How to Revolutionize the MMORPG - Page 2

2nd point.


Changing world!

We like to explore different things, this is the reason, why we play rpg. Some of us go to places in MMOrpg which are not build for us, to see what they look like. By entering high lvl ground or even using glitches to get to land not ready yet.
So we NEED a changing world.

I. Computer rules the world, and changes it.

As suggested before, it WOULD be cool, if several AIs could fight over the virtual land, and we could be in the thick of it. Well, even the best program today, is not an AI. Computers don't get ideas, they cannot think, or even react, they can only do what someone told them to do, if something happens. It could be done, so it would feel, like there were AIs, but it would be extremly difficult, even today, because...there are a bunch of stupid things called "human players", they tend to destroy, the best AI plan, by something called "thinking".
AI controlled realms, are a playground for abuse. The computer cannot defend itself, from mischeavious players. But it could under care of GMs add fun to the game.

II. GMs rule the world and change it.

Well, well, to some degree, it is, what we see now in MMOrpg. GM generated content, gets to us players, via updates, patches and addons, or events.
GMs playing around with a realm, would be cool, but it would be also expensive. How many players, do you need, to feed a GM, beside, the server costs, and costs from making the game, or and you know, some companies, want to make profit, maybe to make annother game sometimes in the future or just to buy a golden humvee.
Cool, but way to expensive. (or is it? we could use all the gold farming chinese/korean/malaysian for this, they are cheap...*badjokemodeoff*)

In some extend, it is doable, would cost more per month, and as Hannibal said, forget the idea of 1 DM per player group. You cannot even just take what 1 hour work would cost, this GM needs to be on standby. What if more people want to play then usual? You need to have backups. What if people want to play at night? Do you close the dungeons at night??? Those people sitting around waitig for their group would need payment too...

III. Some Players rule the world and change it.

Also suggested by some people, what if we give players, the power to implement their own content. Maybe, custom dungeons. Custom PvP maps. Or player driven events.
Even more dangerous, than PCs changing the world. Abuse, abuse, abuse.
You cannot, controll such a feature. It WOULD BE COOL. But, as good, as it sounds, most people are selfish.
Sure, if a DM makes his dungeons too difficult, no one will play it, but what if someone makes it too easy? How to tell, which loot to give away? I make a dungeon, that is almost impossible, and build in a glitch, to beat it with one frost shock.
The only way, to do it, would be with "trusted" players. How find them? How distinguish between them? How compensate them? (they are not playing the game, they are working. yes, most of us would like to do such a thing, but you would need to do it a lot of the time! or it would not work)
They would be halfGMs.

This could only work, if you had the DM as a faction vs. the adventures. It would be a whole different game, more like Dungeon Keeper. Or if those trusted would to some extend realy work for the company.

IV. Anyone can change the world.

Been there, done that. Any game, with player driven economics, does it. It has not been done to much extend, but it has been done.
Most of the time, it tends to ruin the game. Because, there is always somone who wants to abuse it.


So, which way would be the most, realistic but fun one? A nice mix of all, maybe. You cannot do much to change a world in the nutshell, that is WoW. A world this small, needs smal changes, and they can go way wrong. It would need, 24/7 care, and only very carefully executed changes.
A bigger scale, like in 3025 with GM or trusted Players, controlling the overall strategy of realms could be fun, and is doable.

Also, changing characterictics of the world could be fun. Why not change the monsies in one big dungeon, from dragons with fire resistance, to worgs with an affinity to poisons? (they raided the place and stayed^^) Just, for one week, one day, or one ID. It has been done in WoW a little, with resistence in BWL. But it did not change the "experience" much.


PS. This whole, changing world thing would be way cool. Any company which does it, combined with a real good game would be for me the next big winner in the market. But i do not think, that anyone would even try it, because of the costs involved. And MMOrpg are costly enough (they can bring in much money, but if they don't they are wastland to dollar crops). Ad it as a new feature to a succsesfull game. Then you could maybe pay for it.
Or offer deluxe servers, which cost more.

I recommend playing Guild Wars. It overcomes most of the complaints I've seen here and lacks only a persistant world (Which Guild Wars 2 will be sporting in 2008-2009). Theres no fees and runs with a fanastic engine. I've seen many leave WoW to find a richer experience in GW. It may not be a true MMORPG, but who cares what its called as long as it does the job and applies more enjoyment. It may not be for everyone. Its not a WoW chaser. Best of luck to those searching for a new experience.

What can I say that hasnt been said by every poster here =P.

Its weird so many people mentioned LOTR, but from the same peepz @ codemasters they have their first mmo.. RF Online.

