Save XP! - Page 9 - General-Homebuilt

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purplerat wrote :

Maybe you're not familar with actual human beings, because when given the chose between something that is old and comfortable and something that is new and different 2 out of 3 seems a little low.

Without intending to sound too sarcastic (please forgive my tongue-in-cheek), I'm afraid that on my planet (little blue one, 3rd from the sun), humans do not behave that way. Part of the motivation in purchases is the "look at me, I have the latest and greatest " . That's why you see people driving around in their new cars for 3 weeks after they buy one with the price sticker still pasted to the window so they can show as many people as possible that they bought a new car. That's why people line up outside the computer store at 9 pm and stand in the cold for 3 hours so they can be the first one on their block to have the new OS when it goes on sale at midnight.

Are you actually suggesting that if a group of people walked on a car lot and saw two rows of cars, one row with 2007 models and one row with 2001 models, both for sale at the same price, that more than 2 outta 3 people would choose the 2001 models ? You see Quickbooks 2008 and Quickbooks 2007 on the shelves, which one you buying ?

Do you remember what they did for the Xmas holiday season last year ? ....to prevent a slump in holiday sales, all the major vendors launched the "free Vista upgrade" campaign because they were afraid that sales would go in the toilet as everyone held off waiting for the latest and greatest and not wanting to be stuck buying "sunsetting technology".

Did these human beings you refer to go thru some sudden evolutionary change in the last dozen or so years ? Where was this need to buy something old, warm and comfy during past OS releases ?
-When XP came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for Win2k ?
-When Win2k came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for WinNT ?
-When Win98 came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for Win95 ?

So, I gotta ask.... how come there wasn't this mass of people wanting to be "old and comfy" for all the previous OS upgrades yet there's this major evolutionary change in human behavior for Vista ? If this is true, we haven't seen an evolutionary change like that since that big rock hit our planet 65 million years ago. Corporate users have to justify their actions so they gotta show a ROI before they make a major move.....so on the corporate level, they buy test boxes and evaluate alternatives before doing major rollouts.

How many people are buying software looking for familiar and cozy instead of new and improved these days ? Do you know of a single software company who continues to sell the old version of a program (episodic games like Quake 1 - > 4 don't count) after the new version is out ? Heck, usually if you buy software within 90 days of a new version release they will give you a free upgrade to the new version.

MS has now extended the sunset date for XP sales twice now. How many times in MS's history has this happened before ? How many times have puter vendors and consumers come out with a "Betty Ford like "Just Say No" campaign ?

I can remember once.....from the "Save XP" link:

"In many respects, Vista is like the Windows Millennium Edition that was meant to replace Windows 98 in 2000 but caused more trouble than it was worth. At that time, Windows 2000 was promising but didn't support a lot of hardware, so users were stuck between two bad choices. Without admitting Millennium's failure, Microsoft quietly put Windows 98 back on the market until the fixed version of Windows 2000 (SP1) was available. Microsoft needs to do something like that again today."

And the one fact that I found most revealing.....how many people upgraded their machines to Vista or bought new machines with Vista and then uninstalled it and went back to XP ?

When in the history of MS OS's did you see magazine after magazine printing articles like this ?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,140283/article.html

When in the history of MS OS's did you ever see surveys showing fewer businesses are now planning to move to Windows Vista than the same survey revealed months before ? The only approval rating that's dropped so precipitously in history has been Dubya's.

When in the history of MS OS's did you ever see 100,000 people signing a petition to save the old OS ?

Quote :

This may sound completely stupid but I've heard more then a few people even say that they don't want SP2, because they are afraid of how it may change XP.

Not stupid at all considering that SP2 broke over 200 programs. What smart people did was let others live on the bleeding edge. They looked at the broken problem list, and if they had any of the programs on it, they waited for fixes to be incorporated. Had nothing to do with "familiar and comfy".....had to do with "I don't want no down time".

There's an old saying "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". I think consumers are singing along with Daltry and saying they "won't get fooled again". Consumers remember ME, they remember NT4 before SP3 .... they remember the atrocity that was Win2k before SP1 and how slowly it got better. They saying "show me" and "give me a reason" MS hasn't delivered.

On top of that, they are confused as all hell with regard to what the heck one to get:

Ultimate 32 bit Version
Ultimate 64 bit Version
Business 32 Bit Version
Business 64 Bit Version
Home Premium 32 Bit Version
Home Premium 64 Bit Version
Home Basic Full 32 Bit Version
Home Basic 64 Bit Version

One, peeps are hesitant to make the choice so they simply put off making a choice.....which is made especially hard when if you make the wrong one you are "dead ended". That is if have Dell build ya system with Home Basic 32 and then realize you really shoulda gotten Home Premium 64, sorry dude, if ya can't sweet talk Dell into being nice, ya gotta pay full price for ya new OS from MS.

Two, people are left feeling that Vista is a "not ready for prime time transition" to 64 bit computing and don't want to invest themselves in "soon to be outdated 32 bit tech". As TH writes today, 64 bit computing isn't quite here yet:

"Vista 64 still faces a few challenges, not the least of which is often a lack of drivers, though at least most standard applications run without issues. On the other hand, none of the current generation of applications can come even remotely close to utilizing the maximum amount of memory installable."

Since you need at least 20 - 50 % better hardware to offset a new OS's bloat and notice any significant speed differences, I simply don't have much to gain.....When will I buy Vista ? Well I can still get XP through the holiday season in 2008 from OEM vendors. At that point I will suspend any buying until 3rd / 4th quarter of 2009. When the buy Vista and get free upgrade to Win 2007 comes out, I figure:

1. 64 bit drivers will be available for all my stuff.
2. 64 bit programs will be able to actually take advantage of the 64 bit OS
3. Hardware improvements will more than offset any Vista performance penalties
4. I will be able to create an empty partition and install the atrocious Windows7 on it with my free upgrade coupon. I won't use it for 18-36 months while they get the bugaboos out and stable drivers get released....but heck what do I care, didn't cost me anything.
5. 16 GB of RAM will cost $50

Message quoted 2 times

Reply to JackNaylorPE

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Jack please forgive me as I haven't gone through your whole post yet. But I'd argue that you new car analogy more or less impresses the unwillingness to change of humans. The modern automobile has remained pretty much unchanged over the past 50 years, at least from the consumers viewpoint. That's why we still have very inefficient, unsafe, toxic and unreliable vehicles today despite all kinds of technology that could change that. Just look at all the concept cars that have been presented over the past few decades. Today's vehicles still look more like those of the 50s then anything that people have since envisioned as being the future of automobiles.

