Help MobilityGuru Redesign Psion's Iconic, Ultrasmall 5mx - Page 2

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Oh really...I found this the other day

http://homepage1.nifty.com/kyou-kyou/jornada/en/

I still have my Psion 5MX, which I bought after a Psion 5, after a Siena...

It was and still is awesome, and the 3rd party software you could find let it do so many things, from becoming a database for chemicals or medical drugs to fairly complex scientific calculations, reading and writing data to phones, becoming a terminal, programming network hubs, simulations of interacting space bodies... blah blah...

The one thing I pined for initially was a little more connectivity. It obviously wouldn't support CF wifi cards and such. If it had wireless and proper network support I could have been totally happy. Eventually I bought a Jornada 680E for the colour screen and PCMCIA slot but was disappointed by the utterly abysmal backlight and the crappy OS.

I would certainly adopt a revamped version of the Psion, I was so crestfallen they abandoned such devices.

I bought a 5mx in 2001, which I still use regularly, mostly for writing novels. They were (and still are) fantastic devices, but I have to wonder if there's much of a market for such a thing these days. Most PDAs nowadays are outsized phones. Those that have QWERTY keyboards at all need a matchstick to use.

The 5mx cost about £400 when it first came out in 1999, or about $600 at the exchange rates of the time - more like $800 now. I'd be reluctant to spend much more than that on a new one.

Those who expect this new device to be a miniaturised laptop are missing the point. Yes, the 5mx was a computer you could put in your pocket, but it was a computer that could do the things you actually needed while you were away from a bigger computer. The main design goals were for it to be small and light, with a long battery life. (Even then, people who'd upgraded from earlier models complained it was too big and heavy, and the batteries didn't last long enough.)

With that in mind, this is what I'd like to see in a new incarnation of the 5mx:
- Keep the overall form factor - clamshell, with a keyboard that slides forward.
- Keep it about the same size and weight. It has to be something you can put in your pocket.

- Keep the keyboard. This was one of the best things about it.

- Keep the touch screen. There isn't room for anything else that does service for a mouse.

- The screen was hard to read on the 5mx, unless you could get a light source in just the right place over your shoulder. It had a backlight, but you had to switch this on, and it ate the batteries. I imagine screens have improved a bit since then :-) It doesn't have to be much higher resolution than the original. Seeing as I deal mostly with text, it doesn't even have to be colour - the greyscale screen is one reason the batteries last so long.

- A headphone socket would be nice.

- One, preferably two, USB sockets. This gives a lot of expansion options.

- Some form of removable storage. The 5mx has a CF slot (picture 11 in the slide show). I don't think it needs SD *and* CF - SD alone should be enough.

- One of the frustrations of the 5mx (in fact, all the Psion computers I used) is that the onboard memory doesn't retain its contents without power. It has a backup battery, whose sole purpose is to supply power to the memory while you change the main batteries. Occasionally, the backup battery gets dislodged, with predictably catastrophic consequences when you go to change the main ones. It's supposed to warn you that the backup battery isn't supplying power, but it never does. So the new machine needs either a better warning system, or else some form of non-volatile memory onboard.

- A VGA port might be nice. DVI would be more future-proof, but do you have any idea how big those things are? Allowing for the screws to hold the cable in place, it would take up half of one side of the machine!

- People are going to want to use it as a phone, but this shouldn't interfere with its usability as a computer. So I think anything that anything you need to use it as a phone, which isn't also useful as part of a computer, shouldn't be built into it. A UMTS modem would allow you to make phone calls, but would also let you surf the net, far from any coffee shops with free wi-fi. A Bluetooth headset, on the other hand, is not so useful just for computing, so I think it should be an optional extra.

- Software. This was the other great thing about the 5mx. Considering the OS and hardware were both proprietary, it had a huge selection of third-party programs available. But the built-in applications were so good that no-one ever seriously tried to replace them. They were unbelievably stable, too. In the whole time I've owned a 5mx, I can count on one hand the number of times an application has lost data.

The OS is still around - it eventually became Symbian - but I don't know if it's a good choice nowadays. Please, please, PLEASE don't put Windows on it. Microsoft already have far too much influence. Windows will make the machine just another underpowered laptop with little or nothing to distinguish it from competitors. Put Linux on it, and make it easy to replace or upgrade. Maybe allow it to boot off the SD card, something like a live CD on a PC.

I've been wondering what will replace my 5mx when it eventually dies (I bought two second-hand Series 5's as insurance against that), so I'll be interested to see where this redesign or resurrection goes. Stay true to what made the 5mx so good in the first place, and I'll seriously think about buying one when it becomes available.

Steve Pemberton
http://www.pembers.net

i think this is a great project

main specs i'll leave to someone else, tho i have soem thoughts

definatly a phone, usable by headset wired or bluetooth

some storage capacity

wireless g at least

as it has to be compatible with windows, i would suggest xp or wm5, but hey give people the option to have linux or whatever if they want

the whole swing screen idea is nice to lend itself more to a pda/phone functionality, but if not, a second low power screen for basic info of call and so forth

its always nice to see some exciting new designs and ideas

Back in '98, I worked for a large financial market as a sys admin and I needed a kick ass PDA to keep everything together. The 5mx was my choice and bought it with my own cash. The best $480 I every spent. I still have it though the keyboard is a little twitchy.

The clamshell should come back. Not only did the clamshell work but the quick buttons along the screen edge worked well too. The current hardware buttons of PDA/Smarphones are too limited and require the user to take the time to learn how to remap buttons to access common functions faster. The only device out there that comes anywhere close to the 5mx is the HTC Wizard inspired devices(I've used the Cingular 8125 for 6 mos).

Windows Mobile still has no built in task manager, 5mx did have an Alt-Tab like Windows.

IMHO, the Psion 5volution (my name for it) shouldn't run any of the current mobile OS'es, they are too limiting. Epoc32 is a well designed OS and if it was made opensource for the 'Nix heads to modernize it for todays hardware, we could see some marvelous things.

I agree with the concept drawings for adding VGA out and USB 2.0. Definitly BT for PAN with headphones, cell, PC connections. Wi-Fi, maybe but I would either make that a trim level option (5volution Premier).
Connectivity was one the things that killed the 5mx from moving into modern times.

Batter life? Despite the problems with Sony's Li-Ion batteries, the technology works for form factors like the 5mx. The backup watch battery though should stay.

Capacity. Std model should have 256MB( this will make it affodable). How about making the expansion a Mini-SD slot. Premier would come with 1 GB internal.

Screen. Still the same measurements but resolution can be set for Low, Med, or High(800x600,Premier lvl) 32bit color.

How about a camera to the rear of the unit? Would only work when clamshell is opened. 1.2Mp, video capable.

Pricing,
Std - $449
Premier - $789(faster CPU, better screen, Wi-Fi, more RAM/storage)

UMPC is a nice idea but won't work in the long run. MSFT will drop it. Watch for stuff out of the Koreans. I think they see the need to break the mold and try new things.

