-Linux vs Windows- - Page 3

Suse has only lost popularity because of the childish reaction of linux fanboys when Suse signed an agreement with Microsoft, essentially stating they would collaborate on "Enterprise level software." Now In the exchange Microsoft can actually recommend a linux distro to its customers, that being Suse Enterprise. This could of been a big win for linux, but as you could imagine it was seen as a stab in the back. Which obviously it isnt since the deal only adheres to Enterprise level software and not the free distros that Suse participates in.

I've used Suse and many other distros for quite some time. I always had a strong liking for Suse OpenExchange. Greatest exchange system Ive ever had the pleasure of working with.

You are pretty much going to get the same feeling with each linux distro. They will all appear slow at times, which is a fault of the modularized design of linux as a whole. Ubuntu, Debian, RedHat, Suse that feeling doesnt change much between them.

You definitely used the wrong distro for your installation. It should have been the x86-64. Could be a major role in the result of your experience.

So an i386 program does not run well on a i686 Linux?!
And what about SSE, SSE2, SSE3 and x64 optimizations; I always hear talking about these for Windows apps and never for Linux applications.

An i686 CPU will run applications compiled for generic i386 about as well as the CPU would run generic i686 code. In my experience, it's really not until higher-level optimizations and such are employed that there is much improvement over the standard "-mcpu=i386 -O2" as it's an okay optimization level already.

These things are most certainly supported in Linux as well. You can add MMX, 3DNow!, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, control the bit width, and add a *huge* of other factors in what CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS you feed to the compiler. Type in "man gcc" into the terminal to get all of the possible flags to send to the compiler. Note that on a 64-bit system, all programs are compiled by default as x86_64 and that spec includes automatic SSE support up to SSE2 as no x86_64 chip does not support SSE2. You can also make the 64-bit compiler spit out 32-bit code but you can't generate 64-bit code on a 32-bit OS unless you have a cross-compile toolchain set up. You can run 32-bit code on 64-bit Linux OSes ONLY IF your kernel and OS is set up to allow this. It's the default on just about every distribution out there, but it can be disabled, so that statement is not 100% true.

And about getting the most optimized kernel...if you really want to get the most optimized kernel, grab the source code and compile it. That way you can set things like the actual CPU you're running, as well as the I/O scheduler and other things.

I'm gonna break some news to a whole bunch of people not just on this forum but in the Linux world in general.

Ok, guys. Listen up. Kindly wake up and smell the coffee. As much as I can appreciate:

You can add MMX, 3DNow!, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, control the bit width, and add a *huge* of other factors in what CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS you feed to the compiler. Type in "man gcc" into the terminal to get all of the possible flags to send to the compiler. Note that on a 64-bit system, all programs are compiled by default as x86_64 and that spec includes automatic SSE support up to SSE2 as no x86_64 chip does not support SSE2.

Any regular Joe with kids, a mortgage and car payments who uses Win to make a living does not want to see that. You might as well try to get him to learn FORTRAN in order to balance his checkbook. Why do people use Win? Because they know how. Most people who work on Win don't give a rat's bunghole if an OS is Unix or Eunuchs, all they wanna know is that it will run the apps that they need to get through a day's work and get paid.

Please realize that THE MAJORITY of people who use Win every day DO NOT HAVE THE SLIGHTEST CLUE AS TO:

Installing the OS
What the RUN command does
What the Registry is
What System Restore does
How to Defragment or why
What DX10 is

and on and on and on.

It is very easy for those of us who have a clue to be able to determine from our ivory towers what the users need and thus go off to add a few more layers of complexity to something that's already too damn hard for Mr. Joe to grasp.

There is only one thing standing in the way of Linux taking over the world. And that is distance from the geekizoid developers.

Captain Robert April's Program (Also known as CRAP) is simple. When you buy a CRAP Linux install disk and place it in your computer you get a dialog box. It says: DO YOU WANT TO INSTALL, YES/NO. If you press YES, it then says: GO GET LUNCH. WHEN YOU COME BACK IT WILL BE INSTALLED. Then when it is installed, you can sit down and start working on it. It will have found its own drivers, it will have installed the apps you need, it will have done whatever convoluted conversions it needs to and will just leave you the f*** alone and let you WORK!

Why is it that Linuxheads just can't get that through their solid silicon skulls? They cry and wail and complain that the big mean world doesn't recognize the innate superiority of their OS and is in the grasp of Satan Gates while they keep on publishing 100 page installation manuals.

KEEP
IT
SIMPLE
STUPID

!!!!