Message quoted 1 times

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Reply to purplerat

One of the things keeping many people from upgrading to Vista from XP is the cost of the upgrade.
For most people $250 is alot to go from XP Pro to Vista Ultimate. I put mine off until MS offered the buy one get one free last month.

Rattus Viola: Sino non they quisnam operor non have scientia futurus vestri rector.

Message quoted 1 times

Reply to bobbknight

JackNaylorPE wrote :

Without intending to sound too sarcastic (please forgive my tongue-in-cheek), I'm afraid that on my planet (little blue one, 3rd from the sun), humans do not behave that way. Part of the motivation in purchases is the "look at me, I have the latest and greatest " . That's why you see people driving around in their new cars for 3 weeks after they buy one with the price sticker still pasted to the window so they can show as many people as possible that they bought a new car. That's why people line up outside the computer store at 9 pm and stand in the cold for 3 hours so they can be the first one on their block to have the new OS when it goes on sale at midnight.

Are you actually suggesting that if a group of people walked on a car lot and saw two rows of cars, one row with 2007 models and one row with 2001 models, both for sale at the same price, that more than 2 outta 3 people would choose the 2001 models ? You see Quickbooks 2008 and Quickbooks 2007 on the shelves, which one you buying ?

Do you remember what they did for the Xmas holiday season last year ? ....to prevent a slump in holiday sales, all the major vendors launched the "free Vista upgrade" campaign because they were afraid that sales would go in the toilet as everyone held off waiting for the latest and greatest and not wanting to be stuck buying "sunsetting technology".

Did these human beings you refer to go thru some sudden evolutionary change in the last dozen or so years ? Where was this need to buy something old, warm and comfy during past OS releases ?
-When XP came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for Win2k ?
-When Win2k came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for WinNT ?
-When Win98 came out, other than corporate users, was there a major call from consumers clamoring for Win95 ?

So, I gotta ask.... how come there wasn't this mass of people wanting to be "old and comfy" for all the previous OS upgrades yet there's this major evolutionary change in human behavior for Vista ? If this is true, we haven't seen an evolutionary change like that since that big rock hit our planet 65 million years ago. Corporate users have to justify their actions so they gotta show a ROI before they make a major move.....so on the corporate level, they buy test boxes and evaluate alternatives before doing major rollouts.

How many people are buying software looking for familiar and cozy instead of new and improved these days ? Do you know of a single software company who continues to sell the old version of a program (episodic games like Quake 1 - > 4 don't count) after the new version is out ? Heck, usually if you buy software within 90 days of a new version release they will give you a free upgrade to the new version.

MS has now extended the sunset date for XP sales twice now. How many times in MS's history has this happened before ? How many times have puter vendors and consumers come out with a "Betty Ford like "Just Say No" campaign ?

I can remember once.....from the "Save XP" link:

"In many respects, Vista is like the Windows Millennium Edition that was meant to replace Windows 98 in 2000 but caused more trouble than it was worth. At that time, Windows 2000 was promising but didn't support a lot of hardware, so users were stuck between two bad choices. Without admitting Millennium's failure, Microsoft quietly put Windows 98 back on the market until the fixed version of Windows 2000 (SP1) was available. Microsoft needs to do something like that again today."

And the one fact that I found most revealing.....how many people upgraded their machines to Vista or bought new machines with Vista and then uninstalled it and went back to XP ?

When in the history of MS OS's did you see magazine after magazine printing articles like this ?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,140283/article.html

When in the history of MS OS's did you ever see surveys showing fewer businesses are now planning to move to Windows Vista than the same survey revealed months before ? The only approval rating that's dropped so precipitously in history has been Dubya's.

When in the history of MS OS's did you ever see 100,000 people signing a petition to save the old OS ?

Quote :

This may sound completely stupid but I've heard more then a few people even say that they don't want SP2, because they are afraid of how it may change XP.

Not stupid at all considering that SP2 broke over 200 programs. What smart people did was let others live on the bleeding edge. They looked at the broken problem list, and if they had any of the programs on it, they waited for fixes to be incorporated. Had nothing to do with "familiar and comfy".....had to do with "I don't want no down time".

There's an old saying "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". I think consumers are singing along with Daltry and saying they "won't get fooled again". Consumers remember ME, they remember NT4 before SP3 .... they remember the atrocity that was Win2k before SP1 and how slowly it got better. They saying "show me" and "give me a reason" MS hasn't delivered.

On top of that, they are confused as all hell with regard to what the heck one to get:

Ultimate 32 bit Version
Ultimate 64 bit Version
Business 32 Bit Version
Business 64 Bit Version
Home Premium 32 Bit Version
Home Premium 64 Bit Version
Home Basic Full 32 Bit Version
Home Basic 64 Bit Version

One, peeps are hesitant to make the choice so they simply put off making a choice.....which is made especially hard when if you make the wrong one you are "dead ended". That is if have Dell build ya system with Home Basic 32 and then realize you really shoulda gotten Home Premium 64, sorry dude, if ya can't sweet talk Dell into being nice, ya gotta pay full price for ya new OS from MS.

Two, people are left feeling that Vista is a "not ready for prime time transition" to 64 bit computing and don't want to invest themselves in "soon to be outdated 32 bit tech". As TH writes today, 64 bit computing isn't quite here yet:

"Vista 64 still faces a few challenges, not the least of which is often a lack of drivers, though at least most standard applications run without issues. On the other hand, none of the current generation of applications can come even remotely close to utilizing the maximum amount of memory installable."

