RuneScape Exposed Part 1: An Education Kids Don't Need - Page 3

[quote="Arkhanaut"]

I don't know what kind of malls you have down there.. but here we got sophisticated surveillance and highly trained minimum wage security!

Does Jagex have that!

PS I was a security guard at a hospital, a psychiatric hospital and a large building, it sucks. Now I got a better job with alot better pay! Luckily I had "seniority" - a 20 year old (at the time) with "seniority", so I didn't haft to work at the crappy malls! Hot nurses..

Of course it's a straw man. It was created to show my opinion of the idea that parents or children cannot be accountable. IMO, a game doesn't need a "Parent's Guide" at all, but if a parent decides to rely totally on some literature created by developers, good luck to them.

Yup. But then, it's hard to develop a thick skin without getting hurt. Wrapping kids in cotton wool helps nothing.

If they bother to take an interest in their child's activities, then they do get to decide. The only way Jagex is in the driving seat, or in the wrong at all, is if parents leave their children on the computer for hours on end with no supervision. And that, to my mind, is the fault of the parent.

Sorry, it's not just a "weird" analogy, it's a completely invalid one.

No, I want to provide an online resource for players who want to protect themselves against falling victim to scams. The scammers already know them -- it's new players who do not.

I'm doing exactly what is done in the real world. When a new exploit is discovered in Microsoft Windows, does it get publicized? If there's a scam like the 409 scam, do we not get word out to protect people?

Jagex's silencing of scam information is purely self-serving.

Go to the tip.it forums and look around, there are threads on it. I can't find anything official because Jagex won't allow it to be discussed.

It IS possible, because there are bugs that Jagex has not fixed and refuses to warn people about.

More parroting of Jagex's propaganda.

Tell me: if Jagex is so worried about people getting "malware" visiting third party sites, why do they force third party sites to provide essential information because they refuse to?

Just me? No. Thousands of people getting mugged every day? You bet your bippy that people will complain that the mall isn't doing enough.

c

So good advice is now propaganda? If so, then that proves there is nothing wrong with propaganda and the point is invalid.

As far as I am aware, Jagex does not force anyone to do anything. They do not have links that open sites on your desktop to these 3rd-party sites, they do not refuse access to the game unless you visit these sites. They simply advise not to use them.

As for refusing to provide essential information, again this is completely untrue. They refuse to allow people to discuss this information on the forums because most likely people will get details wrong in their posts and others would be misled. So to make sure they have what they feel are valid points regarding the issues, the knowledge base is there for that very purpose. This is both good common and business sense in my opinion.

If a person is desperate to talk about things not allowed on the runescape forums, then as you said there are plenty of 3rd party places for them to do so. Tip-it being a good example.

Yes, that's what updates are for. Bugs get fixed as fast as possible and within priority-based timelines. They are hardly going to advertise all the bugs they come across, (again - good business sense) - but more likely to fix each bug as they are able to within the time constraints and let the populace know when each is done.

How on earth do you suppose upon this statement? What possible benefit would Jagex gain from players scamming each other. There's no profit to be made - if anything it is loss as more players would give up playing.
There's no material wealth gained from it.
There's no public relations benefit from it.
Exactly what would they be hoping to achieve from it exactly?

But you already said that the game isn't the real world. It is because people such as players and the like incorporate real-world mechanics into a fictional setting that these discussions even arise.

I was expecting a reason after this statement.....

And you're using your energy to complain about losing a couple of unreal items in a computer game whilst this is going on? Why not campaign against the police not doing a good enough job or the war in Iraq or murders in the streets - the list continueth...

Common sense? Personal investigation? Surely a parent would want to take an active understanding into things like this? Which is what the parent page on the site is for.

I'd be interested to see if someone could write a full parental guide on what their children should expect in the world - or even just a town - on one page, outlining all the dangers of what goes on out there, the trials, the problems, the joys, the laughter, the emotions, the relationships, the confusions and heartaches.

Maybe even 2 pages perhaps?