Linux seems a lot simpler to me. Maybe windows seems simpler to you cause you've used it a lot more. An example:

Take installing programs in gentoo for example. Say i want to install mozilla firefox (something the average joe might even care about). All i type is "emerge mozilla-firefox" go watch some TV and when I come back its completely installed, ready to use, and compiled specifically for my processor. What happens if you want to install firefox for windoze? first you have to find it using google, download it, double click on the download, click your way thorough a crap load of EULAs, questions, and popups. This is only one example, it is that easy to install almost anything. I don't know about you but I think typing "emerge mozilla-firefox" is a lot easier!

And guess what? If anything breaks in Linux you (or someone more knowledgeable) can actually fix it. What happens in windows if your registry gets corrupted? Your SOL, that's what happens!

I'm not doubting that one little bit. The bottom line though is not what I think of Linux, but what Mr. Joe does. When you say the word Linux, he starts thinking command line interface and his eyes roll back in his head. Whether we hate it or not, Win is the GUI standard. IMHO the only way that Linux is going to overcome its immense handicaps in the Mr. Joe market is by turning itself into a demonstrably simpler and easier Win. Let the masterful strokes of programming virtuosity lie in the background. Mr. Joe doesn't break his Win. He just launches Excel and plugs in numbers all day. That is all he wants to do. Chances are Mr. Joe doesn't really know where his OS ends and his Excel begins.

The way for Linux to overcome Win is simple.

Yes, again excellent points. The basic reason why mices have taken over the world is because users can still point to something and a menu will come down and give them choices of what to click next. You would be amazed at how many graphics pros, some of whom earn into 6 figures a year, still run the cursor up to the menu to Save or Copy or Paste in Photoshop. Mr. Joe looks at Ctrl C and then looks at mouse Edit / Copy and chooses the latter every single time. Most people don't want to learn anything more about their computers, even if it makes life easier for them. They learn exactly what they need to do their work and resist anything else.

Another incredibly stupid interface problem is the idiocy of having a row of F keys across the top of every keyboard that do absolutely nothing and that most users have never ever ever touched, while if I want to change Image Size in Photoshop (which is something that I do, maybe, A ZILLION TIMES EVERY FREAKIN' DAY) it's Ctrl Alt I. How about Save For Web, which is probably my second most used action? Ctrl Alt Shift S. GIMME A FRIGGIN' BREAK!!!! Who comes up with these keystrokes, Torquemada Jr.? Yeah, I know I can assign keystrokes to my F keys, but that's not the point. You pay damn near a thousand bucks for a CS suite and I want it to work logically and efficiently. They've only had twenty stinkin' years to perfect it and I'm still doing Ctrl Alt Shift S? You have to have Andres Segovia's fingers to do that at the same time!!!

Unfortunately software is still designed by geeks for geeks. And you could not ever underestimate how many millions of people out there are fed up with their crap.

Well, if you really, really want an optimized installation try out gentoo, although the installation process takes some time and has a pretty steep learning curve.

http://www.gentoo.org/
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?full=1
http://forums.gentoo.org/
http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page

Supposedly they have new GUI install cds now, but I've never given them a try. If you get too overwhelmed just use ubuntu. If you get stuck with gentoo and the forums/wiki don't help you send me a PM.

I think I'll just try Ubuntu; want the transition to be smooth and gentle because this was to be done while I also have my job, works and school projects running and I don't have the luxury of a second PC.
And what about compilation; is it that easy for me to take the Blender code and compile it with all the optimization flags; will it then run reliably on my PC?!

Well, separately, SSE2/SSE3 and AMD64 give you an advantage like at most 30% for SSE2/SSE3 and 17% for AMD64, but combined together, SSE3, makes good use of the 8 extra registers of AMD64, giving an incredible ~85% over a standard build.

No problem about this, because even SUSE, ubuntu and gentoo have live CDs, to preview the system without installing it, however, I want to install other apps and try them, because if I only had to browse the web, burn CDs and write papers, I'd have moved to a linux distribution long ago.

He was asking if it was possible to support things like SSE2, and my reply stated that it certainly was. Maybe I gave a little too much information. One does not HAVE to recompile applications if they don't want to, but unlike Windows, it's generally possible to do so if you want to ensure a feature is in fact supported and try to milk a little more speed out of the program. That's what I think m25 was after.

1. Almost every Windows user has had to reinstall the OS, unless the computer is almost never used or they simply get a new machine when the old one needs to have its OS cleaned up. They might not do it themselves, but they know what is being done. One could also have somebody install and set up Linux on your computer in a similar fashion.

