing your game for free even though it didn't cost you anything, all I really have to say is, well, get over it. Some day he might actually give a **** about you and your company and he might just pay for a game, or he might not. Either way, all you can do as a company is make quality products and give gamers the ability to really experience what you make, so you can prove to them that your product is worth $50 (or more, ex: monthly fees).

Every theater I've been to in my area (Ventura County, CA) lets you leave the movie part of theway into it and get a refund. Obviously you'll have a tough time convincing them to give you your money back if you sat through the whole thing (like our good friend previously in the thread who played all the way through Crysis before deciding he didn't like it).