Wow I can't believe I just read all these posts!
I started playing Runescape because my kids were playing and I wanted to find out what they were into.
What I have learned about the game:
There are scammers, cheaters etc. My son once got scammed buying a rune kite. He was more cautious about his trades after that.
There is a way to report these(how effective it is I am not sure)
Jagex like microsoft and others have bugs that float around in their software sometimes for long periods of time.(yes the bug in player owned houses is there) I just bought a $1,000.00 peice of software that is after a few months of being out at version 4.022 or something like that and it still has bugs. Not saying they shouldn't do something about it and prioritize it better
Players can also be reported for bug abuse and Jagex "says" it takes it seriously.
There seems to be pmods at half the places I go to in the game, but they are never around when you need them I have had the pleasure though of watching someone breaking the rules and being punished on the spot by a pmod who just happend to be observing.
The population of players in runescape have more than doubled since I first started playing which will means that social problems and the like will also increase. Their client base has evidently outgrown there ability to deal with some of these problems.
I have met some very nice people that I enjoy conversing with.
A lot of the updates are kinda lame and geared to keep the lower level players playing.
Like life things that happen in the game are not always fair.
I try to educate people in the game when bad things happen to them.
I think your website idea is good.
You do raise a lot of valid concerns. I did find it a little chicken littleish at first but did not understand your perspective and objective. I thought it was just a bashing article.

Well on the official RS forums, the Rants section of the forum:

391677 threads
7464031 posts

So much for nobody else giving negative points about the game.

But if you really want to see something fun, then:

Type "I hate runescape" into google
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl= [...] arch&meta=

But what is even more impressive however, is type in "I love runescape"
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl= [...] arch&meta=

And I think that generally sums everything up in one!

By no account are negative aspects of the game unproduced, but similarly the positive opinions appear to outweigh the negatives by almost 3 to 1.

Case closed.

Thank you, thank you.....

Just an FYI.. Rob and I have added a note to page one of this piece to reflect Jagex's rule change today. I also substantially rewrote my lengthy discussion of the luring issue in part 2, still scheduled for Monday.

Thanks.

c

Yeah, I expect a lot from parents. I think that puts me more "right field" than "left field", but nvm. I don't base my opinions on what part of the "field" it puts me on.

At the end of the day you're not under obligation to do anything. Promote the company, produce high quality articles, etc etc. However, your point seems a tad egotistical, as previous posts have pointed out that plenty of people have followed the same quest. Are you going to start investigating Enron too?

Hi im not a mmorpg player or whatever i just thought that the author should include a link or 2 in part 2
for example
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Cheats_and_scams
just a list of scams and cheats to make people more aware.
if you cant stop the people from being abusive,then equip the players with knowledge
or something like that

Charles, you said earlier that you plan on making a site that will provide players with helpful information on how to prevent themselves from being scammed. Will you actually do this? I mean, if you can find all these problems, surely you should have no trouble whatsoever advertising the website, finding solutions to these problems, making it with SIMPLE enough graphics to keep the 5 YEAR OLDS entertained why they look at your website.

Also, have you told Jagex about your list of complaints? Maybe this is the best way to get them fixed, as no one can advertise RuneScape better than its creators, Jagex.

You can't fix the problems you see simply by telling other people, you must go to the source and for you, this is Jagex.

Actually thats untrue. Todays update to rule 2 was accomplished AFTER Jagex had washed their hands of the matter. They had made their decision and were sticking by it.

Some players felt this was in error and made attempts to have this fixed - some very successfully - by telling other people. People that mattered these people didn't include Jagex. as Jagex wanted to hear no more on the subject.

I would actually like to take this opportunity to give a quote directly from Andrew Gower (The creator of Runescape) that was posted - I assume - yesterday following the rule change:

I think this says just about everything I have said in this thread, really.

If that doesn't prove to people that Jagex is looking to improve the community and is against scamming and luring alike, then there's no hope for you and debating here isn't going to change anything.


As you can also see, by simply clarifying the rule about luring there was a huge outcry in the Runescape populace. Many people were infuriated with not being allowed to do this - or more accurately, still not being allowed but now they can't get away with it. But that's always going to be the way with a populace in excess of 9 million. There is never going to be a time when everyone is happy with decisions made.

This is why Runescape is ever changing. Also, as Mr Gower states - Runescape is most definitely not aimed at children as a target audience. It is actually produced for people of an 18+ age range, BY people of an 18+ age range.

Besides, most kids wouldn't get the humor of a lot of the references to films etc in the game either way.

Edit: And you can't call this "parroting Jagex's propaganda" either before you start! Lol!

Yes, I had hoped to have it ready for launch coincident with Part 2 but am not sure I can quite be ready by then.

I don't understand this comment. Actually, my usual writing is highly technical (c.f. [url=http://tcpipguide.com/free/t_toc.htm]The TCP/IP Guide[url]) and I am making a deliberate effort to make my writing simpler for TruthScape. However, it is aimed at teens and adults, not kids -- I am trying to educate people who should be on RS or deciding for kids, not the kids themselves. Oh, and no graphics at all to start with.

