world without money - Page 2

Last message on previous page:
Exactly. The problem is, you will always have good people and bad people. You will always have good people who turn bad later. These people will take advantage of laws which we follow. They will take advantage of our good natures and use them to ill ends.

Trying to legislate humanity itself is pointless. We now have laws in this country preventing the legal use of handguns, but at the same time the lunatics are allowed out in the streets. Criminals are let out early. Honest, law abiding citizens are being caught by computers if they do a small amount of speed more than the legal limit.

So much effort in catching those who are basically good, and so little in keeping the bad citizens from doing exactly what they feel like.

What is going on???

Call it humanity, liberalism, being a good samaritan or whatever. Allowing legislation of this nature is crazy.

<b><font color=blue>~ <A HREF="http://forums.btvillarin.com/index.php?act=ST&f=41&t=324&s=58e94ba84a16bedfebbf0f416d5bac48" target="_new">System Specs</A> ~<font color=blue></b>

Yep, and it sucks. Most laws work against the law abiding citizens. If you're a messed-up outlaw how is the law going to reach you? People who are'nt afraid to rob and kill are'nt afraid of anything the 'system' can throw at them. Jail might be an inconvenience, but I doubt any of those people are really afraid of it. Jail scares the hell out of me, par contre.

<b> A mosquito is just a small woodpecker. </b>

At least you can see the possibilties.
Most people are so blinded by what they think "has to be" they close their mind off.
I can see it happening but not in my lifetime
Bob

Star Trek:TNG was BS. Money drives competition, which drives progress. People will be lazy otherwise, just look at socialism.

Good for wasting our world at least
Bob

Care to back that up with a few facts?


<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

Ok:
Russia, every form of goverment has failed.
China, every form of goverment has failed.
Germany, every form of goverment has failed,
Italy,France, Yugoslavia,.
Can you think of one that hasn't
Bob

They seem to be doing quite well now... at least compared to how it was when Communism first failed.

I don't like Communism, but China is quickly becoming a free market system... explain the failure?

Huh? Germany is doing quite well now I thought. Besides, they weren't socialist / communist to begin with (unless you're talking about the whole East / West Germany thing) and under Hitler they were facist.

You quoted some poor examples. You didn't even say how they 'failed'. You're going to have to be a little more specific on exactly how every form of government in these countries have failed. Even in Yugoslavia... democracy is beginning to work.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

Your point would come across much better if you just said that communism, facism, dictatorships, and monarchy dictatorships don't work. Yes that would be stating the obvious, but it's better than saying that a country's gov't failed.

And yes, socialism IS failing, it hasn't failed completely yet. I would have to agree with Zoron that it makes people lazy. It is not our moral responsability to support people. People need to work and work harder than the next guy if they want to succeed. If you give someone a free lunch he won't understand what it takes to actually earn it and he will be lazy.

Who would you rather be around, the guy who got eveything without working for it, without deserving it, the guy who was handed everything, or the guy who worked for it and earned it? What is better for society?

The worst part about socialism is that they believe that the rich, which is mostly those that did work hard, should pay for everyone else with their taxes.

Sweden has 25% sales tax and their starting tax bracket is around 38%. If you make any money you can expect 80% of it to go to taxes. On top of that their free healthcare isn't that great.

_________________________________________
<font color=red><b>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red></b>

"has failed"
which is past tense, besides any Goverment around right now is obviously running, how ever badly.
So when I say "has failed" I am talking history. Okay.
I hope that clears up my intent.
have a nice day
Bob

While some do seem to get paid exorbitantly, (i.e. the CEO/athlete thing), is the above talking about everybody getting paid similar just for working, period, no matter how hard they work, how professional they act, etc? Cause, I gotta tell ya, I don't think it would be better if I got a similar salary as folks (like some I work with) who put little or no effort into educating and polishing themselves, put in the bare minimum to get by, shrug off everything they can onto everybody else, and have no clue how to act in a professional manner.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>

I'll tell you one reason why socialism is bad... and it has nothing to do with how it's run.

People have very little opportunity to prosper under socialism. People work hard for their money just to have it go to someone else that isn't willing to work just as hard to earn it. I have nothing against those that can't work due to some illness or disability... I just can't stand the fact that there are those that are perfectly able to work, but aren't willing.

If I work harder than the guy next to me, then my rewards should be higher. Under a socialist system, they wouldn't be. Where is my incentive to work hard when the guy next to me can practically sleep on the job and still take home the same amount of money at the end of the day? Why should I have to support everyone else with the money I work for?

They may not be currently working as hard as some people think they should... but they definately had to work their ass off to get there. (CEOs and sports stars especially). CEOs carry a tremendous amount of responsibility on their shoulders... the success or failure of a company depends on their decisions. Leaders will always demand greater salaries than those under them.

The other question is... who decides what is a 'fair' amount of money for someone to make? And if they make more than what is considered 'fair', how much of their money do you demand be redistributed? Who decides who gets what and how much? I agree that everyone working for the betterment of mankind is a high ideal; but I wouldn't count on seeing this in our lifetime unless something very drastic occurs. People are naturally a bit selfish... they work for themselves, not for everyone else. After all, it hardly seems fair that someone that works hard all their life can be less successful than someone that just cruises through, doing only what's necessary.



<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

A million dollars isn't really that much. People that work their whole lives, invest wisely, and don't fall heavily into debt become millionares.

Having 10's of millions is a different story. Some people have to work their tails off. Others invent something. Others invest superwisely. Some inherit money. Others just have a talent that is rare or exceptional.