For me its not the "perfect" mmo, but in my opinion there isnt another mmo like this out there.

Lets get the Cons out of the way:
It is a grind.
Yes you need to farm.
Yes there are farmers(the non english speaking type) but the world will respawn enough mobs so they really dont get in your way.
There are bosses but they spawn once very 6-8 hours (i forget).

The pros
3 Races
PVP just about anytime anywhere except Home base map.
3 All out wars a day between the 3 races.

And why it does fail.. but heck maybe it'll be fixed in the patch after the upcoming patch....
There is a Humongous Race imbalance. Simply you want to win in the end game play the Cyborg race. If your squishy... your squishy =P

With all that said. The community is great (this is all 3 races too), game play is your run of the mill timed skill/magic attacks. Pretty much RF Online the game has a solid base for gameplay mechanics but ultimately it is the players that make "most" of the content.

I dont think there will ever be a end all be all mmo, I tried wow, it bored me. I rather play the 2d Ragnarok.. -_-

Like i said its not the "perfect" mmo, but I cant think of one better =P IMO.

Turning an MMOrpg into a fps... would make it a fps =P I happen to like the cool downs and levels. It is a rpg after all, and i've been gaming since bbs's were around with Tele-Arena on Gcomm bbs's, and then Clarion fields when the internet just started to hook up=P. Anyone Remember MUDS? =P

I think it might be fun if they incuded a good game editor so that you could make and run your own quests, maybe just as an option instead of playing with thousands of people you have an option to play your own campain with say around 10 or so friends and one of your runs the campain as a DM or somthing. (simalar to getting together with a group of friends on the weekend to play an old pen and paper RPG)

The other thing I hate about most MMORPGs is having to pay every month to play a game that I already bought, I just wouldn't get my moneys worth.

I would like to see the following implemented in future MMOs

I would like to see a world where you can choose a life on a planet or in space, you can travel from planet to planet for different things. You could invest in a ship, make it a cargo ship or a war ship, or maybe invest in a company and roam around making money and improving your ship/company. You woudn't have to loot, but would be paid for jobs you perform. You could trave farther out from the core worlds to more less populated worlds where you can take on more jobs but have less chance of getting help or stay close to the core worlds where there are more players and a better chance of finding help.
The jobs available are based on your class/abilities/equipment and are never quite the same. (I mine copper ore, you mine tin.) If you share your quest with someone, your pay is split too. Jobs (Quests) are more chain driven, and maybe even designed that the more you do for the same NPC, the better/harder the quests you get from him. You can still share those jobs (quests) with anyone you want, but the pay still gets split. Have jobs (Quests) where let's say you are a miner, you need to "Hire" protection while you mine. You will have to pay the other players (or maybe NPCs) to protect you.
You can choose any race and be anyone of several classes with the ability to learn from other classes. (I.E. warrior with a smaller healing ability.) You wouldn't be as strong maybe as a hybrid but you could customize your character more for your playing style. (warrior not as strong as a pure warrior and healing not as powerful as a pure healer, but you can at least heal yourself a little during solo missions. Kind of like First aid but better.) The longer you play a class the more powerful you become. So eventually the warrior can become a powerful healer too, but would still be a weaker warrior than if he spent his whole time as a warrior.
Crafting would be a class, not just a subclass. Something you can devote your time to instead of fighting. You would have to gather in safer places or hire players/NPCs to protect you. It would be just like any other class so you could become a warrior who makes guns instead of healing.

The idea is you can go where you want, do what you want, don't have to fight for jobs. Not everyone gets the same job.

My suggestions for a revolutionary MMORPG are as follows, some of these have been covered already by other people but just the same here they are:

1.) NO LEVELING/CLASSES: I've always thought that skills should be based on skill use, similar to Ultima Online. You can build whatever template you want for that character. Since their were no levels, you had to find more practical ways to estimate your opponents capabilities. This added more excitement to the game, by adding an element of the unknown.

2.) DYNAMIC WORLD: Things change over time. A tree or plant may be indigenous to one area of the game, but due to deforestation may become a rare kind of wood. Additionally some trees and plants may be replanted in other areas of the world and may bring new life to that area. The type of trees and plants may also define the wild-life in that area, if the animal/monster is dependent on it's resources. Rivers may dry up or could be dammed by players, or even used to fish, or travel. Maybe you don't have the money to buy a boat but you have time and resources to build one. I think you should be able to. Mountains would lose their resources and only new resources could be found or would develop over time. Resources are not infinite in this world, they are created and happen like they do in the real world but maybe a little faster.