Countless people have told Jagex about these issues countless times.

Charles

The fact that the rule was changed shows this to be incorrect.

That's a fallacy. The fact that the rule was changed shows that they have done ONE thing to prevent scamming. And all they did was undo a previous, grossly wrong decision.

As I've already said several times, there are scams in the game right now that Jagex:

[*:bd00d00aa6] Knows about;
[*:bd00d00aa6] Could fix with minimal effort;
[*:bd00d00aa6] Hasn't fixed;
[*:bd00d00aa6] Doesn't warn people about; and
[*:bd00d00aa6] Covers up when others try to warn people.


That is tangible proof that they are not doing all they could to stop scamming.

I have a degree in Computer Engineering and have been programming off and on for 25 years. Don't tell me that changing the color of magic logs from beige to blue, or instituting a 5-second delay on the "Accept" button in the trade interface would be complex work for a company like Jagex.

Whereas using random quotes from a forum as evidence is laughable at best.

The "random quote" in my prior post was from Andrew Gower. It's contained in the longer quote you yourself put at the top of this page.

No, it wouldn't. That's the second time now that you have leveled a false accusation at me. If you really aren't intending to make this personal, as you said before, then please stop.

Charles

The TG Forumz use Google ads, which are basically a marketplace that serves ads relevant to the content. The ads shown are based on which companies are willing to pay the most for particular keywords.

Those cheating sites pay the most for the word "Runescape" because they make the most money off the game, catering to cheaters and usually using bot armies. So any time Runescape is discussed in a place with Google ads, their ads show up.

They are also all over most fan sites.

Charles

Actually thats untrue. Todays update to rule 2 was accomplished AFTER Jagex had washed their hands of the matter. They had made their decision and were sticking by it.

Some players felt this was in error and made attempts to have this fixed - some very successfully - by telling other people. People that mattered these people didn't include Jagex. as Jagex wanted to hear no more on the subject.

What you are saying is that telling more is making more people aware of the problem so that they do not fall into it. This does not remove the problem to anyone who does not know of its exsistance.

Ah no... what i was saying is that some of us including me, actively involved people who had the ability to get our point across to Jagex in an appropriate manner. I didnt simply stand in game shouting "scammer! scammer!" if thats what you thought i meant.

For instance the subject was raised on BBC Radio. Jagex refused to listen to the players within the game environment. So we went elsewhere.

No, it wouldn't. That's the second time now that you have leveled a false accusation at me.

You seem to take this very personally - I wonder why?
So you didn't change anything in the quote then? My mistake.

There seems to be a lot of conspiracy theories about this whole thing flying around.

Jagex doesn't change anything - people complain and moan. Jagex reponds and changes it to make them happy - people complain and moan that they only changed it because it was moaned about. Well then, what's the point?

I'm beginning to understand why Jagex (might) want nothing more to do with this sort of thing.

Somehow I can't see Andrew Gower saying:
"lol nub i gawet scammed 5.4m but i aint cryin so stfu" which is the quote I was referring to.

No, that is opinion. I'm still waiting for tangible proof. Something like a letter or official post from Jagex stating something along the lines of:
"We are fully aware of the scamming in runescape, but don't wish to fix these issues."

Or a forum post from a Jagex mod perhaps?

Simply stating something doesn't mean it is proof. Like I said before, if there is actual tangible proof, I'll be happy to shut up and accept it.

Things can only be fixed bit by bit. I am sure you understand the vast size and magnitude of Runescape. You can't fix everything at once. Give them a chance to fix things as fast as they can.

Andrew was replying to that particular quote. Did you read the rest of the sentence? It matters!

These problems have been around for years (apparently) and everyone has always been aware of them - yet they haven't stopped Runescape's growth.

It amazes me how people are so suspicious that when a company changes a policy for the benefit of others they instantly assume that it's because the company fears bad publicity. Why can't people accept that when a good thing happens, it's for them and not some ulterior motive?

If I were Jagex, the sheer lack of gratitude would compel me to scrap the rule change and go back to as it was before.

I'm saying that you can't stop the problem. Ya, the problem was Jagex allowed luring and now they don't. So? Would it have been any different had the problem been something else?

That's like trying to say I have jam on toast for lunch and now I don't.

Because you're attacking me personally.

I cleaned up the grammar and spelling for publication. This is routinely done and is not "falsifying evidence".

Stop going in circles, I don't appreciate having my time deliberately wasted.

