BioShock Soaked in DRM Fiasco - Page 2

For me DRM means "Don't Run Me"....
So, I will pass on buying this, btw fabulous, game....now that is sad..
For me and for 2K.
When will publishers learn that DRM or trusted computing or whatever you want to call it, will hurt your business.
A business model without DRM will rake up much more revenue.

First let me say I am a 60+ yr old gamer. Been around since pong was state of the art. This BS (BioShock) DRM is one of the worst marketing fiasco's since the other Sony root kit for your music CD's thing. Just read more in other forums on this sight. Seems AVG free version calls out the BS.exe as a Trojan and quarantines it. If your running Vista, the OS will not let you run it under any circumstances admin or not. Good luck to all. Oh yeah also seems some very good cracked versions are showing up on Usenet, with no INTERNET play and no SecuRom troubles. I do not support piracy and mention this as an example of why DRM is useless. Much like a lock on a glass door, keeps the neighbors out but is not much protection against a thief.

I'm pretty sure the company that is distributing Crysis is studying this situation VERY carefully.

I think it will be interesting to see how they handle the release.

This isn't even remotely feasible. Even if it were, it’d be far more economical for publishers to focus on the data and the pipe, and relying upon customers to provide the horsepower. Then publishers wouldn’t need mainframe class systems to render your content – cheaper for them, and hardware vendors can still make a buck.

As for the rest of what you say… The software rental model is the Holy Grail for publishers. No piracy is certainly a significant plus, but what they’re really after is a constant reliable revenue stream.

It’s still a ways off, but the big players certainly have this on their minds.

To bad for these guys that myself and many others have already switched to Linux completely. At least a few of the upcoming games recognize this. Us lowly Linux gamers can rebuild/reinstall as many times as we want without ever asking anybody's permission(activate). It takes a while, but all games seem to run on Linux eventually, usually at a greatly reduced cost.

I just finished reviewing all the posts in this forum and wanted to outline two main points:

1) I have had zero issues with activating and playing Bioshock. Not sure what all the fuss was regarding the DRM fiasco. My copy immediately activated on both the installs I conducted. I installed the same copy on two separate operating systems. I have a dual-boot system set-up; Windows XP Pro and Windows Vista Home Premium. There was a minor issue when attempting to activate it the first time on my WinXP install. All I did was select "Back" and then forward a couple times and the install activated. Weird, I know. But in the end I was able to install and activate the game with no problems noted by most of the other folks that I have read about in various forums.

2) Regardless of my personal experience with Bioshock, I still find it funny and frustrating at the same time that DRM continues to piss everybody off...lol. Yes, the whole DRM idea is flawed and doomed to failure each and every time it is "pushed" by a game developer. The only folks who suffer whenever DRM is invoked is the honest consumer. Dishonest hackers (or just plain disgruntled normal programmers) will always find a way to crack any encryption and/or virtual drive protection scheme out there.

In the end, DRM is something that is unfortunately not going to go away anytime soon. We will be doomed to experience the continuous "circle of death" of DRM --> Customer pissed off --> Hacker creates workaround -->new DRM developed and released --> Customer pissed off again --> Hacker creates another workaround --> etc.

I wonder if anyone here works for 2K or sony

Nope! your not the only one getting that vibe. That vibe you get when you ..umm ..ahhem... are bent over and can feel someone is standing behind you will ill intentions.

as a Bioshok player...

I dont like DRM. But i understand the need to protect the software. DRM isn't the way to go in my opinion due to what we're seeing today.

However, Online registration (or telephone) isn't that bad. What is bad is forced restrictions on the installations. If i buy the game, i should be allowed to install it as many times as i want. I then should be able to give it to my friend when i'm done. Or uninstall and play on another computer.

2k goofed on that one.

I actually love the valve way. As long as you have steam installed you can install the game on a million computers. However you can only play it on one computer at a time.