3.) DYNAMIC ITEM CRAFTING: Similar to how real life is, a crafting system should be put into place that is dynamic allowing a vast amount of item possibilities, much more than is available in today's MMORPG. Advancements in a skill would require your knowledge of the technology required to make the object. There should be a way to allow me to craft what ever I want with a combination of the resources I have collected. If I have an axe maybe I want to separate it's components so I can attach a different axe head or maybe attach a different bladed weapon to the wooden head. No more cookie cutter items. Not all items should be equal. A weapon that I create may have entirely different item properties based on my skill and which resources I used to make it, then a person selling a similar item.

4.) LOOT: If I kill a monster I want everything it has! I hate killing some monster that is wearing an awesome set of armor and only being able to take 500 gold from it and some crappy items. I think the next evolution of loot should encompass everything the monster or creature has. If it's a rabbit, I want a rabbit foot, fur, and meat. If it's an orc, I want it's armor, weapons and clothing, plus the bag of gems it was carrying.

5.) DYNAMIC COMBAT: Why not combine traditional RPG game play with some more dynamic combat system? Why should all attacks be either normal or critical? This isn't D&D... Combat should calculate all things not just min-max damage, speed, etc. How about where you actually hit your opponent? Wear they protected in that area? What material is being used to attack? What part of the weapon your attack hit with? Did your weapon break? Maybe actually being able to control where you hit your opponent. If they are running away maybe you can put a well placed shot on their leg to slow them down til you can catch up. Being a big FPS-player, I'd like to see a MMORPG that might rely more on a players accuracy of a skill than having the luck of the dice come in to play. Maybe the combat range should be increased as well. Maybe my character isn't good at close combat and would opt for some long range cover and attack i.e. sniper, or maybe my character would like to shape the environment around him to create cover for an surprise attack.

6.) RISK VS. REWARD: I think that all MMO games should make things more challenging when you die in the game. In WoW you just resurrect and take sometimes a long route back to your body and your good to go again. What did the player learn? And what did the other player truly accomplish by defeating that player? Neither has gained anything from their duel. Maybe some bragging rights and PVP XP, but is that all gaming people really want? I think when you die everything you have should be available to the player that killed you to take. If not maybe someone coming by would see it as an opportunity to steal your stuff and make some money. I can't say that I enjoy losing all my stuff when I die but it certainly kept me on the edge of my seat wondering what would happen next. Nowadays I just press a button, find my body, and I'm back in the game again. If players knew they could lose their stuff, maybe their wouldn't be decked out lvl 70 players running around. If they actually were challenged by losing their stuff occasionally it might make for a better trade economy and the auction houses might have more stuff in them. There are some players that want to experience the game where there is no PVP and people can't loot them, make a version of the game for these people, isn't that why Trammel was created? The good thing about that was that you could travel between the worlds and you could exist on the same "realm/shard/server" with your other characters. Now I have to make a PVP only character or a Non-PVP character and they can't even interact with each other.

The author of the article admits that UO started the genre. And WoW now leads it, despite being a completely different game. Does that make any sense?

You have to look at the game that best carries the torch of UO. That game is Shadowbane, and has been for a long time. The problem with Shadowbane is that it is buggy and lacks development resources, and is now 4 years old. But despite all that it is STILL the best comparison to UO. A modern, highly resourced version of Shadowbane is what the genre needs right now. Yet the author of the article fails to even mention the word Shadowbane. Why? Because of its technical issues? It's either that or it's because the game is flawed. Yet Shadowbane has minimal leveling, an advanced character creation system, and a total open book endgame. It's a sandbox game. Players make their own conflicts, instead of killing countless lonely hours on leveling and dumbed down quests.

The problem with the genre is very simple: it's all about money now. Games are designed to make money, to the point where they are not enjoyable at all. WoW is a joke. There's no skill in the game. It's just a timesink. The pvp is completely dumbed down, it does not take after Warcraft 3 in any way shape or form. I think WC3 is more of an MMO than WoW, not to mention a whole lot more fun. But WoW? That game is designed to make money. And people these days are so used to it that they dont even realized they're being hoodwinked. Every aspect of the game is an attack on social interaction. You cant communicate with those on the opposing faction. You cant form large groups to xp with, unless you want to get hit with a massive xp penalty. There is no endgame, aside from the eternal grind. There is no asset destruction, hence no personal stake. It's a joke, but people buy into it. Why? Because we're stupid, obviously, and we get what we deserve. It's an irrational addiction. All my friends who played WoW admit that it was an addiction. The author of the article does not do the genre any favors by failing to mention any of this. It will not change until enough players know the true nature of the problem.

