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I know for a fact that engineering samples of Barcelona beat, and I mean destroyed Intel quads in Q2 of 2007.


I guess there are IMC and clock problems with the production runs.



Although, to be fair, even B2 Barces beat out the Intels comfortably (clock-for-clock) in benchmarks reflecting the kinda software being run.

You can't laud Intel for making a logical progression and then fault AMD for making a logical progression. The Phenom core is a logical progression from the Athlon X2 core. It's 17% to 25% faster per core. IMHO, they ran into issues at 65nm that they did not anticipate but were too far along to ditch in favor of waiting for 45nm. That's just a guess, but it describes the B2 errata, thermal issues and reports of one bad core alongside of promises of a triple core based upon a Phenom with one core disabled.

Intel did their logical progression from the Pentium M to the desktop for C2D. They relied upon the fsb to make a glued together quad core workable and then ditched SOI at 45nm. AMD's tied to SOI for the first 45nm and they're supposedly extending the pipelines to get clocks higher. It might work for Phenom where it failed for Prescott.

AMD will have a new architecture, but it won't be Swift. Fusion will be one R770 core with 3 45nm Phenom cores, if what I've read online pans out. They don't have enough engineers to do Swift and Bulldozer, so the new architecture's on hold. There's less money to be made in the enthusiast desktop market and more to be made in both the mainstream OEM, budget gamer and notebook markets.

So, I think AMD's making the right choice and will have their new process in line for 32nm Phenom, if not the second version of 45nm Phenom. Once that's in place, then they can work on a new architecture to take on Nehalem in the enthusiast desktop market.

I wonder what TV would be like if IBM purchased AMD/ATI and threw their marketing budget in the mix. We might end up with another Blue Man Group (prolly green), but would more civilians purchase AMD/ATI? How about TV ads for ATI? Or Nvidia for that matter.

I don't really think lengthening the pipeline will help Phenom Clock or OC higher. It's possible, but unlikely from what I've seen with my own experiences. Granted the issues I see now may be fixed in B3, and then the 45nm Cx revisions. Just like from personal experience with my own phenom be I can tell you what some of the bottlenecks that are holding back the core design in current retail versions are.

Yeah, it's about right, I remember AMD starting R&D on barcelona back in Athlon/ XP days. By the time C2D came out, it was already waaay too late for them to scrap and redesign. They were pretty much forced to release phenom in it's current state because it was either release new product to try and stop bleeding cash, or be up poop creek without a paddle. Barce seems to do ok against Penryn and C2d in the server workstation world, trading blows depending on the applications, but agena isn't doin so well in the desktop world. Problem with barcelona being the stop ship. Bulldozer may end up being the counter to C2D/Penryn. But hopefully it will also be competitive with Nehalem at that point, since I don't know when the last time the cross license was renewed was, Intel may still have an advantage with having better SSE instructions. Granted that may be why AMD is trying to jump ahead on them with their SSE5 implementation.

To make it a little more interesting, look at history. AMD's Nexgen cpu (k6) and the EV6 (Alpha cpu) technology, really more borrowed then new. Seem to try to use the same OLD tech on new cpus. Failed becuase you can only go so far with it without changing it. Intel is actually similar (but different) more like they did made it themselves, but went back in history. The p3 was 33% faster then the p4, but the p3 really couldn't get any more mhz out of it. P3 was "reinvented" as Pentium M (new die size), then Core then core2. One part Intel did change, was how many instructions per cycle it could do. That is really the key, NOT mhz/ghz. There are cpus doing well over 10-20 instructions per cycle (RISC), while Intel and AMD are doing more like 1-2 per cycle (sorry can't remember what the current cpus can do...2-3 per cycle?).
AMD did drop the ball, but not really anyone at amd anymore to create a "new" cpu, like a nexgen or Athlon type. They seem to have the mindset for "average" users instead of the old "high-end/beat Intel" users. Not a good move, it might look good on paper, but having that highend cpu (even if very few buy it), does give the impression amd cpus are better. Pretty much what Intel is enjoying now. ppl getting Intel cpus even though the old x2 6400+ is faster (at least against the E6600/E6550 or slower cpus).
AMD should have waited until they at least could beat their own X2 6400+ cpu. That's just sad. (Sorta like the P4 coming out with P3 cpus stomping them....remember that article here at Tom's?

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO A TROLL Its me not turpit

Look at the end of the day, I am steering towards Intel at the moment due to the fact that their desk top processors are all intense and purposes are much better...

I got steered away when they dropped socket 939 which I ran till a few days ago when my hard drive packed up and went to a Intel Processor. Yeah I feel cheated on that one but hey ho thats life...

But I am sick of people comming on shouting out how good AMD is when clearly they have had some problems and they're not. How much money Intel will lose bla bla bla bla.....

Amd have lost this battle on current processors, period...... Anything they say about the Phenom - ie how good it is, how faster it is, has so far not appeared to be true....

Its a shame this has happend, as I would of welcomed a processor that would perform from some one else other than Intel.


Intel are not evil. Just a successful business which have bent a few rules by the looks of it, but then again are you saying that all successful business dont break the rules... nah...

Also this has happend with Microsoft. So what they included Media Player and Messenger and Internet Explorer with Windows.... Never stopped people loading Netscape did it....

