Hacks to turn Series 2 units into stand-alone DVR? - Page 2

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Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:

>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?
>
> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on

I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks like
he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about Intellectual
Property.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Adam Maloney wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:
>
>>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need
>>> Tivo's IP?
>>
>>
>> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on
>
>
> I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks
> like he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about
> Intellectual Property.

Well that wasn't originally my post, but in2sheep was ;-).

Randy S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:02:41 -0700, Lenroc <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:31:48 -0500, Mark wrote:
>
>> On 17 Mar 2005 13:46:32 -0800, in2sheep@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>I'm not so sure that's true. You may not be licensed to use certain
>>>pieces of the software on the box. If you continue to use TiVo's code
>>>without paying the subscription, that may be illegal. The hardware is
>>>yours but you don't buy all rights to the software with your purchase.
>>
>> Nope. I bought the box. Never signed any agreement. I can do with it as I
>> please so long as I'm not accessing Tivo's (or anyone elses) pay databases.
>> It really is that simple.
>
>Right. As in2sheep pointed out, you bought the box. Have fun with the box
>however you want.
>
>However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
>box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement.

I don't care what Tivo "agreed" to. They certainly didn't "agree" to anything
with me.

Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
software I feel like with zero repercussions.

>If you want to try to pretend to know what you're talking about,

Oh God. Look who's talking! No sense in going any farther with you....

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
>>box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement.
>
>
> I don't care what Tivo "agreed" to. They certainly didn't "agree" to anything
> with me.

Mark, you can't really be this dense. The "agreement" in question is
that between you and TiVo, so you are necessarily a part of it and you
accepted this "agreement" when you bought the product (legally, even if
you don't agree with the legal precedent), and again when you activated
your service.

> Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
> software I feel like with zero repercussions.

Ok, have you been conscious the last 10 years? Did you hear nothing
about the kid in Norway (at least I think it was Norway) who was
convicted for reverse engineering the DVD CSS encryption? Clearly you
*cannot* reverse engineer tamper with anything you want with no
repercussions in the eyes of the law. You may not agree with the laws,
but you can't say they don't exist.

>>If you want to try to pretend to know what you're talking about,
>
> Oh God. Look who's talking! No sense in going any farther with you....

And we're supposed to go further with you when you won't admit facts
clearly in evidence? Numerous legal and ethical statements of fact have
been presented, and all you've done is present logical fallacies and
personal opinions. "I bought it, so I'll do anything I want with it" is
not a valid or logical argument or legal statement.

Randy S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:23:31 -0700, Lenroc <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:27:57 -0500, Mark wrote:
>
>> Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
>> software I feel like with zero repercussions.
>
>That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.

I bought the box and the software is on it. I'll do as I please with it for
my personal use and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.

Yea, it's really that simple.

>But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal,

That's right. It isn't illegal. With that said, what's the problem??

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Well first let me say that I am no lawyer so now that is out of the way I
will say this.

Most of the Ts & Cs people are quoting here are from the Tivo SERVICE
agreement which you can easily find on the web site. Most of the language in
that document is centered around using the Tivo HW/SW in conjunction with
the Tivo Service. If you never sign up for Tivo service then none of the
terms in that document would apply IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion).

What I cannot determine is what, if any, agreement was included with the
actual Hardware unit. I don't recall seeing any specific legal documents
included with the hardware that implies any sort of agreement between the
purchaser and Tivo. So it appears that Mark may actually have a point and
that is as long as it's for personal use (ie non-commercial usage) then you
can do anything you want to your Tivo unit.

I am sure someone with more legal experience than I could comment upon or
correct my assumptions.

Cheers
TC


"Randy S." <rswittno@spamgmail.com> wrote in message
news1polk$1cbo$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>
>>>That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.
>>
>>
>> I bought the box and the software is on it. I'll do as I please with it
>> for
>> my personal use and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.
>>
>> Yea, it's really that simple.
>
> So, today you went out and bought lunch. They served you a sandwich and
> fries on a plate with a fork and knife. You never signed an agreement. Do
> you now own the plate and utensils? If not, why? If so, I'd like to see
> you walk out openly with them.
>
>>>But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal,
>>
>>
>> That's right. It isn't illegal. With that said, what's the problem??
>
> The problem is you can't seem to read and comprehend.
>
> "It's not legal" != "It isn't illegal"
>
> Can you work through that much logic? Do you understand negatives and
> antonyms?
>
> Randy S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news1rorg$c76$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
> Tony Clark wrote:
SNIP

>
> Well, at least that's a logical argument. I don't recall either if there
> was an agreement on or in the box. If there was *not*, I'd have to agree
> with you, the usage agreement would not be binding until you activated
> service, so if you purchased the DVR and never activated service you would
> not be bound by it.
>
> However, I'm willing to bet there *was* an agreement in or on the the
> original box. I have no way of confirming that however.
>
> Randy S.