I don't want to play a game to be a cash cow for someone.
I want to be able to group with 10 other players without a significant xp penalty.
I want to spend more time fighting in wars, and less time fighting in instances, tyvm. (Instances are the antithesis of the mmo concept btw.)
I want to be able to spend more time planning large battles, and less time running/hopping around in circles trying to get behind each other like a bunch of fa****. Did I mention WoW pvp sucks?
And for god sakes I don't want to be insulted by the sheer stupidity and repetitiveness of the quests. Why does a game need quests anyway? Join a guild. Make enemies with another guild. Go kill them. There's your quest. lol.

I'd like to throw in an idea for choosing who you play with.

An MMO could have some official large servers that could host thousands of people at a time where you would play the game like you would a standard MMO, but it would also allow users to host these kinds of servers, with as little or as many players as they choose/their connection can handle.

Characters would be allowed to connect to any server so you could choose to play public with the rest of the world on large official servers or play private with your guild only on a dedicated server.

This sounds a lot like an expanded version of D2's Open Battle.net for which the character is saved to your computer(because it's your single-player character). This kind of system allows people to modify/hack their character data files and play unfair online. As a solution, I suggest that no matter where you connect, your character is saved to and loaded from an official server who's only task is to keep character-data.

The dynamic world/player created content is a great idea but is unfortunately not practical to do.
The biggest reason why is because just about any successful game is going to have 50-60k players online at the same time and there is no practical way to host that on a single server. Even that is at the lower end of players to make a profit. EVE is doing well with 30-35k players (online at one time, I know they have closer to 100-150k total players) but they have to have an incredable powerful server and even then it gets bogged down a lot. When you consider a "successful" game now will probably be seeing 250K+ players (the 50-60k online at once) and most will hope to have 1million+ there is just no way to do that on one server.

Why does it have to be on one server though? Because the world is dynamic and changing, it has player driven and changed content. What players do and create is going to be different. So if you have 10 servers hosting these dynamic worlds then after 6 months to a year of player driven content changes then you don't really have 1 game and 10 servers, you end up with 10 different games with the same mechanics. Most content that the developers want to add has to make sense in all 10 different settings, which isn't likely to happen. So then they have to make several different versions of all content they want to add to make sure it fits with their diverging servers. Or do the same thing on all servers reguardless and ignore the dynamic world that was evolving before that point. The first option simply isn't econmically feasable for a company to do, the second defeats the whole purpose of the system in the first place.



In terms of procedurely generated content, it takes an incredible amout of time to program and has a much higher probablility of failure because it is less controlled. The computing power required is also greately increased. While games like WoW have a lot of processing power that could be used before they drastically hurt their market share by removing users from their player base, most MMOs have much higher requirements already and they can't increase all that much.
Here especially the hardware people are using is more on the high end and they have power to spare, but that really is the exception and not the rule.

Wow, its sounds like half of the suggestions are things that the folks at origin did or thought of doing years ago with ultima online. WOW is for newbs. There are no high stakes, extremely repetative gameplay, and boring point and clicking. UO had so much more flavor than WOW. Revolutionize MMO? Thats easy, scrap all the fools that are in management at the companies creating these games and let the actual creators have fun and create something they themselves would like to play rather than some bug infested piece of crap that they rushed to get out on time. Lately it seem that this has been a HUGE issue with almost all computer games. They are buggy, lack original storylines and gameplay, and generally aren't fun. I saw some worthwhile suggestions but any of those on here that have been UO gamers would know that many of these things have been done, tried, and generally failed. This genre has very little room for expansion because everyone is jumping on the band wagon. See the problem with MMO's is that everyone forgets that consumers who buy these games are living breathing human beings who don't have 100+ hours a week to put in on a game. Although some people actually manage to do this they aren't going to try the dozens of MMOs that keep popping up and failing. Warcraft did well in this respect since it didn't fail, however, I think that it will be almost inpossible to revolutionize this type of industry any time soon.

Well in the case of online games where combat is more first person shooter style and not just point and click i've played a few and they all have their own problems.

First i'll talk about savage since it was mentioned about before. This game involves 2 sides and 1 player on each side playing as commander in real time strategy mode and the rest of the players are in first/3rd person shooter mode.

positives:

-unlike your run of the mill mmorpgs where you get a gigantic overhead view and can see 360degrees around yourself for a distance of 1Kilometre, this employs the first person shooter experience where you are limited in what you can see in your immediate vicinity. This is favorable since the limited view adds immersiveness.

-combat is first person shooter style

negatives:
-combat is too much like fps style, the melee/sword combat is broken - melee is not as good as the combat in the jedi games.
-there is no gigantic persistant world, its counterstrike style arena.