I think it's safe to say that piracy of Hl2 and CS;S are pretty low in comparison

@ rfunes

When I was reading your post again this morning I remembered this – a very interesting read.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut [...] _cost.html

So no, you’re not wrong.



@ Ninjawithagun

The issues are not only technical in nature (for some) but ethical as well.

1) No up-front indications that the number of installs is limited.

2) Botched install management. Allowed install count was increased – a band-aid fix that doesn’t address point Band-aid or not, some (many) honest early-adopters got screwed.

3) No mention that 3rd party DRM software is installed with the product, either in the box or the License Agreement.

4) The product uninstall process, arguably by design, does not uninstall the DRM. If the product is gone, why does the DRM need to be there? I have to wonder – is there a reason why someone wants this on my system, other than to protect the product? Does it do something else aside from protecting the product?

5) The DRM employs rootkit-like techniques hide itself. Is intent to protect the product(s) it manages, or to protect the DRM software itself (from being detected or uninstalled)?

6) From what others have written, the DRM seems to take issue with certain applications installed on customer’s systems.

7) On a personal note, while I understand that Piracy is a problem, I pay for my software, and I HIGHLY resent being subject to such paranoid, aggressive, underhanded DRM. Apparently, as far as the publisher is concerned there are no honest customers… we’re all pirates.

Once a version of the product without this kind of malware becomes available I’ll be first in line to pick one up. Until then, no sale.

Go back and READ the end of your own post, because it’s spot on. It’s the CUSTOMER that gets pissed off. Not the HACKER. The HACKER takes it all as a challenge. It’s the CUSTOMER, the one who plays by the rules, who gets the bad experience, not the one who doesn’t care, the HACKER. If anything DRM may even be self perpetuating when it frustrates CUSTOMERS to the point that they become HACKERS.

@Spongebob

Quite right. I was about to go and buy the game on the strength of the reviews, when I came across reports of the dodgy DRM. like you say, NO SALE.

If they release a patch removing the DRM, I'll buy the game, otherwise I'll just have to live without it.

It'll also make me think twice about ever purchasing a Sony product again.

@ Spongebob

I completely agree with you, there are several issues involved regarding the implementatin and use of DRM and that it is not just a technical issue when activating the game. The rootkit-like issue and the fact that nothing regarding the implementation of DRM is referenced within the Bioshock EULA. Oh how painful this mess really is.... Law suites are definitely coming. Sony has already been sued more than once for DRM vs EULA conflicts.

Turning off the ugly brick road to mention some other interesting news; supposedly a 2K rep has been quoted in several forums stating 2K is currently in the process of creating a Bioshock patch that will "address" the DRM issues, fix the widescreen FOV problem, and increase the total number of activations from two to five. Yeah, we'll see just how much of that news is jello... See it wiggle, watch it jiggle

The activation limit has already been changed; that's been confirmed.

Secondly, they have announced that they are removing the SecuROM protection at a later date.

Third, I'd be hesitant to brand anybody trying to say anything in defense of the system as somehow being employed by 2K or Sony. I've gotten that on a few forums now, and it doesn't change the fact that I'm not (to the contrary, I wish I were... maybe then I wouldn't have $40,000 in student loan debt and could afford more games).

Fourth, I think the reason most publishers "treat their customers like criminals" is because of the outcry from situations like this, where people threaten not to buy the games or pirate them on principle (not exactly proving to the publisher that they AREN'T criminals). I used to be one in this camp, and have realized it's not serving the right end.

Until Linux is more heavily marketed and made more user-friendly to Joe Sixpack consumer and Joseph Bigbuck businessman (Ubuntu is getting there on the user-friendliness), people won't switch rapidly enough to affect the pocketbooks of Microsoft at a rate Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer would be concerned with.

Remove the "computer geek" image from Linux and get the community to agree with one distro and then we'll talk.

As history has shown us, CONTROL was also the backbone of Communism. Yet it was that same attempt at totalitarian control that led to it's failure and collapse.