The traditional PDA/Smartphone formfactor is dying. Just like BetaMax and OS/2 sometimes a design is so good that competion can't beat it so they defame it to program the consumer against it. But when brought back, it's still compelling.

I hope device makers happen across this forum because you'll hear what folks don't like about your current offerings and what we'd like to see.

May the 5mx live once again!!!!

In my previous rants, I'd not really answered the actual questions. Having had a weekend to ponder it...

We still seem to have two threads going on, intermingled. One is discussing a true replacement for the 5mx: a clamshell PDA. The other is discussing getting an x86 laptop into the 5mx's form factor.

In my mind, the former is obviously possible, because the 5mx *was* one, and producing a faster, colour-screened version isn't desparately challenging with more modern technology. This is effectively what the Nokia 9000 series is, and to me it's therefore a "solved problem", and not (to me) very interesting. I don't need one of those - I have a Sony Ericsson P910i, and I don't need the keyboard that badly. A 640x200 screen would be nice, but I can surf on the P910's 208x320, and if I was going that route I'd probably put up with the bulk of a JasJar (and Windows Mobile), even if the keyboard isn't quite as good, for the extra features and full VGA screen. As I've said before, I can't quite use the Psion 5's anyway. Making something like the 9500 or JasJar but "a bit more like a 5mx" wouldn't add much for me. People may be interested in discussing it, but frankly you can always buy a folding bluetooth keyboard and add it to one of these devices, and you'll end up with a better typing experience than the 5mx anyway. Other than the keyboard I doubt there's enough to differentiate it, given that the other devices are cell phones as well.

On the other hand, a "real" PC that you can stick in your pocket, and run XP (and dual boot to Linux), is far more intriguing. It would be much easier to make something run Win2K, but that would get laughed out of the shop these days no matter how practical.

Given that I'm talking about the "real PC" concept, I'd answer the questions:

1) At least 1024x600, preferably nick the Libretto U105's 1280x768. 800x600 is the absolute minimum for running Windows apps, but at least 1024 across will make an enormous difference both to running Windows apps and web surfing. 1280 is the new common width, and pretty much guarantees everything will work okay. A transflective alternative would work better outside and massively help the battery life, but probably ruin the Windows experience; LEDs are probably the way unless you go with (dim) white electroluminescent sheets (like the green one on the original). [A PDA can make do with much much less resolution, although the more the prettier. Web browsing is the big reason to have at least 800 across. Transflective would help here, and absolute picture quality is possibly less a benefit than battery life when compared with a PC system.]

2) Unless Via have anything lower power than a ULV Yonah, Intel it is. This will be limited by battery technology, and cooling (although a metal case - preferably with some grooves on the back - to act as heat sink will help). It's a huge chunk of the price, but what can you do? 5.5W is a lot for a PDA CPU, so down-clock it and hope for the best, possibly with a "turbo" mode when plugged in. If you need fans (unless they're on the docking station) you're in trouble. [For a PDA, take your pick, but we're probably talking a fast-ish ARM variant.]

3) Memory will come down to space, price, and power consumption. No room to make it upgradable. 1GB would be extremely generous, and 512MB is probably the lower limit. You can always set up the CF-card as a swap drive. [A PDA can use much less - 128MB or so.]

4) Solid state storage if it doesn't price the device out of the market. Don't aim too high - 4-8GB is lots if you're not trying to play games or do a lot of Photoshop. There's always CF drives and USB external enclosures. A small HDD would have some appeal if it can fit in, so long as it's resilient enough (this will probably be more abused than a usual laptop) and the shape isn't a problem. Also HDDs can handle large numbers of accesses (e.g. swapping) better than some solid state drives. Large sizes are, IMHO, useful for video playback (not going to work for long with the battery available - ARM and media processor based systems are much more efficient), big audio collections (if this is really the way you want to re-load your iPod nano) and photo storage (somewhere to download your holiday snaps - I've used a laptop for this before). This isn't a machine for video editing, high end photo editing, or modern games. Making the internal drive remote mount as a USB mass storage without booting up would be a nice touch. [PDA: go solid state, for resilience. Probably don't need that much.]

5) WiFi: Yes, it makes a massive difference to plug-and-play. Even if it could be added by CF card or USB, if it fits in the space (it's on the P990, so it should) it's a huge win. So long as it's usually turned off. Bluetooth is even more useful (use a "real" keyboard or mouse) - especially, use a mobile phone as a modem. Don't try to make a Windows PC work as a phone - everyone has a phone anyway, and you don't want to have to wait for XP to un-hibernate to make a call. [PDA: WiFi is less critical, although it's still nice for a bit of surfing. Bluetooth is still a big winner.]

6) You'll never run an x86 (at least, a useful one) off AAs. If you did, they'd be too expensive to keep replacing, or too annoying to keep recharging. There *are* Li-ion AA cells, which would give you an emergency replacement opportunity if you're two minutes from finishing your presentation and you're nearer a supermarket than a charger, but it's got to be easier to go with Li-ion or lithium poly, just from a form factor point of view. Sell an optional battery pack, either to plug into the charger socket or replace the internal battery (as a thicker lump). Ship with a car charger and, ideally, the ability to trickle charge over USB. [PDA: A decent colour screen will kill standard cells, although the ability to stuff in some AAAs in an emergency is something I miss from old Palms. Still, I think to keep it think you're better with something like a cell phone battery.]

7) I'd lose the SD card reader, and possibly ship a complementary SD-to-CF card reader with it. If that's still not enough space, lose the CF card slot - it's very nice to have for upgrades, but USB can replace most things these days (although they may be higher power). Agreed with the docking station suggestion, although again it's amazing what you can run over USB these days. It should all fit (although the narrow end of the slope at the front will be a bit challenging), but the space left for the battery will be a big question. If I'm reading the spec correctly, the Core Solo is about 3.5cm per side - huge compared with an ARM, but not that much of the total footprint, especially if mounted on the back of the board to heat-sink it. My life's too short to research the chipset and ram sizes in detail, but they look okay, so long as device A doesn't fry device B that's right next to it. 7.5"x3.5"x1" is pretty big compared with what's inside a Libretto once you've taken out the full 2.5" HDD, the pcmcia slot(s) and the battery. If possible, the thickness is obviously the thing to shrink - 1" is a thick device to stick in a trouser pocket, but even 2cm would be much better, and 1.5cm trivial. The Newtons were only 8"x4"x1.2", and everyone remembers them as being huge; my Libretto (a full, old, PC) is 8.3"x4.5"x1.3". [Without using x86 processors you could probably make something half the size.] Tip for both: don't run the PCB the full width, and use ribbon cable for the bits on the end. Then it can flex a bit without damage, so long as the screen is protected.