Next up is rakion

positives:

-has the view limitation mentioned in savage

-combat is first person shooter/ jedi knight style (I think its melee combat is even better than the ones in the jedi games)

negatives:

-as listed for savage no gigantic persistant world, but its worse than savage since it is more arena like, Savage has a much bigger world compared to counterstrike, whereas rakion has a smaller world than counterstrike. Savage has a world where you don't notice the symmetry, Rakion on the otherhand you notice.

-the movepool for melee combat is somewhat limited in the fact that if you block an enemies attack you gain the upperhand and can immediately do dmg to them e.g. the block grip.

-due to the peer to peer nature of the game there are problems with lag and latency.

-there are 4 game types in this arena type game,

The first one is a free for all where everyone atks each other. This free for is inherently flawed. Unlike counterstrike where you respawn after everyone has died but akin to wolfenstein enemy territory you respawn immediately. The problem: to get the kill you just wait for the other players to do sufficient dmg to each other and then jump in and finish the player with low health off.

The golem war. In this match players from both sides fight to kill the non aligned golem in the middle before the person who lands the finishing blow to the golem gains the item which allows him to kill the enemies golem at the enemies spawn location. Problem 1: the person who lands the finishing blow gets the item. Problem 2: It is unrealistic and you gain more from playing this type of battle than the others e.g more xp, more gold e.t.c. By unrealistic i mean in almost no situation in a rpg world will this happen, where you have to kill something in the middle so you can kill the other sides golem. There are however situations where killing the other sides commander will lead to victory. This would be fine if there was no golem in the middle and your sides golem merits the title commander, sure the golems have significantly more health than the human players and can do more damage however the AI controlling the golem is essentially an idiot.
Yes i understand that this type of match may have been created intentionally as a capture the flag scenario and that both savage and rakion were never intended to be mmorpgs so most of the negatives I listed aren't really negatives

NOW FOR IDEAS:
-some of you are saying that twitch based combat requires too much bandwidth and will put too much pressure on the server to allow millions of players. Possible solution: every 100 square kilometers in the world is handled by a different server.
-someone said that in order for everyone to look different the software developers have to create hundreds of different faces themselves. Possible solution: it has already been implemented in a asian mmorpg, i have no idea how effectively since i haven't played the game. Everyone uploads their photo or uses their webcam and the game automatically creates a digitized version of the individuals face for use in the game world. Another possible solution: mmorpg's should adopt the face+body customization available in online worlds such as second life
-for the problem that some gamers don't like twitch combat and prefer the simple combat used in WOW, possible solution: As mentioned by a previous poster have an option for the computer to control combat.

what i consider most important: No more 360 degree views for a distance of 1km around the character, however this creates the problem that it will be considerably more expensive to create the world since more time is needed.

Games that may or may not be revolutionary since I haven't played them:

The chronicles of spellborn is currently in beta testing and from the description of the game its not your run of the mill mmorpg.

Darkfall is another game which doesn't seem run of the mill however its a long wait.

If you change the formula you don’t have an MMO, you have a whole different animal. You can’t re-make god of war by mixing it with Neverwinter and Diablo 2, slap a sticker on the box that says MMO and expect people to be pleased. However, I’m sure we can all agree that a “new animal” as stated above is something that we are all dreaming of, and would love to sink our teeth into.

WOW has made the "perfect" MMO as related to the other MMOs that came before it. It was built around the lore of previous Warcraft games. That along with the highly skilled and inventive people at Blizzard is what made it a success and has kept it a success.

I suppose now that WOW is the only model upon which MMOs can build upon; it is true that we will see nothing but WOW clones for time to come. That is because WOW has defined what an MMO is plain and simple. Back in the days of EQ and SWG we were having fun but never really knew what an MMO could be. WOW showed us.

You could definitely have a game where there is no leveling, no raiding, and where the monsters die immediately and where you are not thrown into a server with thousands of people, but it wouldn't be an MMO. It would be like Baulder's Gate, Diablo2, or God of War.

I think Travis Meacham is just someone who did not enjoy World of Warcraft. No there is nothing wrong with that and I'm not shouting "care bear" or "noob" at all. WOW and MMOs in general are not for everybody. The people that play WOW in my experience enjoy two things, raiding and community. It is true that you really don't need the leveling grind, nor do you need the pre-raid content to make WOW a fun game. The same may go for other big MMOs, but (for WOW anyway) that part of the game couldn't be sacrificed because the 1-60/70 grind is what allows the player to experience the "World" of Warcraft, the stories, the people, the characters from the book. It is part of what makes it so immersive. It doesn't matter if you are a raider, the game wouldn't fit as well if it was just Onyxia, Kharazan, Molten Core, and Black Temple.