2. They may not know what to put in there, but my guess is that most people would know that some command typed into a box called "Run command" runs a command. It's pretty self-explanatory, kind of like pushing the green "on" button to turn something on.

3. Most people probably don't know what the Registry is. But that's just as well, as it's so fragile that even people who know how to work with it can FUBAR it easily.

4. I think System Restore is similar to the "Run" command, very self explanatory.

5. I'd wager that more people know how to defragment their hard drive than don't and that is can increase performance. It's one of those things that is said so much that it's almost on the level of "use an antivirus and firewall." They may not know exactly what's being done, but they know to do it.

6. Right now, it's vaporware as nothing uses it. The Direct3D 10 framework only works in Windows Vista and only one GPU- the NVIDIA 8800- supports it. 99.99% of computers out there can't run it, so you're right- few know what it is.

We were talking about one guy, m25, not about all users in general. I assume that he is technically adept enough to handle Linux. Mr. Joe is a completely different discussion, which I will be glad to have somewhere else.

[qupte]There is only one thing standing in the way of Linux taking over the world. And that is distance from the geekizoid developers.[/quote]

That among other things...lock-in is the one I am thinking of.

Some of the Linux installers are pretty much like that. You pop in a CD, it boots up to a nice graphical desktop, and you double-click on the "Install" icon. You answer a few things like "Name" and it's good to go.

And I wouldn't say that Windows will "leave me the f*** alone and let me WORK!" There are a bazillion popups and alerts and hoops to jump through. Yes, I have a hardware firewall- quit bugging me and telling me that I don't have a firewall at every bootup. No, I don't want to restart my computer RIGHT NOW after updates are installed. And don't restart it on me anyway if I go for 30 minutes to eat lunch. No, I am not a pirate, so quit with the "You must pass WGA certification" after EVERY app as I've passed it the other six times that I've had to validate. Yes, I want to see what's in Control Panel. And so on and so forth. It drives my nuts.

There are some zealots out there for sure; you've probably seen from or heard from them at some point. But there certainly is a demand for an OS that does not hold your hand every single second and treat you like an idiot. So not everybody wants something designed expressly and explicitly for the absolute lowest common denominator. Microsoft has certainly done some pretty low things to the software market with lock-ins, lock-outs, DRM, and lawsuits- that's undeniable.

My point is that there needs to be more than One System To Rule Them All. That would be like there being One TV Network To Rule Them All or One Porno Mag To Rule Them All. If you want something different than what that one companyoffers...you're SOL. Choice is good.

@ CaptRobertApril & MU_Engineer

I think the discussion is getting a little off-topic, but I'd like to add my two cents. The problem here isn't to sell the concept of Linux to the average Joe. It's about whether or not m25 or people like him would see benefits from moving to Linux. This means people who know their way around a computer and have run up against the limits of what Windows has to offer. Putting this back in the context of the average Joe, I see a spectrum of people's preferences, ranging between those who are happy to have someone else do everything for them, and those who want to be able to control everything their computer does. The former crowd is certainly the larger bunch, but people here tend to be the latter crowd. Anyone who OCs is probably the latter crowd. It seems to me that this spectrum is served by various OS solutions. I'd list these as

MacOS
Windows
Linux - ubuntu then SUSE and the like, then Gentoo and the like

If you want NO control over your computer but you just want it to work, buy a Mac. If you want a little control/customisation, get a PC and run Windows. If you want to be able to do whatever you like, but you recognize you have to know what you're doing, run Gentoo. I've found a happy medium in ubuntu. Others will find their own.

Yesterday tried the 64 bit ubuntu; response and resources' management were the best I had ever seen in a modern system, installing was a breeze, from the desktop 8O and I played games while waiting for the setup to finish.
Still I could not get Blender installed though , it said a package was missing.
It recognized my modem but could not get it to work; got some drivers from linuxant but all the packages said something like 'wrong kernel i386'.

I second that.

thats why i like windows and 99% of the people in the world. ( not sure if its 99% but its something like that).

People dont want to waste time learning liniux if windows could do it for them and doesn't take as much time because "time is money"

What package did it say it was missing?

What kind of modem do you have?

As root you can run the "lspci -v" command (hopefully ubuntu comes with this) to get some information on your hardware. If your not sure how to be "root" just bring up a console and type "su" (for switch user), and you will be asked for root's password.

You will probably have better luck getting your questions answered on an Ubuntu forum.