8) For a PC, $1000 sounds right, if possible. It's not as powerful as some mini-machines. I'd sooner have a machine I can use at a price I can afford than something all powerful that I can only aspire to - don't spend a fortune giving fractional price gains. Sell the docking station and spare batteries as extras. Don't go for the faster ULV Core Solo. Certainly don't add 80GB of solid state storage! This is nobody's primary PC - better it be a handy toy for lots of people than a workhorse for a few. I doubt making it for much less is feasible. I'm curious about the prices quoted before - lower than I'd expect, although I've never tried to source this kind of thing.

I might try doing some drawing myself.

Out of interest, dumb question: is this idle chatter, or (potentially) actually going to happen?

That put me in my place.

I think that's a little unfair. Which Vaio do you mean, because what we're discussing falls between the form factors?

The Vaio subnotebooks were great bits of kit, but they're enormous compared with even the latest Librettos - 3cm in each major dimension. The latest U105 is a full 5cm wider than my 70CT, which is in turn bigger than a Psion. Those subnotebooks were great for being a full PC that you can carry in a bag easily, and they have a far more "proper" keyboard than the 70CT (which is an acquired taste), but there's no way you could fit it in a pocket. The 70CT would almost fit in a pocket if it were thinner.

The Vaio VGN-UX180P on the other hand, like the oqo before it, isn't a "proper" laptop. It may be powerful enough, but it's got a thumb board, not a keyboard. Even on a table, it would be hard to touch type on properly (although I don't own one, and owners may disagree). The 5mx was much better (although the Revo possibly wasn't). People have complained about the VGN-UX180P update, but frankly I doubt it makes much difference to practical usability for a device this size. In my opinion it's too expensive, and possibly more full-featured than is useful, for something that's a PC masquerading as a PDA.

I think there's a market for something with a relatively decent keyboard (touch-type capable) that will fit in a pocket. I don't think such a device currently exists, unless you start adding folding bluetooth keyboards to the UX180P or oqo.

That's why I think a PC-style device in this form factor would be useful. It doesn't have to be blindingly fast by modern standards (so long as it keeps up with the XP desktop, and even at half the clock a Core Solo ULV would do that); even less so under Linux. Since we're already talking about underclocking it, I don't think we should talk about it being obsolete immediately. My Libretto was launched in 1997, and is still going strong (although it wouldn't run XP). Sure, what we're talking about would struggle with Aero Glass under Vista, but it'll be useful for a long time as an XP, Linux, or even Vista "classic" machine. We're a long way from a work horse in that form factor, but a cheap "carry anywhere" PC that you could actually use as a PC (again, keyboard-determined) is, I think, possible. Actually trying to use either the UX180P or oqo as a generic machine is tricky, at least for a lot of people. Many people don't come near to needing the performance of the machine they've got, and this will never be a gaming or photoshop box anyway.

I can defend the reason this would differentiate itself as a PC from the other devices on the market (a more portable "real" laptop) - and why the shortcomings (mostly performance) aren't such an issue, at least if it's cheap enough.

While I'm interested in the PDA idea, I have to say I struggle more to see where it comes in. The PDA market has gradually been eroded by the smart phone market (as someone who used to carry an 8850 and a Palm, and now carries a P910i, I can see why); the NetBook is interesting but too big and expensive for most and never sold well (with either WinCE or EPOC32), which suggests that the "PDA with a decent keyboard" market is limited - and I speak as a Z88 owner. Is the keyboard on the most direct successor to the 5mx, the Nokia 9500, really bad enough to make it unusable?

There's a question of OS, too. I'm not sure that the keyboard-friendly version of Windows Mobile has ever really caught on. I'm not totally sure I trust Nokia's idea of a GUI, but UIQ3 is, by all accounts, worse (and doesn't support high resolutions). You can run Linux on it (I have a Zaurus, and if it had a reliable battery indicator I'd probably use it), but a proper PDA GUI might need development from scratch. UIQ won't help and Nokia's interfaces are proprietary; even starting with Symbian there's a lot of work to do - especially compared with trying to build something out of standard PC components.

I guess the question is: what do you want to do on it that you can't do on an original 5mx?

Having a colour screen just to make it pretty (and kill the batteries) doesn't help much - although better contrast than the 5mx (eInk?) might be nice. The biggest benefit I can see to upgrading the 5mx is for web surfing, but a keyboard is actually not vital for that (other than forums like this), and no embedded OS has a browser quite as flexible as the desktop OS versions. The Nokia 770 does portable non-phone web browsing pretty well (as did the netbook), and I'm not sure something 5mx-shaped does better. Most PDA uses that could benefit from a "real" keyboard (most notably email) don't benefit all that much from a colour screen, or even a fast processor. I'm not sure the experience on a 9500 is much different from that on a 5mx - in which case, why not just pick up a 5mx from eBay?

Any OS development is either going to have to pick up one of the current ones (for better or for worse) with their GUI and reliability limitations, or start completely from scratch. Don't get me wrong, I'd find this a fascinating project, but it's not a short one. And then you've got no apps. I doubt EPOC32 has been open-sourced while I wasn't looking, although I'm prepared to eat my hat about that one.

Basically: I can see that, with both the Windows version and a PDA version, you can point at other devices and say "why not just use that". I can defend the position of what a Windows (well, x86 with the option of Windows, Linux and maybe OS X) product would provide that's not already on the market. I have a harder time with the PDA idea. However, since I've never tried to use a 9500, and I've already said I can't quite get along with the 5mx keyboard without it gaining a couple of mm, I'm probably in a bad position to judge what would make a PDA with a keyboard usable.

I'm genuinely curious, though - please don't take the fact that I can't see it as an attack on those that can.

Sure. The screen wasn't actually my point, I'm all for smooth fonts thru high-dpi settings.

Speaking for the number of my friends who own(ed) 5mxs and read this site, I'm not sure where that idea came from. The only reason I don't count is that my fingers are slightly too chubby.
Again, I'm being slightly cryptic, but Baloo touched on it below. Your Tom's forum reader is going to have pie-in-sky thoughts of making a tiny "Pee-cee" in such a form factor - such a thing is both unattainable, and utterly pointless. That would be a novelty. The 5mx was a productivity tool.

Sure. The screen wasn't actually my point, I'm all for smooth fonts thru high-dpi settings.

Sorry, hadn't meant to take you out of context (or be quite so caustic). I'm only advocating such a screen because something of similar dpi is necessary if the use as a PC is going to be viable, and because such screens are already in products; likewise the other component suggestions.

Speaking for the number of my friends who own(ed) 5mxs and read this site, I'm not sure where that idea came from. The only reason I don't count is that my fingers are slightly too chubby.
Again, I'm being slightly cryptic, but Baloo touched on it below. Your Tom's forum reader is going to have pie-in-sky thoughts of making a tiny "Pee-cee" in such a form factor - such a thing is both unattainable, and utterly pointless. That would be a novelty. The 5mx was a productivity tool.