That said, I have always said that the game doesn't start until level 70. People would ask "you want to make a 19 twink with me?" I would say... "I twink 60" (70 now). The game was all about Raiding. The majority of players have a 70 character now and a large portion of them raid. So says the blizzard's statistics. (no citation) Raiding is FUN (not for everybody). I was lucky enough to enjoy some of the raiding content in the game before I quit. I value those memories with friends and I value the story and the content that helped me complete my view of the Warcraft Universe as depicted by Chris Metzen.

In this way, WOW and MMO are synonymous. You most definitely could have a game that follows the ideas described in the article by Travis Meacham and it actually sounds like it could be a fun game. But it wouldn't be an MMO.

We gamers are always looking for a new fix, I understand. We want to see another Genre. It is also easy to say at a time like this when games are sparse and we are dusting off our old games hoping that they aren't mad at us for leaving them in the dark. (Starcraft is my poison of choice)

In the meantime WOW is what it is and imitators will swarm around like buzzards looking for carrion. The MMO genre will be defined by what people are willing to pay for, and right now that is WOW. We should not try to paint an ugly face on the current MMO lineup just because we didn't enjoy the games like everybody else did. Let them be. Let them play out. Let Blizzard continue to rake in the dough (so they can make Starcraft 2 better) and let the fight against MMOs die. Those of us not playing MMOs (myself included) will find our next feast soon enough.

The power is not in anybody's hands to define our gaming experience, it is in the community's hands and we shape it with our dollar, not with idealism. Such is life.

LOTRO has much more room for solo playin than WoW, there are much more quests and the "big story" line is nice add, from the traditional computer rpg's.
So I would say that LOTRO is like WoW but with stereoids, but it's depend on what do you like... There is much less grinding in LOTRO and it's fun to play even a low level character.

Anyone remember the game Knight of Legend by Origin. You can aim, high, middle, low; you can choose between various hits: fast strike, slow but powerfull speep, hack, trust etc.. ; you can choose between various defences; there were several hit points: head, torso, left arm, right arm etc...; there were echaust, the more you carry during fight the faster you exhaust, the more you are tired the less your skills become... It was awesome game for C64... There has not been that kind of tactical level since then...
So it has been done, and It could be done again. The problem was that it was not the fastest system around. It was really easy to kill himself (you lose arm, or bleed to dead, or collapse due exhaust), but it was really realistic in that sence.
Anyone could lisence RQ-rpg rules and it would make the same, but that would not be for newbies... So maybe it would not be a good busines, who knows. But I would definitely like it!

One thing that bothers me in MMOrpg's is that you don't die. You don't became part of you character. I would like to see game where you can die, but you can start with new character that has somewhat lower skills than with your previous, but not too much. So when Gurgan dies, it's dead but you next character could be real hero, if you don't want to start from the very start.

Its really great to read all this stuff!

I kind of think MMO cannot be said any better or any bad than another. Nobody is the same, that being said it also means there will always be "something wrong" or "something to change".

As for my part I'm tired I'm tired of the click'n'attack type of game. I just got myself in the beta of Tabula Rasa and it holding something different.

So, if we wonder if something has to be changed there is no wrong answer. And keep on posting!

Cheers !

I haven't played any mmorpg's except for GW, but I can tell you what I would like.

I'd like the game to have an overall plot, and when the problem is solved, the game changes to include a new overall plot.

I'd like to start out as Joe Schmo, who gets approached by an NPC to start the story, and then be able to explore and make my own way as a thief, a cop, a do-gooder, a merchant, a politician, a bad guy (who can can become a boss) - whatever I choose. Like real life, there are others who can train you in your profession and what you use, you become better at as opposed to leveling.

In this manner, NPC's are replaced by the players. The players determine the outcome of "the world." You can become a bartender and spread gossip, you can work at a newspaper and interview players for stories, then print the stories and send them out to "the world." If you want to go around killing other players, there will be other players who are cops who will come looking for you. If you're high enough in your bad-ass skills, you might be able to defeat the cops but more will come looking. There could be judges who determine the penalties. There could be elected politicians where the players, based on the platforms the politicians are running on, can decide - based on a majority vote, who gets the position.

If players want to form a gang and run around as their own possey, great. They can do good in "the world" or, they can go against the laws of "the world" and wreak havok at their own peril. The only NPC's necessary would be the ones that advance the story until its completion.

I'd also like it if the players' characters would die. You have to go back in the game and start a new one. This makes decision making much more epic. Don't like a player who acts like a buffoon while playing? Make a request to the cops who will make a determination on how to handle the player based on the laws of "the world." Or, you can have rogue cops who take money and riches as opposed to arresting or killing and individual.