The point is to try to do the right thing, and that's what Jagex (finally) did.

No, that is opinion.

Talk's cheap. Action counts.

People and companies spend time on what is important to them.

Jagex's lack of action to eliminate easily-fixable scams is proof that they do not make dealing with scamming a high priority.

Your statement was still false, which is why I corrected it.

I understand that it is unacceptable for a company pulling in over $50 million a year to not fix scams that they've known about for months, while they devote hundreds of hours to porting the game to German.

Because Jagex has prioritized growth over fixing problems, because they are targeting the game at kids (which is a growth market) and because they and their apologists (like you) do a great job of hiding the dark underbelly of the game.

They didn't do it for "gratitude". They did it to avoid a PR nightmare, as I said before.

Charles

Lol. Whether my opinions on parenting are "too much" or not really isn't for you to decide

No, but then that's not the analogy with your article. If now, somebody restarted the investigation, digging over the same dirt, with a big "Exposé" sign over it, it could be considered biased.

At the end of the day, I don't think our views on modern media consumption, article writing, parenting or psychology can be reconciled. I think I'll stick to hardware on THG, and get my gaming fix elsewhere. (Gamershell, for example.)

I'm going to haft to try to play Runescape and get into the community forums and see for myself - nah, i've seen enough with GW, anet can only do so much, they do what they can, and they're real good and fast, after that, it's up to players and parents. It sounds like Jagex is a little slow...

I showed my youngest year old sister oblivion, if she was 10, I wouldn't of, although she watched me play Half Life when she was like 8 or 9, she really liked it, it freaked her out, and I got to play Half Life all I wanted... I don't have kids, I love video games, and would probably play video games with my kids, but not online MMOs, imo, just too many creepy people...

*cough* charles, synergy, buck, arkhanaut, who else am I forgetting..? *cough* - too creepy

This is a reply and lengthy rebuttal to Arkhanaut

Because you are attacking him rather then coming up with educated and pithy statements to complement your point of view. Hence, my comment that you are attempting to hijack the thread. (As a former Flight Attendant, I am very familiar with the term hijacking in all contexts…steering away from the original destination on an airplane…steering away from the crux of the thread in forums)

If you are here to give your informed point of view then please do so. I contend that you read the rule change on the front page when you logged in to Runescape and found the rule change in the rules before you commented and pasted here. Why you would deny that is unclear.

Were I to attack you as you have done to Charles, I might imply that this looks like you are a Jagex plant, but being you aren't countering well, hopefully not a paid one. (tongue taken from between teeth and firmly planted in cheek)

Lying and scamming others to get their items, was always in Jagex own rules (rule2). The moaners are now those scammers who lured as their "livelihood". Many of them are moaning we took away their "right" to easy money that was ill gotten from other players. Now who is correct in wanting a change? We parents and honest people who complained and continued to do so even though we were thwarted by Jagex, or the lurers who tricked and scammed and abused bugs and are now complaing we have taken away their livlihood. That is the crux, not the fact that you cannot please all the people all the time.

so you are agree that Jagex washed their hands of applying their own rules.

Then you should have referred to it.

That proof is in the original pking sticky and the comments from the "luring now condoned" threads in forum feedback. Somehow I have the feeling you know that

For someone who is so "passionately" opposing any negative view of Jagex, you have come here unarmed. Every thread prior to March 29th(except the hidden one which they allowed) about luring was locked and replied to by a forum mod or jmod.

In Runescape forums, search for 'luring" and in general search engine 'runescape forums luring'. Once you have done a general search, you can access the Runescape "search threads' at the top of the page. I would be happy to paste them here, but I have my own blog which refers to them, and I don't wish to usurp Charles and his article coming on Monday.

Great! do the search and let's see if that is true.

You are arguing that it is a fallacy yet show no proof. Hmmmm Jagex did not do anything...other then buckle under from external pressure to follow their rules. Oh, and may I remind you that rule 2, item scamming never changed, yet Jagex clearly made a mockery of the rule and caused the problems by placing the sticky in the pking forum where no one but pkers usually read...making luring into the wilderness legal.

