AMDs Financial Day tomorrow, some BD info coming - Page 3

Sounds to me like it's a half-node marketed as a full-node...

As always, the devil is in the details. I know what vern is missing lol but I'm not gonna give the details, I'd rather watch him scratch his head wondering what is going on.

Honestly vern, I think it shows just how far removed from the industry you are. You didn't even know that TSMC were on FULL node at 40nm? You have continued to dismiss it even though I have given links on various sites *including* TSMC's own site which clearly states it is a FULL node.

As for Freudian issues...lol I have *no idea* what you are on about but seeing as you've been talking *** this whole thread that isn't really unexpected either .

http://www.edn.com/blog/1690000169/post/380023838.html

READ. Try to understand what is going on here - clearly you missed it first time around.

listen idiot, transitional nodes are more of a recent developement, when the entire industry talks about nodes and refer to transitioning to full nodes its always 65nm 45nm,32nm,22nm etc etc . youre baiting this issue is rediculous and you look rediculous for it; im done. I had rather enjoyed sharing ideas with people who know what the hell a full node is but your insolent annoying and pathetic attempt to fake a pair of balls has pretty much disgusted me.

I have shown you your err and you refuse it , I explained the relativity of the terminology and you keep acting like thats not the fact when it has been longer than either of us have been alive.

Youre a person whose potential is buried in the *** of your lack of realization. You really should consider conversation as a form of exchanging ideas rather than trying to appear as you more than you are. So far you rate in and out of being a muttering savante more than a person with a fair amount of investment in reading up on tech.

ooooh idiot

I'm done with you vern, you're full of *** and can't take a beating like a real man. This is the 2nd time you've lost your composure when beaten by a girl...it must *suck* to be you.

You don't like Baron Matrix huh. You know, that doesn't suprise me one bit.

You delight in belittling people with what you think is your amazing brain - but you aint so smart sunshine. You play it well, get very aggressive and put down any resistance with your words.

But you know, a smart person once told me that there is always somebody smarter than yourself. Your problem is, you don't believe it. That's why you dont like Baron Matrix and why you resort to name calling everytime you lose to me. You just can't take it, can you?

/pat.

This guy is flawed big time. There is no doubt he is smart, but he cannot accept when he is wrong even with the evidence plainly staring him in the face.

TSMC's 40nm is full node - they built the node as a full node. Their 32nm is a half node of their 40nm and their 28nm will be their next full node.


There are literally hundreds of not thousands of articles out there proving this - including from TSMC themselves - yet Vern here just refuses to accept it because it's not what he knows.

*That* sums it up.

Dont walk in on conversations you arent capable of understanding. you always pull out the pwned by a girl thing which makes you a sexist bigot. there isnt enough time in infinity to wade through small minds like that, and its never worth it as I have to my strain, exhausted as many efforts as I care to in being polite and simply do not chose to be polite anymore since you keep turning fiction in as fact, and vis versa.

I think what I am trying to say is excercise you frail self image with people that care , if you get in my face trying to best men as you say i will not oblige your sex and treat you as a man since that is where you think youd rather be.

I dont care for your dialogue and if youd be a decent person and not address me even by sleight of hand I would return the favor. i really dont care about you or your thouyghts I am here to speak with friends among whom you arent counted nor is your opinion in my dialogues ever warranted .

you dont exist to me and I hope youll be as noble in return , if you insist on stalking my conversations after this I will diligently report the offense every time.

I dont know you and I dont like you nor do I plan on changing that for you or anypone else. now lets succeed in not speaking and I will feel alot better. Theres not one thing you have ever said to me that I found useful or interesting i dont suspect that day will ever arrive. You think im insulting? I think that Im kinder to strangers than I am to long time friends and family. And that only because I know there is only a short period of tolerance I will have to exert on their behalf.

Ask my cousin but you know what she tuned up her mind and now were all peachy. Did it bother me to make her cry? nope it was her ignorance and lack of rationale that caused the tears, she later agreed. Im not sympathetic at all and in my view , compassion is served with pain or lessons dont get learned, mercy still leaves scars and salvation comes from understanding, and that by hard work.

You could say I am rather heartless, and to you that could be true, But ultimate truth has no emotion it is what it is be it death or life.

exactly my point john.