Okay, with you. I think we may have got to the stage where contributors are aware of what's going to be feasible - this isn't going to be a fast machine, no matter what we do. I do think it's possible to make a usable PC in this form factor with modern technology. I'd also argue that, novelty or no, it would be useful - probably more so than a UMPC or Sony/oqo's miniature devices. Especially if simplified and priced as low as possible.

A 5mx PDA was, without doubt, very good at its job. The reason I'm advocating a (slow) x86 machine is that it's very flexible, I can see uses for it, and what I want doesn't currently exist. My concerns with trying to produce a direct descendent of the 5mx are:

1) It would require OS development.
2) I'm not sure how much better than the original 5mx it would really be.
3) I'm not sure how it's differentiated from the N9500 class of devices.

If an x86 machine is a pipe dream, a direct descendent of the 5mx would be interesting, but I think it's a bigger overall project and possibly has a smaller target market. I don't believe an x86 is impossible - and I do believe that a slow PC can still be a useful PC, especially in this form factor.

YMMV. :-)

Look, I just want a portable WYSIWYG word processor with internet capability and an easy/useable email program. Looking back at how FAST old laptops used to be, a K6-2 450 with 128MB RAM, Windows 98SE, and Office 97 would do the job, but those were full sized units!

Compare that rig with current electronics, and you'd easily get all that power in the palm of your hand. Heck, you could probably fit that whole 1998 laptop into three modern chips on a PCB the size of a credit card. That just leaves the data drive and display.

The problem isn't hardware, it's software. It takes twice the hardware performance and 4x the RAM to make an XP/XP system run as fast as a 98SE/97 system did.

So we don't need a lot of hardware, just more efficient software. That, from my knowledge, it what the original was all about. Just take a good "smart phone" design, tripple the display size, tripple the battery size, add a little more storage (maybe 32GB of flash media) and a few small applications, and it should fit into a package the size of a 5MX.

The high res screen gets to a point that the text/icons/objects have to be scaled up and is wasted.

5W CPU would give <1hr use.

1.5W max, <.5W typical would be the aim.

1.0W for screen
0.5w wireless
0.2w for rest of system (eg. memory)

That depends. Do you really just want a portable WYSIWYG word processor, or do you want a decent approximation to Word? Do you want basic web browsing, or something that can do Flash, Java and Quicktime? Do you really want an easy/usable email program, or do you want attachments, encryption, folder and address book handling? (Rhetorical questions - these apply to people other than you, Crashman.)

The problem is, give someone the former, and they'll complain it's not the latter. If you really want basic functionality (in the interests of maximizing battery life, reliability, responsiveness, etc.) then I thought the 5mx was pretty capable on its own; a Nokia 9500 is certainly designed to do this (although feature creep may have reduced the responsiveness a bit; I've not tried one to know).

A full PC will do the whole lot, but give someone a PC and they'll immediately put Office and Outlook/Notes on it, run IE, and then complain it's not fast enough. I don't think you can sell a Windows 2000 PC these days, even though it would suit the hardware better.

Heh. My Libretto is a P120MMX, which will run Win98 okay (and has a "designed for NT" sticker on it). I run an oldish Linux distribution, and it's very snappy (as would be a modern one with an old GUI). I wouldn't dream of letting XP near it, not least because it's only got 32MB of RAM (after being upgraded!)

That's pretty much what we're talking about, except that we might be able to make that 1GHz and 512MB of RAM. With enough power management, it might last well (until some idiot installs some bloatware). The only reason I, at least, am shooting for an XP box (given that I'd put Linux on it anyway) is that I don't think something incapable of running XP at a minimal level will sell. An underclocked Core Solo is about as low as the power gets (although I'm not sure about chipset), but even the VIA chips, if they're lower consumption, will run XP easily (and all being equal - and ONLY all being equal - I'll take the processor that's twice as fast). There are lower-power embedded x86 processors (like the Psion 3's!) but once you lose XP there's a real issue with marketting the thing - it becomes an embedded system, and at that point you may as well use an ARM.

Well, you can always put Win98 or Win2K on it and save some power...

I feel your pain. I just think this is more work than cobbling a Core Solo ULV box together and letting the existing OS do the work. You can certainly write such a thing (it's been done again and again), but without an installed base of applications it'd be an uphill struggle. Existing platforms have history on their side.

The N9500 (I don't have shares in Nokia, and I've never used one, I just keep mentioning it because it's the obvious 5mx successor) has the same size screen as the 5mx (640x200), it's colour, it has (AFAIK) okay battery life, and you can add CF card storage to it; it's already smaller than a 5mx, although I'm sure the keyboard isn't as nice. Increase the resolution and all the apps will break. You could redesign the 9500 with a better keyboard, slightly bigger, and maybe even cut the phone off - Nokia might even license the OS to you. I'm not sure it'll sell over the existing one, which itself isn't a big seller.

What we're talking about has to differentiate itself from products that are already available (successful or not). We need something that's definitively better FOR SOMEONE than what's already there.

For the pc-in-a-5mx, let's look at the market position:

+More useful (because of the keyboard) as a PC than a UMPC/oqo/Vaio.
+Better "sitting in front of it" experience.
-Less touch-screen friendly than these.
-Possibly a worse web browser (less device real estate devoted to the screen).
-Worse "take it out and poke it" ("standing up" ) experience.

+Hopefully cheaper than an oqo/Vaio.
-More expensive than the cheaper PDAs and laptops.

+More pocketable than a laptop.
-Less powerful than a bigger laptop.
-Fewer connectors built in.
-Smaller screen.

+More compatible than a PDA or phone.
-Less pocketable than a touch-screen PDA.
-Less battery life.
-Longer start-up.

+More compatible than a custom browsing device (N770, Netbook).
-Smaller screen area.
-Worse battery life.

It won't be for everyone, but I think there are people it'll be for. Make it cheap enough, and me, for a start.

For the upgraded-5mx-pda:

+Better text input than a touch-screen PDA.
-Less pocketable.
-Harder to use standing up (stylus vs thumb typing).
-Standalone PDAs are being replaced by smart phones anyway.

+More pocketable than a full keyboard PDAs (Netbook, Z88).
-Smaller screen, reduced browsing experience.

+Better keyboard than N770 internet tablet.
-Worse (certainly smaller) screen.

+Better keyboard than a smart phone.
-Possibly bigger, possibly not a phone.

+Potentially, a new, fast, streamlined platform.
-With no installed base or third party applications.

+A better PDA than a laptop (smaller, more responsive, longer battery life).
-Nothing like the flexibility of a full PC.

People wanting a PC that they can type on normally (like a laptop) that can always be carried around in a pocket currently don't have a product; we're talking about an incremental but significant improvement in the keyboard over a Vaio and in size over a Libretto (and hopefully cost over both). There's a gap.