Since you need at least 20 - 50 % better hardware to offset a new OS's bloat and notice any significant speed differences, I simply don't have much to gain.....When will I buy Vista ? Well I can still get XP through the holiday season in 2008 from OEM vendors. At that point I will suspend any buying until 3rd / 4th quarter of 2009. When the buy Vista and get free upgrade to Win 2007 comes out, I figure:

1. 64 bit drivers will be available for all my stuff.
2. 64 bit programs will be able to actually take advantage of the 64 bit OS
3. Hardware improvements will more than offset any Vista performance penalties
4. I will be able to create an empty partition and install the atrocious Windows7 on it with my free upgrade coupon. I won't use it for 18-36 months while they get the bugaboos out and stable drivers get released....but heck what do I care, didn't cost me anything.
5. 16 GB of RAM will cost $50

Jack,
Very well said! It seems that many Vista users have new car syndrome. They like the flashy new GUI, but don't stop to ask themselves what if anything really makes this OS better? One of my friends recently changed back to XP, and said the only thing he misses is the new version of Movie Maker.

Message quoted 1 times

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Reply to vtr99

Ok Jack, I've had a chance to read your whole post. Forgetting Vista vs XP or anything OS related for a second, do you really believe that people are more inclined to change than to stay the same? Saying a 2001 vs 2007 car doesn't prove much since they are essentially the same and at the same price of course newer would win out. But compare hybrid vs gas, and most will chose gas even at the same price and with the obvious advantage of cheaper fuel. Then you point out series like Quickbooks 2007 vs Quickbooks 2008 or Halo2 vs Halo3. It's not about the year, it's about the name. That's why everything is sequels now a days. Why come up with something new when people are more eager for more of the same. Look at television; most everything is homogenius. Is there really anything different from one reality show to another. Or what about the 10 different CSIs or Law and Orders? Then look at movies. About 80% plus are regergitated in some why or another. Rocky, Rambo, Indiana Jones and anything Star Wars/Star Trek are just the worst offenders. Music? Can you say cookie cutter? The most original idea anybody has had recently is to bring back the New Kids on The Block. Top selling PC game in 2007? Halo3. Most anticipated of 2008 - Star Craft 2! And why the hell do people still continue to use iPods? How about government? Most people complain about government and politicians but yet the US congress has a 90% incumbancy rate. I won't even touch the unwillingness to change when it comes to religion.

Previous changes with OSs don't prove a lot since just having a PC in the 90s was pretty new in itself and no Windows OS was around for more then a couple years without a new version. We went from 3.1->95->98->ME->XP in the same amount of time from XP to Vista. The 21st century is supposed to be the computer age but we've only had 1 OS in that time. So yes resistance to change plays a large role.

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-16-2008 at 12:55:53 AM

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
4GB OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 915Mhz
EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

vtr99 wrote :

Jack,
Very well said! It seems that many Vista users have new car syndrome. They like the flashy new GUI, but don't stop to ask themselves what if anything really makes this OS better? One of my friends recently changed back to XP, and said the only thing he misses is the new version of Movie Maker.

Exactly.

------------------------------

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2617/3815217176_0a5be7955d_o.gif

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3553/3818083596_1a772f7162_o.gif

Reply to Shadow703793

Hilarious list of gripes about XP in chronological order at the link below. In particular though pay attention closer to the bottom of the page as that's when XPs coming out party was. Many similar complaints as now by the looks of it, especially from the technology writers.

http://www.computergripes.com/WindowsXP.html

Jack, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't XP also confusing as to what OS to purchase? I concede that Vista has too many options IMO, but before XP wasn't it just a single OS for work (2k) and another for home(Win98)? I ask because I didn't know anyone at the time that went 2k for home and I dragged my feet on upgrading to XP. Well into SP1 matter of fact.

Message quoted 2 times

Reply to vangvace

vangvace wrote :

I didn't know anyone at the time that went 2k for home and I dragged my feet on upgrading to XP. Well into SP1 matter of fact.

That's dragging your feet? I upgraded (oh yes, really upgraded) from ME when SP2 was quite old.

EDIT: typo

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by randomizer on 02-16-2008 at 10:14:32 AM

Reply to randomizer

vtr99 wrote :

vtr99 wrote :
Guess you didn't read the rest of the article, or many of the other links I posted did you? Vista has been officially banned by a number of federal agencies, including the DOT, the FAA, and the NIST. The majority of federal agencies have not officially banned Vista, but their position is that they have no plan to adopt Vista. This is the same for virtually all large corporations, with the exception of Citi Bank. I have a friend who is a VP at Citi, and he says the migration has been put on hold due to compatibility issues. Furthermore 95% of all large corporations have reversed moves to Linux. The company I work for being one of them. We had more than a dozen Linux servers 3 years ago, and are now down to 3. These machines run Red Hat, and will be out the door soon.

First off, did you read and/or comprehend the links you posted or did you "MSCE" them? The FAA falls under the DOT, so that's all of 2 agencies (DOT and NIST) out how many in the fed? What let me guess in your world there is only 2. Only two links talked about federal agencies banning Vista and they both are talking about DOT and NIST. One of those two also delves into some school districts not changing over. One involved Adobe not fully patching old software for Vista use. Requiring people to, shocking for a software company, to buy new software. Then there's the one where Vista machines and Linux servers don't play well and it being both sides fault. The rest was writers whining that Vista was different, didn't like it, and (shockingly) wasn't god's gift to OS out of the box, just like XP when it rolled out. Being a "MSCE" and degreed I'd kinda expect you to know that, but then again I guess not...

I'm still waiting for you to provide the links that talk about other Federal agencies not planning on going Vista? Or is this watercooler rumor and FUD?

but on with the thread...
The following is a decent article talking about companies testing Vista before jumping (shockingly smart). About half are testing by their numbers and many are waiting for Win7 before deciding according to the article.
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscen [...] _says.html

And for the save XP zealots...

Quote :

In September, Microsoft had to extend the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) license for XP for five more months through June 30, 2008, because of customer demand for the OS.