Telling someone that they don't deserve their money is hard to do. If you think that an athlete doesn't deserve his money so be it, but instead of complaining why don't you go out there, do his job, and then give your salary to whatever charity you want. Odds are you can't do his job though. And thus he's rewarded handsomely.

Are some salaries over the top? I think so. Athletes, movie stars, and musicians shock me with their salaries. Then again people pay massive amounts of money to see them and the demand for them creates huge salaries. If you truly don't believe that they shouldn't be paid that much you shouldn't go to games, concerts, or movies.

My gripe isn't so much that people make too much. My gripe is that some people, such as teachers, don't make enough.

The quality of our education is diminished by the fact that those that truly would be great teachers go out and get other jobs that actually put food on their tables. If we really wanted good teachers we would start them at 70K a year and move them up to 100K a year. That would get some bright teachers out there.

_________________________________________
<font color=red><b>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red></b>

I am trying to imagine a different future than where we are heading.
Something that isn't Socialism or Communism, Or Capitalism.
But something that works for everybody, something that makes sense.
Something new, maybe without money.
It is just speculation, but old ideas are not going to be good enough in the future I don't think.
I wanted to see some ideas from different people.
One thing we need to think about is the natural resources that we have on Earth.
Right now we are on a course to destroy our world to make a profit.
Not very good long term thinking.
This is not in refernce to you, but everytime I see this subject people bring up how Communism failed, how great Capitalism is, talk about how things are now.
But what I am trying to do is explore different futures.
I want people to be creative, use their imagination.
It is just about whats possible.

About working with people who don't pull their own weight,
They really suck, and they almost always seem to be the ass-kissers.
I don't know whats worse the ass-kisser or the boss thats favors them!
Bob

actually the correct saying is "the love of money(greed) is the root of all evil."

<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Apostalic Alcoholic.}=-</A>

Okay, I stand corrected.
But my basic thinking is still the same
Bob

Many athletes do get a huge amount of money and it is absurd. But what is even worse is that this isn't their major source of income. The major source is advertising and sponsorship. Some of those sponsorship is related to their abilities, for example boots for footballers etc. But most of it has nothing to do with their abilities but everything to do with their celebrity status. But I suppose even this can be justified some of the times.

What cannot be justified is that huge companies that make huge amount of money at the expense of other poor people, mainly children. Every body says its bad, but most do it anyway, while they have one of their PR guys up front saying it is bad.

It is this exploitation that is creating much of the resentment amongst the people across this world. And almost every western company does it.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

It IS criminal and they do get away with it. Even governments. The UK government tells all its people and everything about how bad mugabe is, yet they won't put their money (literally) where their mouth is and cut trade with zimbabwe. whats worse is, we're still selling them arms. haha!



<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

No its legs they're in need of, because of the mines we sold them just before banning them.

wanna donate a leg?


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Mr tripod ayy. Keeping the ladies happy?

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

What you want is communism.

_________________________________________
<font color=red><b>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red></b>

Well, the average age of the employees of branches of most of our textiles companies in third world countries would be quite easily below 14. And they're not getting paid $20/week, more like a few pence a day. They'd be jumping up and down if they were getting $20/week.

Nobody is asking the companies to pay their employees western wages. They just need to pay them fair wages, and on top of that employ children above a certain age only and for minimal hours. Right now the companies keep saying they don't condone child labour, yet investigations after investigations find more young children in their employment. Many have accidents with machinery loosing fingers etc and just get discarded.

It is funny how when companies out source some of their work to other countries giving their employees/contractors in those countries, there is an outcry in the companies country. but when the compnaies are employing children in thridworld countries or giving adults pennies per day, all is fine by our employment vocals.


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

We are only human. If you want to know if peace and harmony is possible then go read Jane Goodall's books.

Odds are we will either have to evolve over 1000's of years to something more docile or we'll have to genetically engineer peacefull humans.

We are what we are. Peace and harmony isn't going to be a social change imop.

_________________________________________
<font color=red><b>GOD</font color=red> <font color=blue>BLESS</font color=blue> <font color=red>AMERICA</font color=red></b>

Without trying to insult anyone or addressing individual postings here...
A world without money is not only possible, but already being worked on, the part that everyone fails to understand is that every single problem today and in the past has been generated by money, it was a system that was set hundreds of years ago and has poisoned humanity. It does not matter what political preference you may have, it is very hard to imagine how things would change if everyone had access to anything without a price tag (free), form food to houses. Human behavior is directly related to the surrounding influence.
Many think "evil" people are born that way, but think how money has taken so many on different paths.
The only argument i see repeatedly about a moneyless world is "incentive" and yes we have been conditioned to believe that if we don't HAVE to work, everyone would just sit and scratch their bellies or some would.
There are many other kinds of incentives like working for the wellness of the whole which obviously includes ourselves and our families.
It is really not about money but about resources, and the moment ALL resources are focused in the benefit of all human kind, distributed equally, people will understand things in a very different way.
Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.
This is happening TODAY in Florida:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/introFaq.php

Last but not least.
It doesn't matter who you voted for or who you will be voting for, it has already been set-up long before you even imagine, wake up people!
Our government and any other government will NEVER change, as long as money is in the middle, that will be the ultimate goal. Honesty and integrity are just a product of our imaginations, they will nevr exist until there is a common goal for everyone. We have to change to a RESOURCE based society where ALL the resources are used and consumed by ALL.
Do you know that the resources on earth would be enough for the entire world population to live off (if administered properly) for more than 25,000 years? And the standard of living for ALL would be beyond what most of us have ever imagined. That means way above today's standard of living for the average American citizen.