People wanting a better 5mx have, in my opinion, a smaller gap where such a device would be useful between the existing 5mx (monochrome, low storage, but established), the N9500 (slightly worse keyboard, but a phone, smaller, and established), the Netbook (much bigger and possibly more expensive, but a better text entry and browsing platofrm) and the N770 (no keyboard, but probably a better web browser).

Also, subnotebooks are at least a limited commercial success (I'm less sure about UMPCs, but they have the same problem as tablet PCs; the oqo and Vaio are probably too expensive to be representative). The Netbook wasn't, the N770 has bad reviews, I don't believe the N9000 series are big sellers (certainly not as much as the P800/P900 series), keyboardless PDAs are losing out to smart phones, and no other recent keyboard PDA has been viable.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like the PDA idea too. I just think it's much more work for a much smaller potential market than the laptop idea; the risks are higher, and I'm not sure the rewards are. A small PC is a small PC; an upgraded PDA is a major platform re-write.

(Sorry to rant so much - take it as a sign of enthusiasm about the idea.)

The Psion's hardware design was and is the perfect form factor! The only thing it needed is to run a standard operating system, ideally it would be great to use the Dualcor concept of windows mobile and xp. That way when using windows mobile the unit uses little power yet has the ability to run xp applications when needed. Other than that it just needs to be color with nice tft display, multiple usb ports, built in wireless, removable battery and that would be great. I would like to see two types of input cards such as cf and maybe a pcmia if it would fit? otherswise two cf or sd slots.

I think this is a fantastic article and exactly what the market needs. I would pay $1000 to up to $2000 us for such a device right now! Computer hardware people completely lost touch with functionality and this article hits the issue right on!

fluppeteer you have very good and valid points but you seem to be missing some important things.

first, why do you assume every current pda user who used to love the 5mx is happy with a smartphone or a nokia 9500? awwww web browsing on 200x300 pixels, you *must* be kidding! i get a headache even with qvga after 5 mins of browsing or using other apps that need more res. awwww the nokia 9500's typical nokiaish stupidity and sluggishness and closed OS!
what does that leave for a current clamshell pda? qtek 9000 (same as imate jasjar etc)? yeah, except that it is too small then, wm5 is still slightly annoying. same applies to zaurus, too small, linux is for geeks, i still feel lost with it even though i love my c760.
the 5mx and the jornada 720 had it just right with their size. (and may i say with the OS and GUI too?)
now, anything else? nope.. there IS a niche for a new 5mx/jornada 720 line. more than just one little clamshell device, a whole product range would be good.
you can't just say hey theres the nokia 9500 as that doesnt satisfy a lot of needs. i'm such a user. ruins your point there.

btw about OS'es, i'm not sure why several users here bashed CE so badly.. but CE is actually a very nice solution when you don't want the complexity of a full xp system - and it is still very powerful, see how many apps accessories etc are available for it. amazing! so much more power lies in it, than in the dumb symbian smartphones. stability, yes that's not so good as with EPOC, my psions never ever froze... but ce 4.x-5.x are getting there, now they almost never crash (if not talking about a ppc) and wm5 can heavily multitask without real slowdowns, wow. maybe ce6 will get there actually. xp is already there, for me. i don't have to do much maintenance for my xp pc after having set it up the right way once.
now, the GUI on the pocketpc's (including wm5, sadly) is crap... i'd revert back to real CE, which is more stable anyway after getting rid of that fluff whats on pocketpc's.

so.. i still use the jornada 728 and sigmarion 3 and such stuff, but i don't use the 5mx any more. for one i needed bluetooth - who is as crazy nowadays as using infrared for internet? bleh!! wifi is just a nice extra for me but i know it is a must have today to sell something like this, so i'd definitely include wifi in this new 5mx.
even better, include gprs, edge, umts (evdo for usa), hsdpa, ... much better than to interface to a cellphone over bluetooth. its just a press of a button and you're online if the unit has a cellphone modem built in! not a clunky solution as needing to connect to the separate phone. must have for me. and it'd sell the product much better and easier to lots of people.

so, fluppeteer, you can't be serious when telling all these users to just continue using the 5mx. now epoc was a very efficient OS but a 36mhz cpu? 16mb ram? no onboard office compatibility? no decent web browser (dont mention opera, i could never open more than one window on my 5mx in it and ssl etc sucked.) no colour? no bluetooth, no wifi? please don't be kidding. amazing really. no, i want to have a device that is capable of more than the 5mx used to be, sorry, but the 5mx is just too old now. same deal software wise, just one small example, can't i have smtp auth for email? the psion doesn't have it. ridiculous. sigh.
and now dont tell me to go and use a nokia 9500, it is too stupid and nokiaish. its symbian OS is so limited as well. nowhere as powerful as CE. also if the nokia is the only one choice for a decent clamshell device then the world is really a bad place. we need to have more choices!! there are more users and more needs and more various ones than that.

now about the discussion whether it should be a pda or a pc, i'd say both make a pda version and a pc version i want mirc in my pocket anyway hmm and what about a dualcore like thing??? great idea!!

so, about the pda version, whether it is needed again: the niche that needs a simple yet powerful clamshell pda would be happy with it, with whatever OS - i'd prefer CE without the ppc gui but with a ppc compatibility layer. NO, different resolution isn't an issue and it has never been the real issue when trying to run a program on plain CE that was made for a ppc. the issue is some ppc specific stupid libraries and functions not available out of the box on CE. already partially solved and see what microsoft did for more compatibility when they just spent a little time on this creating an extra lib for ce - been a great help. (sorry for the rant on this, visit hpcfactor.com and you'll see what i mean )