One nice thing I'm happy about is the WGA kill switch being gone after SP1... supposedly

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by vangvace on 02-16-2008 at 10:35:29 AM

Reply to vangvace

randomizer wrote :

That's dragging your feet? I upgraded (oh yes, really upgraded) from ME when SP2 was quite old.

EDIT: typo

SP2 came out about a week after I upgraded... but yeah I really didn't want to give up Win98 for the new and flashy XP. (Sound familiar?) I don't remember the game but that's what made me finally cave and upgrade. I've only played with Vista a little on an in-laws laptop, but I decided to install Vista64 (OEM) on my new machine. The games I play all work on the system from what I can tell and if not I'll just dual-boot with XP if I need to. Upgrading office isn't an issue for me because it's only $20 thanks to my employer.

Reply to vangvace

JackNaylorPE wrote :

.........

At that point I will suspend any buying until 3rd / 4th quarter of 2009. When the buy Vista and get free upgrade to Win 2007 comes out, I figure:

1. 64 bit drivers will be available for all my stuff.
2. 64 bit programs will be able to actually take advantage of the 64 bit OS
3. Hardware improvements will more than offset any Vista performance penalties
4. I will be able to create an empty partition and install the atrocious Windows7 on it with my free upgrade coupon. I won't use it for 18-36 months while they get the bugaboos out and stable drivers get released....but heck what do I care, didn't cost me anything.
5. 16 GB of RAM will cost $50

That's a major problem with most x64 OS. I ran in to this issue when I upgraded to XP x64 and needed to run my wireless USB.

Message quoted 1 times

------------------------------

Reply to Shadow703793

Shadow703793 wrote :

That's a major problem with most x64 OS. I ran in to this issue when I upgraded to XP x64 and needed to run my wireless USB.

I found the same to be true. I wanted to go XP x64 on my home machine a while ago (when FarCry came out with the x64 version with upgraded graphics) but I couldn't find drivers for several devices.

With Vista x64, however, I've found that all of those drivers are now native except for my scanner, but I was able to download that.

Message quoted 1 times

------------------------------ MCITP, MCTS, MCP
Reply to carver_g

My experience has been that Vista 64 driver support is much better XPx64. But really nothing that I run has any issues with Vista64 and the extra memory is a huge plus with many of the apps that I run.

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Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
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EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

Actually in thinking about 64bit support I did recall the one app I needed that does not work with 64bit Windows(Vista or XP). Not a huge deal since my laptop has 32bit but it did remind me of why I despise aragant know-it-alls like vtr99. You see the guy who's in charge of all the desktop computers and support (not the servers though) at the company I work for is one of these "I'm a MSCE" guys too. He hates Vista and like vtr99 likes to go around telling people that nothing works with it. Since part of my job is to work from home we're provided with VPN software. When I inquired about Vista compatability I was told that no it wouldn't work so I'd either have to install XP on my computer or use the crappy company laptop. I was actually going to install a dual boot just for work, but fortunatly decided that maybe this guy didn't know as much as he likes to tell everybody he does. Well I found the Vista software pretty easily because it was right on the company website where I had to sign up for VPN access. I've since installed it on my laptop and it works fine. I'm just glad I didn't waste a couple hours installing an OS for 1 program that works fine on my PC already.

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-16-2008 at 10:06:38 PM

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
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Reply to purplerat

carver_g wrote :

I found the same to be true. I wanted to go XP x64 on my home machine a while ago (when FarCry came out with the x64 version with upgraded graphics) but I couldn't find drivers for several devices.

With Vista x64, however, I've found that all of those drivers are now native except for my scanner, but I was able to download that.

The software for my scanner is available for Vista x64, but not my camera (not really a problem since I have a card reader). but not my USB wireless connection (both XP and Vista x64) are not supported :cry: .

------------------------------

Reply to Shadow703793

Right now it's kind of a trade off when using 64bit, but obviously it's moving more and more in the direction of 64bit. But that's why I prefer Vista; going forward it's much more likely that support for things like your wireless USB will come to Vista64 before XPx64. XPx64 was never a comercial OS, really more of a stop-gap OS. In reality XP Pro x64 is more like ME then Vista is. Anyways do you have a link to that Wireless USB? I'd like to check it out. I want to get one, but will obviously have to be concerned about 64bit support.

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
4GB OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 915Mhz
EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

vangvace wrote :

First off, did you read and/or comprehend the links you posted or did you "MSCE" them? The FAA falls under the DOT, so that's all of 2 agencies (DOT and NIST) out how many in the fed? What let me guess in your world there is only 2. Only two links talked about federal agencies banning Vista and they both are talking about DOT and NIST. One of those two also delves into some school districts not changing over. One involved Adobe not fully patching old software for Vista use. Requiring people to, shocking for a software company, to buy new software. Then there's the one where Vista machines and Linux servers don't play well and it being both sides fault. The rest was writers whining that Vista was different, didn't like it, and (shockingly) wasn't god's gift to OS out of the box, just like XP when it rolled out. Being a "MSCE" and degreed I'd kinda expect you to know that, but then again I guess not...

I'm still waiting for you to provide the links that talk about other Federal agencies not planning on going Vista? Or is this watercooler rumor and FUD?

but on with the thread...
The following is a decent article talking about companies testing Vista before jumping (shockingly smart). About half are testing by their numbers and many are waiting for Win7 before deciding according to the article.
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscen [...] _says.html

And for the save XP zealots...

Quote :

In September, Microsoft had to extend the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) license for XP for five more months through June 30, 2008, because of customer demand for the OS.

One nice thing I'm happy about is the WGA kill switch being gone after SP1... supposedly

You seem very poorly informed for someone claiming to have an IT background. The number of people, corporations, and government agencies planning to adopt Vista has been steadily decreasing since it's launch. If you don't know this, you have your head in the sand! The bottom line is that Vista is a turkey, and anyone who knows anything about what is happening in IT understands this.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id, [...] ticle.html

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] _pace.html

http://dotnet.org.za/codingsanity/ [...] ws-xp.aspx

http://peterhgregory.wordpress.com [...] ssed-over/

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23 [...] -says-ent/

P.S.