So what are they referring to? 55nm-40nm-28nm are all full node shrinks at the relative half node of the rest of the industry.meanwhile etch equipment manufacturers are focused on full nodes 32nm 22nm 11nm 5nm .
Why did the half node happen? if i Had to guess it was becasue of the difficuties introduced as quantum effects became pronounced the half node was a milestone of progress toward the full node and the offloads to other industries become tremendous because they could get in on less expensive processes since prime node developers arent focused so much on that. half nodes are a way of being competitive at a lower cost.

leading edge nodes will always follow the current trend and were looking at 32nm 22nm 11nm and then 5nm where several years ago IBM had said smaller nodes would be hitting a wall of sorts without alot of exotic materials to compensate for the 5 atom long gate length whose transistors would be at the mercy of the quantum effects of electrons and leakage due to that would be massive without said exotic solutions.


FYI jay, TSMC denies 40nm yield issues.

I wont produce links, but 40nm was 6months late at best, had issues, and still havnt been corrected, thats a year out from planned,5 months released, and still problems.
The half nodes were used in the gfx industry to have an advantage, as growth there is faster than what we see in cpus.
Call them new steppings, at times theyre just dumb shrinks, other times theyre actually tweaks and additions plus shrink.
You dont have to think long to recognize power as 1 of a gpus enemies, and the main player as to why gpus use half nodes.

Here what Ive heard. The yields arent that great, decent but meh.
They were supposed to have new working lines going with new equipment, but, like at first with the old equipment, it had issues, bad yields etc.
This explains the flat response, and NOT their projections, and it is a failure in terms of production capacity, which was to have been fine with the newer equipment coming on line.
So, yea, both statements are true. Theyre flat, because theyre still producing the same they were before, but are still having troubles with 40nm because they cant get their new lines in order, and thats the way I understand it, and is why we still see a trickle of cards moving thru the channel.
nVidias mobile solutions are also using 40nm, putting pressure on availability for both companies.
By the end of the month, the new lines should be going from what Ive heard as well

True, and it has implications down the road, especially with a new player in town

Half-nodes have been around for quite some time, but they are newer than full nodes.

Nodes
1. 10 um: 1971 (not official ITRS node)
2. 3 um: 1975 (not official ITRS node)
3. 1.5 um: 1982 (not official ITRS node)
4. 1 um: 1985 (first official ITRS node)
5. 800 nm: 1989- full node
6. 600 nm: 1994- full node
7. 350 nm: 1995- full node
8. 250 nm: 1997- full node
9. 180 nm: 1999- full node
10. 150 nm: 2000- half node, possibly the first major half-node process.
11. 130 nm: 2001- full node
12. 110 nm: 2003- half node
13. 90 nm: 2004- full node
14. 80 nm: 2006- half node
15. 65 nm: 2006- full node
16. 55 nm: 2007- half node
17. 45 nm: 2008- full node
18. 40 nm: 2009- half node

19. 32 nm: anticipated in 2010, full node
20. 28 nm: anticipated in 2010/2011, half-node
21. 22 nm: anticipated 2011/2012, full-node
22. 20 nm: anticipated 2012?, half-node
23. 16 nm: anticipated 2013-2014?, full-node, expected to be the last Si-based node
24. 14 nm: would be the half-node between 16 nm and 11 nm, little discussion on it yet
25. 11 nm: anticipated ???, last ITRS-defined full node, probably requires nanotechnology.

Thanks MU for correcting me. But half nodes were years after AMD intel were founded which is more to the point
I was ignorantly addressing.

In what way do you mean?
I mean, what happens when atoms are heated?

i will conceed and cease referring to it as such if you provide detailed linkage please, i was under the impression that electrons moved through the lattice and that was why electromigration happend. Its good to know if I am wrong in that so that I dont speak in terms that annoy people that know better.

I have only been an avid fan of this in research for 5-ish years and learned from massive reading and not been exactly throrough as a student would have been in a classroom. If it wasnt for people like yourself correcting my understanding id know diddly.