both pc and pda versions - i want a clamshell that can go to tablet mode, you can then have everything in one!
i'd make screen 800x480 at least or better yet 1024x480, if some important xp programs need more than 480 in height (none of mine do) then either you go an insane dpi (1280x600 or whatever) or you'll need to redesign screen and entire case
as an OS, definitely xp.
you can't have a 7.2" screen or the whole thing will be too big otherwise. it should stay slim as well, yeah, 1" or so.. the sigmarion 3 has a nice slim design, only 21 mm, less than 1", and it does have a plain cylindrical li-ion battery without ruining the design!
check out sig3 for more details, its size is nice, larger than an 5mx, but much slimmer and that makes a big difference.
hmm maybe overall i'd agree with fluppeteer on the ux180 idea (screen small enough which makes the whole device small enough too), just give it a better keyboard and somewhat better battery and cheap extra batteries.... yes it's the way to go then. don't forget it keep the nice design i'm soo vain!
some more details though, i'd want solid state, not a hdd, did you see the comparison video between the sony ux'es, the one with a ssd (or cf, i dont care which) booted up much much faster than the hdd one. it is a hilarious video but i forgot where i saw it. also it is much less power consumption and they are getting cheap enough now. i'd want 16GB as a start but make it upgradeable.
ram, 512mb is really more than enough unless you want serious gaming or photoshop, neither of which you're going to be able to do on this system anyway. solder it, you need to save as much space as possible.
CF and SD would be real nice but i'd give up that for two usb ports and for a bigger battery.
the battery, it has to be a lithium-polymer as that can store more energy in the same space as li-ion (iiirc).. and you can even shape it as you'd like. ok, i did refer to sig3 earlier as having a slim design and a cylindrical li-ion, so this is mainly about having as much energy stored in the same space as possible.
as the x86 cpu would want 5 watts (less if underclocked? lets say 4 watts) you need a biiig battery 5 watts is a LOT for such a system.
the display can be made less power hungry (someone even mentioned oled), the hdd can be left out, you don't need a gpu/serious video chip, i dont have one even on my xp pc, but the cpu will be a pita.
for actual numbers, lets take the jornada 720, its li-ion battery can store about 18-19 Wh (when recelled with the best available cells), and it isn't big, so i think we could have 20+ Wh. this is nice but take 5 watts into account and see why an x86 cpu is such a pita. an arm cpu needs less than 0.5 watts... but we *need* x86 obviously.
i think with a very efficient design we can achieve a tolerable battery life especially if you make the extra batteries cheap! it would be small enough for me to carry an extra one with me
one last thing, about the software. give it some specific software that make the thing more usable out of the box. downsize xp, to some lite edition, so that it runs faster and more efficient, less battery consuming. tablet edition would be good for the touch screen. btw what is xp embedded like? i don't know much about it... could it be any good?
one more thing.. tell people not to use that crap outlook hehehe.

thats about it for now.. hope i gave some ideas from my different viewpoint.

hey
wow, thanks for such a nice and detailed reply!

glad to see some of my points came across, hope they are good ones that give more ideas

about the nokia 9500, it is not unusable, just sad to see what more it might have been which it isn't... after using the 5mx and handheld pc's. it really is screwed up by nokia imo. there are some users who live with it happily, but most don't.
when i said closed OS, i didn't mean there are no third pary apps, maybe it was the wrong name. what i meant is that this OS has a lot less going on, less software, less accessories, fewer possibilities overall.
the GUI isn't very bad but i miss the touch screen, and yes it is sluggish and full of bugs. not saying other OS'es dont have bugs
the keyboard is acceptable compared to others on other current pda's, but it is some steps backwards..
the screen res is less than on the 5mx - 5mx had 640x240, full hvga, the nokia is 640x200. 40 pixels may not sound much, but with this low height it does matter sometimes, and this is again backwards...

jasjar variants, yes their real problem is windows mobile, it is made a little too dumb to use, the GUI is annoying at least for me, you need utilities to make it usable.
windows mobile, however, at least has the power (existing and feasible possibilities) that symbian doesn't. i guess it's because it has more support from MS and from the developers who are already familiar with windows.
oh and yes the keyboard is not better than on the nokia...

so what does that leave... for me, only the handheld pc's i mentioned but again, they are no longer in production. some of them were until recently but no more.

to look forward in the future... what OS to use for this new 5mx... very realistic and practical question, yes. i was trying to offer as a possibility what i would like to see on it anyway, CE.
the older versions of it were indeed crap, i wouldn't put up with ce 2.0 for a longer while for example. but as i said (iirc), it is improving in stability, and in just about everything. it *is* actively developed and quite well.
the bad thing is that nowadays the pda's have CE only as the core, then they get the stupid ppc GUI on top of it. and the applications are written for this gui. though this isn't a problem that can't be overcome technically. the real problem is microsoft of course. i don't see any sign from them that they'd want to revive this platform (called the handheld pc platform a long time ago). so this suggestion wasn't the most practical, still, it would be the best usable - IMO on the other hand, i mentioned a compatibility mode for ppc programs. if that were possible, then it could help a lot. then if manufacturers started supporting this platform again it wouldn't take as much work to make it better than to build a new EPOC from scratch (no, source code isn't available). so, that's a little more practical bit of my rant
i see, you asked if there's a current version of CE that would work with the 5mx's form factor. yes, taking the above into account.

as for linux... thats another possibility, and that wouldn't have to be done from scratch, for one there's a lot of drivers already (i tried a lot of hardware accessories in my zaurus and almost never a problem!), and many programs can be ported (though many times not as simple as entering some commands to crosscompile for ARM). this would still need a lot of *organized* effort to make something more usable than the current qtopia. also marketing and whatnot (this applies to my first suggestion too but thats at least familiar microsoft ).

to make a new EPOC, the main problem wouldnt be the screen resolution (though can't remember now what was the max. res. supported by EPOC), but the code of the old programs. for one, EPOC wasn't unicode and symbian is. we shouldn't go back in time, unicode support is important. that's jsut one example. what about drivers, and new software, developers, etc? i guess that's the same you've been saying

about EPOC software, screen resolution usually wasn't an issue, just some apps had hard coded resolutions, but most apps written for the 5mx were fine for the netbook too, without explicit porting.
no, bluetooth was never available for the netbook pro with EPOC, only for the CE version (and that only because all CF bluetooth cards have CE or pocketpc drivers). the nokia 9500 is certainly much much better at connectivity than original EPOC some more bad things software wise though, the office software, the PIM, the browser, etc. weren't improved enough, except that it can at least open docs without converting.

hmm, the eternal question, whether to include a phone or not? i said yes, and it is mainly because of the common reasons, to have internet connectivity anywhere without having to depend on wlan availability, and to make the product "cooler" as well. won't be very practical to use as a phone but why not include it if there's already a modem (umts, evdo, hsdpa, etc...) :) doesn't have to be a very serious phone app suite / functionality.

a 36mhz cpu just isn't enough if you want to do some web browsing, without having to give up too much of the experience. i used to use the 5mx for this over infrared and gprs, but that wasn't very good, just emergency or if i was *very* bored. no efficient coding of the browser will help with that.
not saying i just want a web browsing machine, but web browsing capability is important today. what if you want to check your bank statements online, what if you want to win an ebay item in the last minute? what if you'd like to read the news online? or you're away from home for a couple of days and would like to check the usual stuff. etc. etc. :)
then, if you want to have the possibility to look at some videos sometimes, or at least open some images without having to wait minutes, that again requires a better cpu. you just will run into cases when you need to have this ability. you can't live isolated from the world getting along on your own without this.
i'm not that type of person who just wants multimedia, what's more i don't care too much about multimedia, but if a 36mhz cpu isn't enough even for me, what more can be said? :)
there is other software as well, for example navigation, voip, etc etc., all these require more than 36mhz.
colour is needed (again IMO) because it is easier on the eyes and helps differentiating stuff in software, gives more information (i.e. in images or even navigation software). it makes the display clearer, because you don't have to be squinting at a greenish-greyish image all the time. the 5mx screen wasnt very easy to read when indoors, even with the backlight. i was OK with it, my eyes aren't old yet, but colour is just so much better. real white-black is more suitable for ebooks even.
of course colour is also needed for the above multimedia purposes.
the battery life won't be helped by it of course, but i think the cpu and hdd are bigger problems regarding that..
office functionality, i'd like to be able to open doc's and xls'es, pdf, ppt, etc :) for example someone sends me an important document as an attachment in an email. can't require the person to convert it first. this level of office compatibility is already possible, so shouldn't go backwards.