CDW...LOL Are you kidding me? I did see the full article, but if you don't understand marketing propaganda when you see it, you really lose all respect. CDW want to sell all the Vista software it can before the bottom falls out...

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] great.html

The 2%-3% figure quoted by Forrester Research is far more credible, and unbiased I might add.

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] _pace.html

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by vtr99 on 02-17-2008 at 07:01:47 PM

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Reply to vtr99

purplerat wrote :

Actually in thinking about 64bit support I did recall the one app I needed that does not work with 64bit Windows(Vista or XP). Not a huge deal since my laptop has 32bit but it did remind me of why I despise aragant know-it-alls like vtr99. You see the guy who's in charge of all the desktop computers and support (not the servers though) at the company I work for is one of these "I'm a MSCE" guys too. He hates Vista and like vtr99 likes to go around telling people that nothing works with it. Since part of my job is to work from home we're provided with VPN software. When I inquired about Vista compatability I was told that no it wouldn't work so I'd either have to install XP on my computer or use the crappy company laptop. I was actually going to install a dual boot just for work, but fortunatly decided that maybe this guy didn't know as much as he likes to tell everybody he does. Well I found the Vista software pretty easily because it was right on the company website where I had to sign up for VPN access. I've since installed it on my laptop and it works fine. I'm just glad I didn't waste a couple hours installing an OS for 1 program that works fine on my PC already.

Well, at least we can spell...lol

http://searchwinit.techtarget.com/ [...] 97,00.html

http://searchwinit.techtarget.com/ [...] 15,00.html

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Reply to vtr99

Quote :

at least we can spell...lol

Spelling doesn't do much good when you have the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader, which has been pointed out in regards to you by multiple people in this thread.

P.S.
I wouldn't be picking other people's spelling and grammer and then using 'LOL'. What are you a 12 year old girl?

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-17-2008 at 07:30:28 PM

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Reply to purplerat

purplerat wrote :

Quote :

at least we can spell...lol

Spelling doesn't do much good when you have the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader, which has been pointed out in regards to you by multiple people in this thread.

P.S.
I wouldn't be picking other people's spelling and grammer and then using 'LOL'. What are you a 12 year old girl?

Well if I were you would look like an even bigger fool....ROTFL

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Reply to vtr99

vtr99 wrote :

You seem very poorly informed for someone claiming to have an IT background. The number of people, corporations, and government agencies planning to adopt Vista has been steadily decreasing since it's launch. If you don't know this, you have your head in the sand! The bottom line is that Vista is a turkey, and anyone who knows anything about what is happening in IT understands this.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id, [...] ticle.html

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] _pace.html

http://dotnet.org.za/codingsanity/ [...] ws-xp.aspx

http://peterhgregory.wordpress.com [...] ssed-over/

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23 [...] -says-ent/

P.S.

CDW...LOL Are you kidding me? I did see the full article, but if you don't understand marketing propaganda when you see it, you really lose all respect. CDW want to sell all the Vista software it can before the bottom falls out...

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] great.html

The 2%-3% figure quoted by Forrester Research is far more credible, and unbiased I might add.

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/con [...] _pace.html

Actually I never said I had an IT background nor make it sound like god's gift to my workplace... I just have a network background. I'm not and never claimed to be a server guy nor tech support. I just mess with telephone and network switches and routers for a living.

But since we're throwing out links on businesses slow migration...
http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18821819 A year in and less than 10% moved to XP...
http://www.news.com/Analysts-Slow- [...] 99314.html server OS upgrade slow from NT4 to 2k or 2003
http://www.builderau.com.au/news/s [...] 445,00.htm The slow road to Windows XP. 2005/06/15 "Use of Microsoft Windows XP has grown inside corporations, but a new study shows that nearly half of business PCS are still running the older Windows 2000."
http://www.computergripes.com/WindowsXP.html again in case you missed that XP wasn't all that great in the beginning either

So almighty MSCE person... You hate Vista. We get it. You are also sounding like a broken record. The same broken record that was playing when XP came out. The same broken record that was playing when 2k came out. Hell the same broken record that comes with every new OS. "It's bloated." "I need a system upgrade" "compatibility"

Win7 appears to be a 2010/2011 release if MS if lucky. Will it be better than the previous generations? Most likely. Will it stumble out the gate. Most likely. Will it be met with the same hatred as every other new MS product. Yes

Where is the proof to the federal agency claims you've spouted off? Can you even find any more? Here's a list to help you... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_ [...] l_agencies

Message quoted 2 times

------------------------------ Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Reply to vangvace

Maybe in all your "MSCE" wisdom you can clue me in to how you being a 12 year old girl would make a fool out of me? You've added nothing of any substance to this thread other then to proclaim you intellectual superiority over anybody who likes Vista. I'm pretty confident that a jr high student could easily manage to log on to a online forum and post a bunch of links. They could probably spell better than me too considering that it would be part of their 7th grade curriculum were as in my daily life I only need to be close enough that spellcheck picks it up.
You're entire argument has been "I know more than you and if you like/use Vista you're a stupid poopy head!". Not only that but you've also been completely ignorant of what the argument is(this goes back to that whole reading comprhension thing). I for one have never argued that businesses should use Vista and have even stated that I both understand and agree with why they don't. Instead I've just pointed out how I personally like Vista for gaming, multi-media, multi-tasking and other various HOME uses. But you insist on responding to me with articles that have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. Yes I do get offended why I hear/read lies like 10% of software being compatible with Vista. People like you vtr think that because you think you know more than others that you can just lie to them because it's in what you believe to be their own best interest.

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
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Reply to purplerat

Quote :

Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Funny! Did you add that just for this thread? Is it just me or does anybody else notice that a disproportionate number of people with these certifications (or atleast those who brag about them) are high school drop outs? I would think a college degree would seem a little more impressive. So when see people bragging about having passed one test or course it makes me think they didn't get very far in any formal education.