Your riches and possessions would be determined how they are in the real world. You have an occupation, you can adventure and work for others (NPC's would have to be in the mix for this), you can rob, cheat - however you want to make your way. If you want to have a home, you'll start out with some money in the game to rent somewhere or purchase a cheap home. From there, you can decide to sell it, trade up or live in the wilderness if you like.

This would be a much more interesting and dynamic setting for an mmorpg than the current ones. Make it like real life, but choose an interesting world in which you make your own decisions that have real affects on the virtual world. No grinding, no leveling, no dungeons. It could be set in a post-apocalyptic world where the earth is just starting to recover again. Romances between players could start, they could get married, get joint accounts, get divorced - all kinds of crazy stuff. How fun would it be to be a judge or a politician in a virtual world? Awesome!

A truly enjoyable MMORPG for me is one that would allow me to be fully immersed in its fantasy setting and let me role play anything I want without boundaries. Changing skies to reflect the passage of time is a good start in Oblivion, but that has been around since the eighties (e.g., Drakkhen). We can do much more than simulated weather and scripted events -- here are just some ideas that I would love to see well executed in a game:
[*:a26e1c955a]Objects. Players should be able to interact with everything in the game, and I do mean _everything_. Every object in the world should be destructible, edible, climbable, holdable, meltable, throwable, etc. if appropriate, and they should interact with other objects, characters, and nature in a realistic way that conform to the laws of physics (or some other physics that is at play in the fantasy setting). Weapons should of course become dull over time if used in actual combat. I expect to be able to dig a hole in the ground to bury my pet or relieve myself--err, or rather my character.

[*:a26e1c955a]Persistence. If an object is damaged, it stays damaged, and in fact should react with its surroundings and change over time (e.g., poor quality metal should rust after a rain, corpses should start to decompose and smell after a couple days if not buried). If I cut down a tree, I expect the trunk to be there in a year, maybe with new shrubs around it. If I engrave something in the tree bark, it should remain there for others to see. If there is a pool of water on the ground, it should persist until it dries up or turns into mud. You get the idea.

[*:a26e1c955a]Physiology. This should be given more importance in MMORGs -- after all, they're supposed to be virtual worlds. Characters should go through regular sleeping cycles such that they would start to lose their reaction times if they go 24 hours without sleep. This may be a controversial proposal (and financial suicide), but I think that the number of hours spent sleeping should be based on real time; in other words, the sleep command should be thrown out and players should be required to stop playing (and go to sleep themselves!) when they put their characters to sleep. If the player logs back in only three hours after their characters went to sleep, then their characters should feel the effects of drowsiness accordingly; on the flip side, if the player logs back in six months later, then the game should freeze the world after the eighth hour in game time so that the players can pick up where they left off, with their characters refreshed after a full sleep. Characters should also feel the effects of hunger (decreased strength) as well as over-eating (decreased speed and increased fat in the 3D model). Characters should also get chills and fevers if overexposed in cold climate, vomit if poisoned (or drunk), and their wounds should heal in a natural progression (blood -> scab -> scar). Last but nowhere near least, characters should be required to attend to their bodily functions and relieve themselves.

[*:a26e1c955a]Customizability. To help players become more attached to their characters, there should be almost limitless flexibility on how their characters should look and dress. Everything from custom clothing (painted on à la Forza 2?) to custom tattoos and micro objects that make up the jewelries should be a given. I don't know how the company will enforce clothes that adhere to the game's era and settings, but somebody will think of something. Furthermore, every character should be allowed to have their own wardrobe so that they could theoretically look different every day of the year (if they can afford to have that many clothes!). Characters should also be allowed to make their own clothes in-game (e.g., killing a dragon to make scale armor).Some newer MMORPGs may already have one or more of the ideas above, but I doubt if there is an online game that has all of the things that I want elegantly wrapped into an engaging, virtual world. MMORPGs are getting bigger and more immersive all the time, so I think it's just a matter of time when they will converge with true virtual reality.