I node it also, but didnt bring it up

I node it, you newt it too

ok to avoid splitting hairs here were agreed that as one electron moves the one from behind it takes its place , here I demonstrated a physics professors description saying electrons do move, what you bring up is an interesting and often overlooked aspect.
We know that electricity is produced at dams by magnetic means Does it create electrons? no it charges them and causes them to flow in a current, where in a circuit the electron is always where it originally was albeit from the atom next to it and so on, every atom handing its electron forward.

if youd like to expound on this please do or just provide a link to something that you feel is representative of the subject.

http://resources.schoolscience.co. [...] h2pg2.html

How current flows



Copper is a good conductor because, like other metals, it contains free electrons. Free electrons are also known as conduction electrons. Each copper atom provides a single free electron, so there are as many free electrons as atoms.

Free electron concentration in copper n = 8.5 × 1028 per m3



When a voltage is connected across a piece of copper, it pushes the free electrons so that they flow through the metal – that's an electric current.









Picture 3.4 Close the switch to apply voltage: electrons start to flow through. Increase the voltage and they drift faster.


About current

Notice that the electrons start to flow as soon as the switch is closed. The message to get them moving is instantaneous (in fact it travels at the speed of light). However, the electrons themselves travel much more slowly. So how does the current come on everywhere as soon as the switch is closed?
It is because the free electrons are already spread through the wire. As soon as the switch is closed, there is a force on all the electrons, which gets them moving. It's a bit like a bicycle chain. As soon as you start pedalling, the back wheel starts to turn. The force on the back wheel is instantaneous even though the individual links are travelling at a visible speed. But because the links are already spread around the chain 'circuit' they all start to move at the same time.




Electron velocities

The animation above is slightly deceptive because it shows the electrons as being stationary when there is no voltage.
In reality, even when no current flows through a piece of copper, the free electrons are moving rapidly about. Their speed is about 106 m s-1; that's 3000 times the speed of sound in air! However, since they are moving at random, there is no net flow of electrons in any particular direction and so there is no current.

When a voltage is applied, the electrons gain an additional velocity, so that there is a net flow along the wire. This extra velocity is called their drift velocity. Here's a way to picture this:

Think of a swarm of bees. They are all milling around the hive. Each bee is moving, but the swarm stays still. Now one sets off and the rest follow. The swarm is still a milling mass, but overall it moves away from the hive. The free electrons in a metal are like the bees; it takes a voltage to make the mass of electrons move through the wire.







Picture 2.5 Conventional current flows in the opposite direction to the electrons.


Current direction

Electrons are negatively charged. They flow from negative to positive in a circuit.
Conventional current flows the other way - from positive to negative

http://www.easternct.edu/sustainen [...] ntPage.pdf


An electron is a subatomic particle that carries a negative electric charge. It has no known substructure and is believed to be a point particle.[2] An electron has a mass that is approximately 1/1836 that of the proton.[8] The intrinsic angular momentum (spin) of the electron is a half integer value of 1⁄2, which means that it is a fermion. The antiparticle of the electron is called the positron, which is identical to the electron except that it carries electrical and other charges of the opposite sign. When an electron collides with a positron, they annihilate, producing a pair (or more) of gamma ray photons. Electrons, which belong to the first generation of the lepton particle family,[9] participate in gravitational, electromagnetic and weak interactions.[10] Electrons have quantum mechanical properties of both a particle and a wave, so they can collide with other particles and be diffracted like light. Since an electron is a fermion, no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state, a property known as the Pauli exclusion principle.[9]

The concept of an indivisible amount of electric charge was theorized to explain the chemical properties of atoms, beginning in 1838 by British natural philosopher Richard Laming;[4] the name electron was introduced for this charge in 1894 by Irish physicist George Johnstone Stoney. The electron was identified as a particle in 1897 by J. J. Thomson and his team of British physicists.[6][11]

In many physical phenomena, such as electricity, magnetism, and thermal conductivity, electrons play an essential role. An electron generates a magnetic field while moving, and it is deflected by external magnetic fields. When an electron is accelerated, it can absorb or radiate energy in the form of photons. Electrons, together with atomic nuclei made of protons and neutrons, make up atoms. However, electrons contribute less than 0.06% to an atom's total mass. The attractive Coulomb force between an electron and a proton causes electrons to be bound into atoms. The exchange or sharing of the electrons between two or more atoms is the main cause of chemical bonding.[12]