Message quoted 2 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-17-2008 at 09:33:41 PM

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Reply to purplerat

at my jobs certs are usefull because ms gives us discounts so we can charge out customers a bit more money

Reply to xnamerxx

purplerat wrote :

Quote :

Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Funny! Did you add that just for this thread? Is it just me or does anybody else notice that a disproportionate number of people with these certifications (or atleast those who brag about them) are high school drop outs? I would think a college degree would seem a little more impressive. So when see people bragging about having passed one test or course it makes me think they didn't get very far in any formal education.

Certs are good for getting a job because they look great on paper, but in reality thats all they do for you.

Message quoted 2 times

Reply to randomizer

randomizer wrote :

Certs are good for getting a job because they look great on paper, but in reality thats all they do for you.

That's why most employers require X number of years of experience to be accompanied with a certification.

Message quoted 2 times

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Reply to purplerat

Amazing! 11 Pages and ~5104 reads!

------------------------------

Reply to Shadow703793

randomizer wrote :

Certs are good for getting a job because they look great on paper, but in reality thats all they do for you.

purplerat wrote :

That's why most employers require X number of years of experience to be accompanied with a certification.

Agreed.

------------------------------

Reply to Shadow703793

purplerat wrote :

That's why most employers require X number of years of experience to be accompanied with a certification.

Catch 22 if you don't already have experience.

Reply to randomizer

Ah, MCSEs...

Message quoted 2 times

------------------------------ Upcoming Overdue Build: Dual-socket workstation, ~32 GB DDR3, OS on a fast SSD, high-end GPU, all wrapped up in a huge tower case. Coming H2 2011.

Yes, I am actually still running the Pentium III 1.0B Coppermine in the picture.
Reply to MU_Engineer

I should apply, I think I am pretty good at those "administration" tasks.

Reply to randomizer

vangvace wrote :

Actually I never said I had an IT background nor make it sound like god's gift to my workplace... I just have a network background. I'm not and never claimed to be a server guy nor tech support. I just mess with telephone and network switches and routers for a living.

But since we're throwing out links on businesses slow migration...
http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18821819 A year in and less than 10% moved to XP...
http://www.news.com/Analysts-Slow- [...] 99314.html server OS upgrade slow from NT4 to 2k or 2003
http://www.builderau.com.au/news/s [...] 445,00.htm The slow road to Windows XP. 2005/06/15 "Use of Microsoft Windows XP has grown inside corporations, but a new study shows that nearly half of business PCS are still running the older Windows 2000."
http://www.computergripes.com/WindowsXP.html again in case you missed that XP wasn't all that great in the beginning either

So almighty MSCE person... You hate Vista. We get it. You are also sounding like a broken record. The same broken record that was playing when XP came out. The same broken record that was playing when 2k came out. Hell the same broken record that comes with every new OS. "It's bloated." "I need a system upgrade" "compatibility"

Win7 appears to be a 2010/2011 release if MS if lucky. Will it be better than the previous generations? Most likely. Will it stumble out the gate. Most likely. Will it be met with the same hatred as every other new MS product. Yes

Where is the proof to the federal agency claims you've spouted off? Can you even find any more? Here's a list to help you... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_ [...] l_agencies

At 10% after the first year, this would make XP 300% to 500% more successful than Vista. Since I was involved with our migration to 2000, and then XP, I can tell you the optimism was far greater than with Vista. But you go ahead and believe that Vista is going to be a big success, it makes no difference in what is actually happening.

Message quoted 1 times

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Reply to vtr99

purplerat wrote :

Quote :

Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Funny! Did you add that just for this thread? Is it just me or does anybody else notice that a disproportionate number of people with these certifications (or atleast those who brag about them) are high school drop outs? I would think a college degree would seem a little more impressive. So when see people bragging about having passed one test or course it makes me think they didn't get very far in any formal education.

No not because of this thread. It's just something that I've noticed over the past 10ish years.

The two most recent that I've dealt with is a guy with his CCNA but couldn't program a telephone switch after three years on the job. He talked about his cert all the time, made it sound like everything was beneath him and his cert trumps all. The other is a guy who had A+, net+, ccnp, and one of the MS certs. Most of the shop didn't know he had any certs (including me) until his going away, yet he was the goto guy.

My all-time favorite "cert guy" though was while I was working on radar systems. He had his journeyman CET and went out to work on the equipment. Did his thing and powered the system back up, but forgot to hookup the liquid cooling hoses... half-mil later the system worked again. What makes it my all time favorite though is that he did this twice and still kept his job.

With all that said, I am looking forward to eventually getting some certs and my degree knocked out. They'll look great on my resume and wall... and that's about it. I should be complete by 2018 at the rate I'm going too. :pt1cable:

------------------------------ Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Reply to vangvace

MU_Engineer wrote :

Ah, MCSEs...

http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoo [...] 001546.gif

No need to wonder who has the last laugh here.... Have you bothered to check the average salary of an MCSE, or one who also holds a CCNA? How about with an MCSD, CCNP, or CCIE? My wife has a Pharm D.... Guess I should have put a photo of my home and cars as my avatar.... Sorry, but only the less intelligent would believe certifications mean little. But again I digress; this is really about the future of XP. If I haven't made my professional opinion clear, relatively few IT experts like Vista! Well, gotta get back to the LAN party....

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Reply to vtr99

vtr99 wrote :

At 10% after the first year, this would make XP 300% to 500% more successful than Vista. Since I was involved with our migration to 2000, and then XP, I can tell you the optimism was far greater than with Vista. But you go ahead and believe that Vista is going to be a big success, it makes no difference in what is actually happening.

So does that mean I'm not going to get my proof to your Federal fud?

don't forget your ball on the way home...

------------------------------ Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Reply to vangvace

MU_Engineer wrote :

Ah, MCSEs...

http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoo [...] 001546.gif

sorry was surfing and thought of your post :lol:

Message quoted 1 times

------------------------------ Why is it that the more somebody talks about what Certs they have the stupider they sound?

Reply to vangvace

purplerat wrote :

Jack please forgive me as I haven't gone through your whole post yet. But I'd argue that you new car analogy more or less impresses the unwillingness to change of humans...... Today's vehicles still look more like those of the 50s then anything that people have since envisioned as being the future of automobiles.