ok, all in all.. there is indeed a split, it might be more complicated than just a pda user=wants pim and some texts vs pc user=wants the full pc compatibility and power. but you said that better... anyway, if the technology isn't ready to make an xp pocket machine without serious usability and other issues (battery, durability, costs, and possibly suspend-resume time), i'd prefer this way. on the other hand even if there are still some smaller issues with the above, i'd find it real cool and a worthwhile idea. so that's why i said both. :)

what did the 5mx wrongly? nothing but it got outdated. many more things are around now that we couldn't even dream of at that time in 1999... you can do much more with a computer today and it is much more useful, and to more people.

hope some of this (and my original post) helped to answer your very good question (which i think is the real point here), whether we need something newer than the 5mx when there is the 9500..

to add more to it, at the moment, i'm not sure if/how nokia will continue developing the communicator line, the 9500 is 2 years old and i wouldn't want to rely on nokia. there are very good handheld pc's but they aren't made any more (microsoft, sigh). the zaurus again is just one product from one manufacturer and no development has been done in the last years - yes the 3200 came out recently but it's no real improvement or anything. the only things added is a bigger hdd and a better sd slot. that's all!
the only really current thing is the jasjar, it is only 1 years old and might be developed further. again i could imagine something truly better, not this small, and with a better, more sensible gui, and extra functions - sure the jasjar has almost everythign but not quite everything.
what i wanted to say is that there are not enough current options, there is a gap that has to be filled and i see the need for it. (not just crazy myself :) )
for me that justifies a new product.
but who would/could make it? thats the real question now :)

back to the other option, a small xp pc with (most of) the issues solved. there would be surely a demand for that too! :)

now, i don't know how hard that would be technically, was just trying to outline how i would see it possible.
screen resolution, hmm, i do use acrobat and it would be fine (for me) but of course only if you hide the useless menus.
i'd still choose lower but more sensible and usable resolution.
if the screen is an oled or something like that maybe it could be 7,2" :)
solid state: if sony dared to make a version of their umpc with a solid state disk instead of a hdd, then i guess they somehow have been able to deal with the wearing out issue. don't know details about this, this is one thing that keeps nagging me as well.
batteries, i think li-po can store more energy, iirc i read so and i have batteries for the same device in li-ion and li-po format, and the li-po is much slimmer with the same capacity.
no idea about patents though...
stripping xp, could be possible, if you do it in a wise way maybe make stuff separately installable if needed.

as for your last lines (epoc vs ce), hehe glad that i've been able to show some different things.
a little more explanation on this.. in the time of epoc, CE was really really junk. but epoc didn't get developed further, while CE was and still is... and in the right direction (with the exception of the ppc). that makes the big difference for me! :)

I'll have to come back tomorrow and reply to the last couple of messages (I want to keep this debate going!), but I just wanted to say:

I've revised my opinion on the Libretto's 1280x768 7.1" screen. I no longer want one for a 5mx replacement.

I want one of these instead:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20061017PR207.html



Meanwhile, would those who started this topic would care to put us out of our misery and let us know whether it's a serious project?

You asked....

To my opinion, Psion series 5 was perfect, and there is not very much I'd like to be changed. The thing I liked most was the the extreme low power consumption: Batteries lasted for days, not for a few hours.
What I would like to see is a Psion 5 lookalike (same form factor) with a few additional features (USB, Bluetooth, slightly better screen resolution) and no power eating gimmics at all (VGA, harddisk etc). It should run on standard (!) batteries with the possibility of charging them in place. Standard batteries have the huge advantage that you can walk up to any grocery shop and buy a replacement if you happen to run out of power out in the fields.
And yes, I want an old fashioned serial port as well (Psions - starting from the organiser II - have always been perfectly suited for data capture).

Some people will hate me for that, but I'd prefer the Symbian OS. It is small and stable, and OPL is a simple but effective programming language. Forget Windows Mobile and all of the resource hungry Micro$oft crap!

In short: What I'd like to see is that the concept that made the Psion 5 so successfull should survive: An easily programmable/extendable personal assistant, versatile and user friendly, having a 'real' keyboard!
OK, I understand that some people rather want an high end PC squeezed into a small form factor, but - be honest - this would be interesting for a few freaks only, and would probably be a commercial desaster.

With having this said, feel free to bash me

I used to have a Psion and to me the key was the hardware design was so ergonomic in feel with a real touch type keyboard.

I disagree about their OS as an end user. I am no programmer or computer tech person. The reality is that everyone uses Microsoft and thus a mobile device must be able to read, edit, create all of the files etc. directly with other people with the mobile device and not need to go to a desktop for any conversions etc. I think that was their issue because they could never expect to keep up with continual changes in MS Word, etc. For me those were the reasons for switching to Jornada 728 as it had all of the actual MS applications on the device and it still ran for 14 hours.

The Jornada for me still is my primary mobile computer as the basic built in applications and the handful of specialty applications like pocket CAD, PDF viewer, etc. enable me to accomplish most of my computer needs. I desperately want to upgrade yet nothing is available.

I think new technologies like the origami devices and the Dulcor device prove that XP now can be in a small platform. Personally, I like the Dualcor concept and wished it used the Psion form factor. The Dualcor device has both Windows Mobile and XP. This enables long battery life when using Windows Mobile for basic word, excel, outlook etc. yet gives a person the ability to run an applicationly written for standard dekstop OS (XP).

It is not realistic to expect most software companies to write their product in multiple OS types. Thus most mobile users probably have at least a few programs in their industry only written in XP and to be able to have the ability to run that in a modern psion type device would be a god send.

I think it is clear from these postings and the reactions I still get daily about my 5 year old Jornada that most business people would buy a modern Psion right now! Computer companies have lost touch with functionality!

Mobilesalesman,

I agree with you that the compatibility with MS is always an issue. I am not like a devoted believer of Psion, so in principle I don't mind wether the OS is made by Psion or Microsoft or someone else. But I like the stability and interface of EPOC and I think it would be very nice if the madchine comes with EPOC OS with a build-in software like DocumentToGO or TextMaker. (As you know, they are more compatible with MS products than PocketOffice is.)

I agree that Jornada 7xxs are great machines even though they are getting old. MobilePro 900 and Sigmarion are in a way modern versions of Jornada, but I found the former too big and the latter look a bit too cheap.