According to theory, most of the electrons in the universe were created in the big bang, but may also be created through beta decay of Radioactive isotopes and in high-energy collisions, for instance, when cosmic rays enter the atmosphere. Electrons may be destroyed through annihilation with positrons, or may be absorbed during nucleosynthesis in stars. Laboratory instruments are capable of containing and observing individual electrons as well as electron plasma, whereas dedicated telescopes can detect electron plasma in the outer space. Electrons have many applications, including welding, cathode ray tubes, electron microscopes, radiation therapy, lasers and particle accelerators.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron

why? were discussing the properties of electrons in metal, and what I have found is that electrons naturally move on their own, electrical conductances offers polarity and charge that directs the already moving electrons, and since there are no known subparticles of electrons it becomes apparent that these already mobile subatomic particle moving through metals couldnt possibly disturb the atom.

It only changes if one subatomic particle leaves the metal which is not the case in connected conducting metals. even without added charge the electrons will move around through the connected metals.

Actually i didn't just fail... check your facts again- the atomic number = the amount of protons in the atom which = the amount of electrons, but it can have more or less electrons... If i did say that the element changes then i was wrong and i take it back
(what im saying is the original element has = pro. & elec.)

In chemistry and physics, the atomic number (also known as the proton number) is the number of protons found in the nucleus of an atom and therefore identical to the charge number of the nucleus. It is conventionally represented by the symbol Z. The atomic number uniquely identifies a chemical element. In an atom of neutral charge, atomic number is equal to the number of electrons.

The atomic number, Z, should not be confused with the mass number, A, which is the total number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus of an atom. The number of neutrons, N, is known as the neutron number of the atom; thus, A = Z + N. Since protons and neutrons have approximately the same mass (and the mass of the electrons is negligible for many purposes), the atomic mass of an atom is roughly equal to A.

Atoms having the same atomic number Z but different neutron number N, and hence different atomic masses, are known as isotopes. Most naturally occurring elements exist as a mixture of isotopes, and the average atomic mass of this mixture determines the element's atomic weight. The current standard for the atomic mass unit (amu), also termed the dalton (Da) is defined to be exactly 1⁄12 of the mass of a free (unbound) neutral 12C atom in its ground (lowest-energy) state.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_number

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: atomic number
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Britannica Concise Encyclopedia

Number of a chemical element in the systematic, ordered sequence shown in the periodic table. The elements are arranged in order of increasing number of protons in the nucleus of the atom (the same as the number of electrons in the neutral atom), and that number for each element is its atomic number.
For more information on atomic number, visit Britannica.com.


Sci-Tech Encyclopedia: Atomic number
Top Home > Library > Science > Sci-Tech EncyclopediaThe number of elementary positive charges (protons) contained within the nucleus of an atom. It is denoted by the letter Z. Correspondingly, it is also the number of planetary electrons in the neutral atom.

The concept of atomic number emerged from the work of G. Moseley, done in 1913–1914. He measured the wavelengths of the most energetic rays (K and L lines) produced by using the elements calcium to zinc as targets in an x-ray tube. The square root of the frequency, ν, of these x-rays increased by a constant amount in passing from one target to the next. These data, when extended, gave a linear plot of atomic number versus ν for all elements studied, using 13 as the atomic number for aluminum and 79 for that of gold. See also X-ray spectrometry.

Moseley's atomic numbers were quickly recognized as providing an accurate sequence of the elements, which the chemical atomic weights had sometimes failed to do. Additionally, the atomic number sequence indicated the positions of elements that had not yet been discovered.

The atomic number not only identifies the chemical properties of an element but facilitates the description of other aspects of atoms and nuclei. Thus, atoms with the same atomic number are isotopes and belong to the same element, while nuclear reactions may alter the atomic number.

When specifically written, the atomic number is placed as a subscript preceding the symbol of the element, while the mass number (A) precedes as a superscript, for example, 2713Al, 23892U. See also Atomic structure and spectra; Element (chemistry); Mass number.


and here

http://periodic.lanl.gov/use.html

The only time losing an electron causes an elemental change is through the emission of beta radiation, but that electron is from the breakdown of a proton in the nucleus, not from the surrounding electron shells/cloud/other_term_for_the_same_thing

Wait till you start the stuff about the non-existence of electron shells. They will tell you that everything you have been taught so far is wrong.