And Windows Vista bears a strong resemblance to Windows of the past. The sciences of ergonomics and physics to a large extent dictates the design of vehicles and the design of OS's. People's arms and legs have certain dimensions, having greater than 4 wheels adds no stability, and while they underlying technology evolves slowly, styles change very quickly. I once owned a 350SL....I bought it used. When the person opened the garage door my jaw dropped......this car was advertised as a 450 SL....one look and I knew it was 350. The chrome emblem on the back said it was a 450. It turned out that the owner had bought a 350 and soon after the 450 hit our shores. He felt cheated by the switch and went out and bought the new emblem so his friends and associates would see him driving around in the old model.

Odd part was only 512 350's were brought into the country. Slight styling differences, absence of more horse power robbing emissions controls, better gas mileage and most of all rarity made the 350 worth much more than the 450.

But regardless of what we say about how little or how much things change, the question remains.....how many people are gonna pay the same price for a 7 year old car as compared to a new car ? The original owner of my car was embarrassed having the older model and he wound up trying to make people believe he had the newer. A smarter , or better said "more well in formed" owner would have advertised that car as a 350 as it was worth more. That doesn't happen very often though. Rarity doesn't enter into OS selection but the other differences are comparable.

XP gets better mileage out of equipment, has more horsepower and doesn't have the equivalent of emissions controls dragging down its performance.

Reply to JackNaylorPE

Jack I think your analogy is getting a little far stretched, and you're missing the point. If you want to stick to the car analogy, what % of car owners actually own a current year model? Very few. What percentage of people own last years model? Probably not many more. In truth most people who own cars are a few years behind whats current.

Message quoted 1 times

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Reply to purplerat

vangvace wrote :

Jack, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't XP also confusing as to what OS to purchase? I concede that Vista has too many options IMO, but before XP wasn't it just a single OS for work (2k) and another for home(Win98)? I ask because I didn't know anyone at the time that went 2k for home and I dragged my feet on upgrading to XP. Well into SP1 matter of fact.

Was two Choices:

XP Home which was the upgrade path intended for Win9x users
XP pro which was the upgrade path intended for WinNT users

2 is a far cry from 8.

Message edited by JackNaylorPE on 02-18-2008 at 07:08:15 PM

Reply to JackNaylorPE

vangvace wrote :

sorry was surfing and thought of your post :lol:
http://www.chaobell.net/gallery/d/412-3/pwned.png

Yeah, I was thinking too. I bet most people who think certifications are worthless are the same ones complaining about the economy.

Message quoted 2 times

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Reply to vtr99

bobbknight wrote :

One of the things keeping many people from upgrading to Vista from XP is the cost of the upgrade. For most people $250 is alot to go from XP Pro to Vista Ultimate. I put mine off until MS offered the buy one get one free last month.

Worse, that's the upgrade price **IF** you have a valid retail version of XP. If you bought your computer with an OS, you aren't eligible for the upgrade price. Upgrades are also something not done in a corporate environment....it's literally cheaper to buy a new PC with Vista on it most of the time than to do an upgrade. Back in the day of Win95, InfoWorld did a study of 100 major corporations and they averaged between $2,500 and $4,500 in cost per upgrade. IT people have to show an ROI (return on investment). How do you have an ROI when the new OS is slower than the old one and you have those kinds of expenses ?

Message quoted 1 times

Reply to JackNaylorPE

vtr99 wrote :

Yeah, I was thinking too. I bet most people who think certifications are worthless are the same ones complaining about the economy.

You mean people smart enough to realize that the Canadian dollar being worth more than the US is not a good thing? (unless you live in Canada of course)

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
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EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

JackNaylorPE wrote :

Worse, that's the upgrade price **IF** you have a valid retail version of XP. If you bought your computer with an OS, you aren't eligible for the upgrade price. Upgrades are also something not done in a corporate environment....it's literally cheaper to buy a new PC with Vista on it most of the time than to do an upgrade. Back in the day of Win95, InfoWorld did a study of 100 major corporations and they averaged between $2,500 and $4,500 in cost per upgrade. IT people have to show an ROI (return on investment). How do you have an ROI when the new OS is slower than the old one and you have those kinds of expenses ?

Jack,
Doesn't that completely invalidate your analogy of choosing between a new car and a 7 year old car at the same price? If the new car costs substantially more wouldn't that make the old one more desirable to many people?

Message quoted 1 times

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Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
4GB OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 915Mhz
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Reply to purplerat

purplerat wrote :

Jack I think your analogy is getting a little far stretched, and you're missing the point. If you want to stick to the car analogy, what % of car owners actually own a current year model? Very few. What percentage of people own last years model? Probably not many more. In truth most people who own cars are a few years behind whats current.

It's been stretched but not by me. People who buy new cars generally fall into several categories:
-Peeps who swap out every year
-Peeps who swap out at end of lease period
-Peeps who swap out when thing no longer runs

They are buying new cars....almost 300 million PC's were sold. The question is not "how many peeps bought a new PC this year", it's "how many people walked back into the dealership when their car died or lease expired and said, "no I do NOT want a new car, but I am willing to pay new car prices for an old one".

It's never happened. Just like in the history of computing, we never saw 2/3 purchases of new computers being supplied with a 7 year old OS ? Even Windows ME had a better uptake rate than Vista.

Who's paying $3,850 for AutoCAD 2000 today ?
Who's paying $390 for Adobe Acrobat 4.0 ?
Who's paying $60 for Nero 3 or EZ CD Creator 4 ?
Who's paying $350 for Quickbooks Premier Professional 2001 Edition

Show me one other instance, in history, of such a large number of people specifically requesting that a 7 year old version of anything be supplied with their new thingamajig.

Reply to JackNaylorPE

You just pointed out yourself that Vista Ultamite cost twice as much as XP Pro. Also I'd really like to see where 67% of NEW PCs are being shipped with XP, not Vista and it's not related to cost. I doubt HP, DELL, Gateway, Sony etc are shipping 67% with XP. If it's coming from independent builders then XP would be a cheaper option.