As long as there is a way for me to install a linux distro for its architecture, I'm happy

There is a rumour, which seems fairly reliable to me, that Nokia will introduce a new communicator in few weeks which has a 'large screen' and a 'comfortable keyboard'. One person was describing it as being similar to Psion Revo...so perhaps the dream of some of us might come true soon.

Actually, I agree with you. It would be great if there was a communicator that just looks like Psion 5mx. Being touch-typable is important for me, too.

The sad fact is that normal average people would choose to buy just a laptop and a small mobile phone for that purpose...

I think people are missing the biggest point of all: This is NOT meant to be a laptop/desktop REPLACEMENT. It's a small, on-the-go handheld meant for remember a busy life. If you're complaing to make the screen bigger, go home and use your desktop.

Alright, a bulleted list is always clearer.

- OLED would indeed reduce power, but increase expense. Toss up between the two. Doesn't need to be huge

- I love the flipping keyboard. Keep it the way it is. It's innovative, different, and attractive. Keeper

- An addition to the keyboard would be possibly a backlight on the keyboard. Turning it on and off should be easy, either bound to a keystroke, or have a button somewhere on the frame.

- Who needs so much space on a small portable like this? 4GB Flash Drive should be more than enough. Must be NV for when your batteries mess up, so your system isn't wiped when you change batteries.

-Wi-Fi g required. If a 150 dollar Nintendo DS can have it, so should this.

- Stylus=Mouse=Yes

- Mic and headphone ports are a toss up, depending on how easily it could interface with VoIP, phone, or Skype-like communications. Headphones moreso than a mic

- Expandable with a sort of removeable interface, not neccisarily a CF, but in the same genere of storage. SD or somesuch.

-USB Host. I want to be able to plug a Jump/Tumb/Click drive into it and off-load files easily.

- In terms of the CPU, as we've seen in the Palms and whatnot, a fast CPU isn't as required as one would think, and if you get a slower CPU, your battery life will grow remarkably.

-Who needs so much RAM? 128 or 256. 512 tops.

-Rechargeable batteries. Sell extras for a bargain price and GIVE THEM A CASE, or allow the use of AA alkalines for a pinch.

- Dock. Get a dock. It makes it slicker to sync with a desktop. If you allow multiple batteries, allow a slot to charge an extra one.

-Multiple colors. Some people WANT a hot pink one. What about our tech-savvy ladies that have to be in style? Maybe go the route of the Cell Phone and have snap-on/off face plates to change the style. College logos, sports teams... When you get snap-on faceplates, nothing is holy or un-marketable. If not multiple colors, a steel case would be practicle, and make your product last twice as long. I'm definatly going to replace a good product that lasts me three years. I'd think twice about the same product that lasted me 1.

- GOOD dictation software.

-Scroll wheel, or a muli-directional joystick/eraser head soley for the use of panning a screen.

-Free reign of internet browser choices. IE, Firefox, Opera, Maxthon, anything.

Now, here's the kicker. If you can balance price with power, you've got yourself a winner. I know people that would shell out 200-300 even 400 USD for a nice handheld, but if you go over a certain point, they'll just lug around a laptop with them. You've got to make people have a REASON to buy your product, and a good reason is that it will offer Laptop-like capablities at a pittace of the cost, and a fraction of the size.

Valid point on the touch type keyboard, mobilesalesman...

You're right, anything else is already out there. The thumb keyboard on my Treo is GREAT... when compared to my old 3 letter per key cell phone. It doesn't fly for email, document creation, or even serious editing.

If we're going to change the world one Psion at a time, we've got to fill the void between smart/PDA phones and laptops with the type of device that works so well and seemlessly you forget you even use it. (after you're done showing it off to EVERYONE you know!)

I also liked the idea of making it a USB host... but realized if it had a USB 2.0 port, it automaticaly IS a host.

On the topic of storage... I'm so used to needing all kindsa gigs for my music, photos & video that 40-60 GB felt necessary. FLIP-FLOP! I agree that about 4-6GB of NV solid-state memory would suffice... provided your OS didn't hog most of it! Multimedia is key, but could be stored on an external HD or 2GB SD cards. A plastic case that holds 8 of those babies would be your own music/video library!

I'm surprised I forgot GPS... If your new Psion replaced the in-dash navigation in your Lexus you'd save $1000 (PER CAR!) or $400 -$ 600 if it replaced your portable Garmin device. On board speakers would double for the speakerphone, or multimedia in a pinch.

I've come to realize that the larger size is required for full keyboard functionality... The tag-line could be "Go big or stay home!" It just puts more pressure on this device to have iPod-like success so it will spur mfrs to come out with Psion vests and cargo pants to make carrying this mobile wonder more comfortable. I've yet to adopt the man-purse... My Treo still fits in my cell phone pocket of my bag and jacket, so it's larger size doesn't bother me. Much longer and I'd worry it would fall out.

What about a built-in camera for video-conferencing on the fly? It could grab a picture or short video in a pinch. An external USB video camera option (like my Archos) would be a great way to catch your son's football game without lugging the ol' HandyCam, recount that epic mountain bike ride on your "business" trip, or if you just want to feel like James Bond. Do you think the touch screen could drive my BMW too... !?

Thanks for reading this far... sorry if I got carried away!

Shotgun

OK Fellaz, here's our compromise on price...

Take all the same plastic & metal parts and make 2 or 3 different levels:

STARTER - Does email, internet, schedule, office apps, 4GB storage, 256MB RAM, USB 2.0 & SD slot, standard processor & battery. ($299)

WORKHORSE - Add cellular phone/data, BlueTooth, 6GB NV solid-state storage, 512MB RAM, upgrade processor & battery life. ($599)

BLING - Pile on the gadgets! GPS, multimedia, video conferencing, 1GB RAM, upgraded processor & battery, solar recharging... the list goes on! ($1499)

The tooling and OS are the same across the board, you just upgrade the options... just like laptops & PCs. You could potentially offer many of the BLING features as upgrades to a STARTER or WORKHORSE model, since the nuts & bolts are the same.

Once you introduce the cellular component, you can also get the carrier to offset a big chunk of the price in exchange for a 2 year phone/data agreement.

'Nuff said. - Shotgun

alright, i by no means mean to be the most knowledgeable person here, but alot of people are posting things way off either side of the spectrum. i dont think full pda is the answer, because it doesnt make for revolutionary product, and a full on laptop in that size although nice would probably just get way too expensif (sub-notebooks already exist and are well over 2000$ for the most part) What i would like to see is something right in between, so that you are not limited by pda functions, but also not trying to carry a desktop worthy computer in your pocket. im thinking about 1ghz processor, maybe underclocked a little, about 8 gb solid state, and about 256 megs of ram. with these kinds of specs you could end up with something running a windows mobile (ce) or whatever it is, or a light linux distro preferably. This way it is perfect for word processing, web browsing and email and even light media, music, pictures. it would also boot in about 20s. which would be fantastic

hoping this project goes foreward