If you buy a Ford Car, you get ford windows, ford stereo, ford seats etc etc

Generally speaking, most people want Intel processors because they ( pcs ) have grown up with Intel being mainly inside.

Most people couldnt give a turd what else was there appart from it being Intel...

Given the chance AMD would have done exactly the same to get further up the sales ladder....

Thunderman its Eternity btw use a dictionary....

By all means remain a AMD fan and watching you following AMD is like following Scotland untill they win the world cup.



Which will never happen..

I think a lot of people are in for a big suprise.
Right now, a lot of software has not been optimized for phenom. Intel made sure it was all optimized for core2.
Personally, I prefer AMD as #2. It means a great chip at rock bottom prices.

Makes you wonder how different it is going from a Single core cpu with an IMC to a dual core cpu with an IMC - no shared cache, no independant memory controllers, whats so different about going to 4 cores? and 3 for that matter? Perhaps they had scaling issues after the two cores without a L3 cache between it all?

Well, I don't come on like Thunderman. He's a fanboy just like I said you and TC are. Maybe you guys just like to pick on whichever company is down? Without bugs, Phenom's not that bad, even if it's not that great. It has it's place in OEM's and budget quad core builds.

Personally, I think that "winning" in either CPU or GPU performance as judged by overclocking is a fanboy attitude. It's not about winning, but about how market needs are met and how sales go. Intel wins on total sales, but also did so at a time when their Prescott was the Phenom of it's day. Now, why was that?

IMHO, AMD never had a level playing field. Time for the regulators and lawyers to sort it all out. All AMD can do is sell enough CPU's to be profitable.

A fictitious person is not evil, but evil decisions can be made by those who run business entities that benefit from being a fictitious person. Intel's OEM rebate program kept AMD's share of the market artificially low. Now that the program's history, it's OEM sales that will bring AMD back.

Note that OEM's go for the most mainstream, least enthusiast choices because that's what their customers want. Prescott in one generation, Phenom's in another.

People go for free over cost. Netscape could not compete and is no more. When a free product came along that really beat IE, then people went for it. I only use IE when I must go to Microsoft for patches, etc. Otherwise, I use Firefox.

There's nothing wrong with integrating features into the OS, even if that puts pressure on companies that charge for more featured programs. What was wrong with Microsoft is that they wouldn't let OEM's use Windows 3.11 unless they also went MS-DOS, even though there were other flavors that worked better. I used DR DOS for years and IBM had their own DOS too. Since Microsoft stiffed IBM on developing OS, we've been stuck with many flavors of Windows by Microsoft, with lackadaisical patches and more questionable features as time went by.

Yet, all that is not Intel vs. AMD. Different business model, different outcome. Intel doesn't seek a monopoly, just to keep their competition second rate in market share, even in generations where they are first rate in product.

Why are you responding to Thunderman in a post you direct at me? Not enough sleep? Too much alcohol?

I appreciate the Scotch Irish side of my family (Clan Somerville motto: Fear God in Life), but I'm not into sports, and if I were it wouldn't be soccer. Never could figure out the rules. I've been to baseball games in years past, but never wanted to see football up close, not American or European.

Fanboys of either AMD or Intel never get it. Business is not about winning. It's not a football match. It's about delivering a good product free of defects that meets a demand while not engaging in unethical practices that deprive your competitor of access to a fair market. It's competition, but not the winner take all of a sports match.

One of these days, after I retire, I'll have to get to Scotland to see the place where a Somerville allegedly defeated the wyrm of Linton. Folklore is fun, especially when it's medieval and you can't get any more medieval than slaying a wyrm, wyvern or dragon.

Can't make money with rock bottom prices though.

Word, Playa.

Oooops I meant Firefox, not Netscape - was having a flashback sorry .....


Regarding Thunderman, I was correcting his spelling.... But I was tired........ 3 kids wear me out...

I just can't see why Microsoft are being penalised for putting in all the necessaries. As far as I am concerned, Internet Explorer 7 suites me fine, I use I-tunes and the rest is Microsoft. Just a shame Lotus 123 is not around as i pefered that as a Spreadsheet to excel, but hey ho...

I never said you come on like Thunderman, Yipsl, your one of the goodens who dont bleat on about how good AMD are and how evil Intel is...Im sick of this throw down the throat attitude when some times the case that he rants on about is just not thought out....

He goes on like a AMD evangelist..... He seriously needs to calm down in life and look at it in a different perspective....

Intel will be around and so will AMD ( even if they need IBM's help or someone elses)..... So he needs to get over it.......

The K8 was designed with dual core in mind from the get-go.


The path to a monolithic quad was first laid down at that stage.

Well, if the EU buys your factories for you, IBM and Intel do all your hard work for you, other companies build your parts, and you have EU goons attempting to steal money from your larger, superior competitor to keep you alive, can you really go out of business even if your prices are low?

Sweet, where do I get one without bugs?


I love how AMD fanboys go from performance mode to "value" mode when AMD doesn't have the fastest products.

A few years ago I would have asked the same question about Intel.

I don't think they made the right choice by releasing a substandard chip. In regards to what AMD will do in the future who knows............but........time aint on their side. But yea we will get a good chip from them when the 32nm Phenoms come out