I dug up all the Tivo docs that came with my Series 2 unit. In the Users
Guide, Chapter 9, are the terms and conditions of the Tivo Service
Agreement. Section 16, Title to Software and Intellectual Property, states
"Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse
engineer, modify, sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either
the Tivo DVR or software of this system is strictly prohibited, except as
expressly set forth in Section 17 ("Open Source Software" ).

Now it would appear on the surface that this is a very precise and clear
statement, however, this statement is contained within the context of the
Tivo Service Agreement. So, legally speaking, I don't think it's at all
clear whether it's legal to hack the Tivo if you do not have service or
accept the service agreement terms and conditions. On the other hand it does
appear clear that Tivo doesn't want you modifying the hardware or the
software but may not have constructed this agreement appropriately to cover
the non-service situation.

If I read the statement correctly, it would also prohibit the addition or
modification of the hard drive system which is frequently and freely
discussed in this forum and many other Tivo forums that prohibit "theft of
service" discussions. IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion) modifying the
hard drive would fall into the "theft of service" category.

So, clear as mud right...LOL

Cheers
TC

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news1udoa$mre$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>SNIP

>
> Now you're getting into the nitty-gritty details, and us backyard lawyers
> probably don't know enough precedent to know exactly. But you aren't
> stating an impossibility or an improbability. Comapanies have set forth
> unenforceable or incomplete legal statements quite often.
>

Yeah, I guess my point is that it's hard to tell, as a non-lawyer, what part
of this agreement is legally binding. Therefore it's kind of hard, IMHO, to
be so matter-of-fact in regards to "theft of service" arguments.

>>
>> If I read the statement correctly, it would also prohibit the addition or
>> modification of the hard drive system which is frequently and freely
>> discussed in this forum and many other Tivo forums that prohibit "theft
>> of service" discussions. IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion)
>> modifying the hard drive would fall into the "theft of service" category.
>>
>> So, clear as mud right...LOL
>
> I tend to agree with you. It's always been my impression that the Tivo
> communities modifications were technically against the usage agreements,
> but that Tivo has turned a blind eye to them.
>

Yes I can see where a hard drive modification does no harm to Tivo, in the
legal sense. If anything you could make an argument that it helps Tivo
because you are more likely to continue to use the service as opposed to a
software modification that might encourage you to drop the service. Still I
find it ironic that people will argue one point to the extreme (software
hacks) while turning a blind eye to another, just as valid, point.

I think we've put this one to bed finally...LOL

Cheers
TC

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

I am upset too, no wonder they were giving the series 2 away so cheap. Its
dam useless with out the service.

I have a series 1 and a series 2.. I just remembers I gave my mom a series 2
.. I can copy her image and get at least the channels.


"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news2032n$c68$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>
> > Yes I can see where a hard drive modification does no harm to Tivo, in
the
> > legal sense. If anything you could make an argument that it helps Tivo
> > because you are more likely to continue to use the service as opposed to
a
> > software modification that might encourage you to drop the service.
Still I
> > find it ironic that people will argue one point to the extreme (software
> > hacks) while turning a blind eye to another, just as valid, point.
> >
> > I think we've put this one to bed finally...LOL
> >
> > Cheers
> > TC
>
> I think the reason most Tivo fans take a hard line against hacking to
> avoid subscription versus hacking to add hard drives, etc., is two-fold;
> one, Tivo seems to have given tacit acceptance of the latter (esp. since
> several for-profit companies *sell* equipment to do it), while strongly
> discouraging the former(all such talk is banned on tivo-sponsored or
> associated bulletin boards) and two, they believe that the latter type
> of hacking helps tivo (as you note), while the former type could
> serioiusly affect their bottom line and shorten their viability as a
> company. So, yes, there is definitely some interpretation going on, but
> I don't think it's that much of a stretch.
>
> Randy S.

I don't know, really. I don't see many options out there.

Here is what needs to be done to be legal:
1 - Blank the hard drive/install a new one. 1000% delete everything on the drive including and especially the TIVO software.
2 - install open-source PVR type software that works with the hardware.
3 - never hook up to tivo(actually won't be able to anyways)

This is similar to PS3 or PSP hacked OSs - no issue, really, as long as you know that you're 100% on your own. Perfectly legal. This is what the original poster was talking about as well - completely removing and nuking everything TIVO related and turning it into a PVR.

Potential problems:
Remote won't work likely AT ALL. I'd figure half of the buttons are TIVO related.

Will need to be run remotely via a PC/server like TVersity as a result.

Software features won't work. Imagine no pause, no stopping, no FF, rewind... Plays file and record the file and that's it.(I suppose there is software that might do some of this on the never HD models, though...)

I tried running TVersity through my PS3 for instance and it was weak sauce to say the least. Glitchy and almost no control. When it worked, though, it was nice enough, but even a $100 video card now has HDMI out - better to run directly from your PC to the HDTV.

You might as well just make your own media server/PVR instead. There are projects to do that that work great. And honestly, the TIVO hardware is pretty half-baked and crippled by comparison to what your PC with a HDTV tuner card in it can do.