Message quoted 1 times

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4GB OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 915Mhz
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Reply to purplerat

purplerat wrote :

Jack,
Doesn't that completely invalidate your analogy of choosing between a new car and a 7 year old car at the same price? If the new car costs substantially more wouldn't that make the old one more desirable to many people?

Your argument is kinda like Vista itself. Looks good on the surface of it, but fails under actual scrutiny.

My argument would, well I wouldn't say be invalidated but, have less relevancy, **if** the new car was costing substantially more, but the fact is, it isn't.

Let's check:

Here's my laptop:

http://www.pro-star.com/index.cfm? [...] d=66055627

As you can see, the default OS is Vista Home Premium. It's gonna cost me $35 more to get the 7 year old XP pro. Ah so you say that we going from a home to business version so it should cost more ? Well then how come Vista Business is only $30 more ??????

So no my analogy isn't knocked down at all. I woulda saved $5 buying my laptop with Vista Business than I would the way I got it w/ XP Pro.

At Dell it's the same price

http://configure.us.dell.com/dells [...] wggz&s=bsd

Reply to JackNaylorPE

purplerat wrote :

You just pointed out yourself that Vista Ultamite cost twice as much as XP Pro. Also I'd really like to see where 67% of NEW PCs are being shipped with XP, not Vista and it's not related to cost. I doubt HP, DELL, Gateway, Sony etc are shipping 67% with XP. If it's coming from independent builders then XP would be a cheaper option.

Er....Are you not perhaps not aware that the equivalent to XP Pro is not Vista "Ult-a-mite" but Vista Business ?????

Vista Ultimate is a "combo pack"....it includes all the media stuff from the home premium edition and all the business stuff from the Business Edition....and on top of that includes installation disks for both 32 bit and 64 bit OS's.

Save embarrassment and check those sites before posting. Dell for example has Vista Business and XP Pro for same price. ProStar has XP Pro for $5 more than Vista Business...see links in my above post.

As for where it says what's shipping, see the beginning of the thread.

Reply to JackNaylorPE

Er... maybe you should read your own post that I'm refering to. I'm sorry I didn't include the quote from bobbknight that you responded to in which the comparison in price is between XP Pro and Vista Ultimate:

Quote :

bobbknight wrote :

One of the things keeping many people from upgrading to Vista from XP is the cost of the upgrade. For most people $250 is alot to go from XP Pro to Vista Ultimate. I put mine off until MS offered the buy one get one free last month.

JackNaylor PE wrote:

Quote :

Worse, that's the upgrade price **IF** you have a valid retail version of XP....

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-18-2008 at 08:38:58 PM

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EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

purplerat wrote :

But compare hybrid vs gas, and most will chose gas even at the same price and with the obvious advantage of cheaper fuel.

Great comparison.....hybrid is a technology that sounds good.....there's a lot of arguments on both sides (for example carbon footprint of hybrid is actually larger than gas driven vehicle when manufacturing is figured in) but let's limit our discussion to the so called "savings". The fact is, the cost premium almost never gets paid back before people sell the car or the lease is up.

Let's look at a few:

http://hybrid.autobytel.com/conten [...] d_int/2168
http://hybrid.autobytel.com/conten [...] d_int/2168
http://hybrid.autobytel.com/conten [...] d_int/2168

Even the Honda Accord takes 7.9 years to give you the gas savings necessary to offset the Return on Investment. Take away the tax credit and that 7.9 goes to 12.4 years. Even one of the better ones, the Honda Civic, with it's 2.2 payback, when you take away the government subsidy, we talking 8.2 years.....most people don't keep a new car that long. The Ford escape has the best unsubsidized payback period and even that is 7.4 years, well longer than any lease period I am aware of. Even with gas prices climbing, we still haven't gotten to the point where you are gonna see that ROI within the typical lease period.

Same with Vista, we got lots of promises but they remain undelivered.....we needed government subsidies to make people buy hybrids, maybe MS should try that.

The 21st century is supposed to be the computer age but we've only had 1 OS in that time. So yes resistance to change plays a large role.

Reply to JackNaylorPE

Jack,
I'm not going to argue the car analogy any more because one you probably know a lot more about cars than I do and two cars and OSs are not the same. My whole point with that topic is that generally people are resistant to change. It seems that you agree since you have copied my "The 21st century is supposed to be the computer age but we've only had 1 OS in that time. So yes resistance to change plays a large role." without giving me the due credit.
But really that argument was never intended to be about what was better Vista or XP, just to point out that there may be other barriers blocking the rapid adoption of Vista. If you don't get it or refuse to agree, sorry I just don't see it as any more a debatable issue than Evolution. So I'm not going to continue with it.

Message quoted 1 times
Message edited by purplerat on 02-18-2008 at 09:03:56 PM

------------------------------ GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 v2.0
Intel Core2 Q6600 @ 3.3Ghz
4GB OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 915Mhz
EVGA 8800GTS 512MB G92
Reply to purplerat

Like most people, I'll switch to Vista eventually, not because I want to, but eventually I'll have to. The fact of the matter is, there is STILL no compelling reason to switch. XP does everything I want, even on my 5 year old laptop, not to mention my 2 year old P-4, and my 1 year old core 2 duo systems. Perhaps I'll go with Vista on my new quad core build this summer, after SP1 comes out.

When XP came out, I continued to use 98 for about 2 years, while the bugs were worked out of XP. I'll end up doing the same with Vista, but only on new builds. Its simply not worth the added cost to upgrade my older systems, which run quite well with XP.

The one thing MS didnt do with Vista, is give me a reason to upgrade. DX-10 just does not do it, especially when there are STILL so few games that take full advantage of it, and even then, only bleeding edge systems can take advantage of the visuals. Add in the DRM issues with Vista, and the net gain is a negative incentive.

It seems to me, that MS produced a product without there being a NEED. All of the improvements (and there are some improvements) could easily have been incorporated into XP, without the massive costs put into Vista.

Message quoted 1 times

Reply to Mojoejojo

Focus On

Save XP! - Page 9

Forum Homebuilt Systems : General Homebuilt - Save XP!