The bug that I reported 2 years ago is still being used to exploit Jagex's non-compliance with rule 2. The bugs which I reported months ago are still being exploited to force people into the wilderness. The wilderness is not defined. People can still be forced into the wilderness by trading and running. There are a plethora of changes Jagex should have made ages ago, besides those, but the sheep being fluffy seemed to be the priority

It all matters. As Charles has already noted, he was sure to include 'everyone' as their target audience, just as they state in the knowledge base. Andrew is referring, by the way, to the people who are lurers who are commenting that Runescape is more concerned with children who are 8 and under and 'noobs" then their ill-gotten livlihood. (rule 2 update sticky...forum: recent updates, and locked threads on that subject which you can search as well. Amazing how I keep up because I am interested and wish to make informed comments.....and I don't even play the game anymore)

Yes the growth of immature, underage and scamming population has increased. I am sure you are aware that lurers make at least 10 or more throw away accounts, made purely to scam. (proof is also in the same search above as scammers are bragging even now that they made accounts solely for that purpose) Jagex had washed its hands of luring and we made sure the dirt was not swept under the carpet.

We were suppressed from using the forums. There was no other motivation other then our continued pressure from outside sources...blogs, comments on review sites, emails, customer support complaints, phone calls and emails to the media, and of course the invaluable support of parents who are journalists and an investigative reporter. We are happy Jagex finally came to their senses, but Jagex admitted they were wrong only after we pressured them for 6 weeks.

What a crock. And if they did do that you would still be defending them I see.

I don't understand your point. I (and Wildy) are saying that we did what we could to influence Jagex to undo a bad decision, and appear to have been successful.
There must be thousands who have written giudes like you and you are saying that yours is the only one that Jagex is listening to. Also, there must be hundereds of thousands or millions even who have reported alot of these things you have listed to Jagex themselves. You're saying that Jagex ignored those who went directly to them and went looking for YOUR guide just to change rule 2?

Also, I was replying to Wildy. He said that Jagex allowed luring and now they don't. So what? I could be wearing a jacket and then take it off, thus, not wearing a jacket. Then he says "I'll let you figure it out". He's trying to say that this particular guide is a DIRECT cause of the change, instead of the complaints that millions of people would have sent in or Jagex's own decision deciding by themselves that they should make luring illegal.

huh? No one wrote a guide...well except Jagex. Jagex has an incomplete parent guide and also has endorsed an official runescape guide written for children aged 9 to 12. Charles has written an editorial.

You are misinterpreting what was said as well. Jagex did ignore customer complaints to the usual great extent and when they did reply it was often a form letter. My complaint reply said thanks for asking for a clarification on luring and I got a copy of the "luring into the wilderness is not against the rules". Oh, and Jagex ignored the thousands of luring complaints from day one yes, but we did not know that until recently....and they did nothing about it. So um, no , obviously the complaints had little effect on their own.

There were lots of people involved with external pressure on Jagex. The we Charles is referring to is a collective "we". No one said Jagex was influenced by one person's actions, but this article did have an influence.

Well Jagex did not make the decision themselves. 6 weeks to take out a sticky and admit they were wrong? Being that Jagex needed external pressure to get a conscience, I would say that any negative responses that were out there publicly had a direct impact on the change of heart by Jagex. Again, you are reading things into the replies that are not there.

huh? No one wrote a guide...well except Jagex. Jagex has an incomplete parent guide and also has endorsed an official runescape guide written for children aged 9 to 12. Charles has written an editorial.

You are misinterpreting what was said as well. Jagex did ignore customer complaints to the usual great extent and when they did reply it was often a form letter. My complaint reply said thanks for asking for a clarification on luring and I got a copy of the "luring into the wilderness is not against the rules". Oh, and Jagex ignored the thousands of luring complaints from day one yes, but we did not know that until recently....and they did nothing about it. So um, no , obviously the complaints had little effect on their own.

There were lots of people involved with external pressure on Jagex. The we Charles is referring to is a collective "we". No one said Jagex was influenced by one person's actions, but this article did have an influence.

Well Jagex did not make the decision themselves. 6 weeks to take out a sticky and admit they were wrong? Being that Jagex needed external pressure to get a conscience, I would say that any negative responses that were out there publicly had a direct impact on the change of heart by Jagex. Again, you are reading things into the replies that are not there.

Unlike you who can only pick the eyes out of other's posts by finding minor flaws (much like charles did with RuneScape), I use my common sense to look at the posts and then see if I can say something about it. 9 million people play, atleast 10,000 people would have sent in a complaint, so what if Jagex turned down the first 2,000, maybe the others weren't turned down and maybe that was what caused Jagex to do this.

Out of the millions of people who play RuneScape, atleast 100 would have written a guide, even if they didn't advertise it on the internet.

Also, do you have proof that this article played a part? Have you gone to Jagex and asked? If you do and they say yes, this article did play a major part in the decision, then you would be right, if not, then I would be.