Oh yeah, maybe this will help. Although any "emerge" commands won't work, just substitute the equivilent ubuntu command which i think is "apt-get"

so i was thinking you might just be able to do an

sudo apt-get install blender

here is an amazing source for ubuntu 6.10

includes blender3d

Well, fortunately here on THG we have no trouble finding people to discuss the latest developments in Hafnium (is that 50% of a Wholium?) 8) or any other tech subject in eye-bugging detail and thus support for Linux is only a few keystrokes away.

Therefore, since I'm kinda orbiting around the possibility of Linuxising myself, here are some rather basic questions. Pardon me if I've asked some of them in previous posts.

1) By Q3 07 I'll buy my 2xQuad (we'll see what's on the market then) with 8GB RAM, 150GB Raptor for OS, and 4x750GB 7200.10s in RAID 5 for data. Is there anything in Linux which will prevent me from using this hw to its fullest?

2) I know I gotta run Photoshop in WINE, are there any independent tests/reviews/benchmarks that demonstrate relative compatibility and speed of Photoshop on Win vs. WINE?

3) My video will be a top-end DX9 along the lines of an X1950XT, or maybe a lower-end (by then) DX10 to get the extra video quality although I know I can't use DX10. I also want a mid-range 5.1 or so sound card. Are there any problems with drivers, etc.?

4) RedHat, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, Slackware... AAAAAAARRRGGGHHH!!! What do I use if I do NO programming and just want a nice, simple OS that gets out of my way and lets me do my work without bugging me for the next few years?

And most importantly:

5) Do you swear on your dog's life and that you will be contaminated with rabid cooties for the rest of your days that I will never have to stare at a command line interface, even for one second?

Thanks for the info. I can't go back to Mac or forward to Vista for various reasons, but the most important being: DRM/Naziware/EULA. I'd rather put my private parts through a meat grinder, thank you very much. However since I live breathe and eat Photoshop it looks like I might be stuck on XP for a while. I was under the impression that Photoshop under WINE rocked. Is that not the case?

DT,

I can guarantee you that TIME spent learning Linux (not just installing and using the GUI) is actually = MONEY.

Just do a search for UNIX sys admins or Unix test/QA or UNIX development on Monster. I think you will be very surprised.

I often recommend to younger folks trying to break into the industry that they install and LEARN Linux. It is a free distro that can result in a job (even entry level) that is probably around 40 - 45K..

AND

Depending on how good you are that number can jump substantially in a very short time. 1 - 2 years of GOOD experience will allow SOME to take a job in the 65 - 75K range (switching from sysadmin to Dev or Testing).

That's not the case. WINE is not a panacea. If you're moving to Linux, you might as well learn Gimp.

Linux's CLI (command line interface) is very powerful but most of the time you can do without it. OTOH, knowing Bash (one of the several CLI shells) can make most things a lot easier.

The best advice I can give is: choose a good distro (I suggest Suse 10.2), install it and give it a try. If you have a 20Gb+ HD, you can plug it, set it as the only HD in your PC and install Linux. If you don't like, you haven't harmed any of the other HD's.

That's not the case. WINE is not a panacea. If you're moving to Linux, you might as well learn Gimp.

Linux's CLI (command line interface) is very powerful but most of the time you can do without it. OTOH, knowing Bash (one of the several CLI shells) can make most things a lot easier.

The best advice I can give is: choose a good distro (I suggest Suse 10.2), install it and give it a try. If you have a 20Gb+ HD, you can plug it, set it as the only HD in your PC and install Linux. If you don't like, you haven't harmed any of the other HD's.

I'd addressed Gimp in other posts. Let's put it this way. My job requires a Rolex. Gimp is a Lucky Charms Leprechaun Digital Watch. They both tell time, but there is a whole lot of difference between them. There is zero chance that I would be able to do the things I do on Photoshop right now on Gimp. Not in a zillion years.

I've got several HDs, but as I mentioned in the previous post, Photoshop pays my rent. No Photoshop. No me. So that's pretty well the end of my tentative dance with Linux!

Yeah, it looks like I'm gonna be on XP 64 for the foreseeable future. I can't let my unabiding hatred of MS handicap my paycheque! Well, enjoy Brazil! I dunno if on Carneval Eve I'd be indoors typing, but to each his own! I'd be out there enjoying the half-naked chicks!!!!

Check out cygwin.

i guess my next question would be why do u still use a modem? are you located somewhere where cable or DSL is not available? since it seems you spent a couple $$$$ on your computer? Also did you check out that link i sent you for ubuntu. it proved very helpful to me