-10basetom

in response to you i think they are all great idea spare the physiology, this removes the mmo and turn it into a single player game, if you were to incorporate this i think it'd be a very enjoyable single player game at that. but as a mmo i think it would be terrible, emphasis on i think. the whole thought of a forced style of gameplay is terrible, i play games in my spare time(which happens to be quite a bit) but i do not want to have to schedual it to this or that...i would hate it...main thing with sleeping is are you still in the world while your sleeping. can people kill you? are you then forced to be left defeseless for 8 hours. or are you removed, then couldnt you take advantage of it with superior easy. i think it wouldnt work. the best though i have is a 10 min left defenseless before removal.
but then again if the world were to be scaled down etc. i think it would work(only playing if a bunch of people you know so you can set your own in game unofficial rules)

Ok one game that i have found meets most of the "revolutionary" games is made by the Sonic Team from Sega. This games name is Phantasy Star Universe. PSU still has a lvling system but it is very well incorporated. Online content is being developed and added all the time the story line is original and is ever continuing. It is on PS2 as well as PC and Xbox 360. The PS2 and PC servers are connected but the Xbox's is not because Microsoft would not agree to it. All in all PSU is something you may want to check out maybe on PS2 because it does require decent hardware when played on a PC.

I've only read through the first couple pages of replies so this MAY have been said. But about 75% of what you're asking for is already out there. Not in the heavy hitters (2mil+ subscribers) but I've been playing Eve-online for a little over a year. There is no grinding. There are no set classes. There are tiered levels of loot. The dungeons are varied in size and difficulty but clearly marked (in many cases) as to how hard they are...

Basically- Eve is a major step towards the next-gen MMORPG. it's not "IT" but it's darn close.

and well- For me, it is "it."

I know i'm a little late to the posts here (I always read twitchguru's headlines at work, but the commies at my job block out any website that is even remotely related to gaming). But really reading through the article it just kind of seems to me like what you're looking for is a single player game. Lots of people say that "long, in depth quest lines" would make games better. I say to hell with that. How is it any different then sitting in the same spot pulling a load of mobs from the same area for 3 hours any different then running to the quest guy, him going "you have to get 12 tusks from this boar for me, then i'll let you know what the next step is!" And then you have to proceed to slaughter about 50 boars because guess what, apparently every boar that has tusks doesnt drop them, go figure. All questing is a thinly veiled cover up excuse to get people to go slaughter mobs. If you actually sit and do the math, 8 times out of 10 its quicker and easier to avoid the travel time and just kill the mobs.

NOW, if, (and i've heard LOTRO is good about this) the quests are actually you know, moderately interesting to read and participate in (think Baldur's Gate, etc). I could see quests revitalizing the genre.

I agree that loot has to stay. Really its the ultimate aspect of the fantasy genre. Even in books, people are doing crazy stuff, fighting god like monsters, and inadvertantly they find that magic sphere, of Sword of the Valheru +3, etc.

One thing i'm getting OH so sick of is everyone spouting about how perfect WOW is. I think every one of us can attest to a time or fifty in our lives when something was absurdly popular that ultimately proved to be shit. WOW is one of those things. I played the shit out of the game, dont get me wrong. But in a matter of a total of 6 months of play time (and i dont mean 6 months of in game hours, i mean 6 months of me going to work etc) I was able to exhaust literally all the raid content of the original world, all of the group and solo content of the expansion, and part of the raid content. Its just too damn easy.

I think one of the core aspects of any RPG, MMO or otherwise, is "powering up" your character. I personally dont see anything wrong with levels. Honestly i really liked the way that EQ1 did it. Where eventually they added in points you could add to certain skills that took XP to earn. it was a nice way of differentiating your char from all the other level 65 paladins/rogues/etc in the game, it also gave you a sense of usefullness out of participating in a raid, or a group, when you happened to get bad luck on the rolls for the items, or nothing of use dropped. I can't tell you how many times i've wanted to vomit because i had just spent the duration of the last 3 weeks worth of saturdays in Molten Core, sitting at the top of the Warlock list, just waiting for anything resembling warlock loot to drop. I literally would spend 3-4 hours of my life for literally nothing. As a matter of fact i usually went negative b/c i went through X amt of potions etc.

Honestly (and this will never happen, because like everything, money rules) i just wish that developers would start developing games that cater to a specific crowd, rather than trying to make the "catch-all, lowest common denominator" MMO like WOW. Of course they all want that because they see $$$. Which is fine, i'm not chiding the capitalistic economy or ideals, but its a death knell when it comes to games.

Vanguard is an excellent example of this. Even despite all its current flaws, and there are many, i still log in every day and play it. Its because it pretty much encompasses the things i like in an MMO. Longer level times, difficulty in crafting, non cartoony art style, etc. Unfortunately it was a game that could have been huge, but because of $$$ it got pushed into an early release, when in all honesty the game still needed a good 4 to 6 months of beta work.

Regardless i've lost track here. I'm really not sure whats going to revitalize the genre. I certainly dont think mixing fantasy and sci fi will work.

I think really these games need to stop making concessions and just do their own thing. I'm almost hoping that Conan will do that. It looks like the devs of that game are sticking to their guns. I guess we'll see eh.