Looking at that link, if this is seriously the vision of Bill Gates and Microsoft, then I can only think that he is sending the PC as we know it today into a permanent technology graveyard. DRM is only the beginning of Microsoft's "plan" - pissing off the honest consumer. In a free and democratic society where the intelligent consumer enjoys rights and privileges, there is no way in hell Bill Gates should decide; 1.) what we can do 2.) with what we have legally paid for, 3.) legally own and 4.) use in our own homes. That kind of monopolistic, totalitarian, unrestricted control is only asking for trouble. Bill Gates may be an incredibly wealthy man right now, calling the shots and in control of a software empire, but the human race and society would have to be totally brainwashed to succumb to his fantasies and rescind such core principles as free-decision, autonomy, and financial security. Think about it for a minute - can you imagine for real a life where MS is dipping its hands into our wallets totally legally whenever they want for as much as they like, telling us what we can and cannot do with what we own, monitoring what we do, controlling our time, forcing things on us as they want, giving us "permissions" as if we are a subordinate class, dictating the events in our lives, and telling us it is all for "our own good", for our "safety" and in our "best interests" ???

It may be exaggerating the point there, but don't be surprised if one day in the distant future Bill Gates is the homeless bum hiding in the cardboard box under that freeway overpass, his misguided, distorted visions having ultimately sealed his ill fate, and his Microsoft empire gone into dust as a mere memory - the victim of an extended, difficult, global do-or-die struggle by an oppressed society to regain it's freedom and escape the clutches of a ruthless, powerful, money-hungry, obsessed megalomaniac bent on controlling humanity through "his" technology.

After a few days to sort of simmer down and think about things rationally I still don't believe the activation limit is proper.

I have games that I have installed well over 10 times over the years without a hint of piracy involved. I've probably installed Alpha Centauri over 20 times. I should not have to jump through hoops to re-install games I've purchased.

I often take a game I'm playing on my home PC to my parent's house when I visit them. All of my boyhood friends are long gone from that place and I just don't feel like going out to bars by myself. My parents don't even have cable.

So I have to have something to do after they go to bed, and I'll play a game I bought legally to try out different characters or play styles. Because my dad is obsessive about his PC I always uninstall the game when I leave; usually I'll just leave the save games tucked away somewhere he can't find them. I've been doing this for many years.

So now, according to 2K, I no longer have the right to freely do this. I have to be their lapdog.

It IS a big deal. It's ALWAYS a big deal. I simply cannot understand people who say it isn't.

agreed. ANY limit on re-installs is wrong. I too have reinstalled many games more than 5 times, some (like UT'99) MUCH more than that.

I personally have quite a few games that I purchased and then immediately found a no-cd crack. (virtual drive or hacked exe) Is this to pirate it or run multiple copies? not at all. It is simply to be able to hit the go button on any game installed and not worry about if I have the cd in the drive. I bought the game, I want to play it how/when I want... I like the convenience of having games installed so I can play as the mood strikes me.

...to those that are saying to go console to remove this problem... that is not a solution. You want to talk about controlled, closed systems? Even this retarded DRM is freedom compared to what you can (can't) do with console games.

While most people that buy a game, install and use it on only one computer. *The Big Deal* is ~~~ Say your hard drive crashes, you just lost an install of BioShock. Say 3 months later, you buy a new computer; you just got hit again.. The *Big Deal* is, 2K Games is pushing software with install limits so 6 months/1 year/2 year/whatever you may not be able install the game to replay it.

I can read your mind already -- Who is going to want to replay BioShock in a year or two? That's not the point. The point is, having install limits on software that you legally own and have paid good money for. That means that you can't give it away after your done, you can't sell it on eBay in ernest (but I bet that won't stop some people), you can't do anything with it except file it in the trash can and let your local landfill take care of it ~~ money down the drain...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't forget that installing this software will also install malware on your computer!!!

Ta-da! And another honest user is turned into a pirate by their pointless DRM. The system works! [/sarcasm]

Sony really are retarded. You'd think they'd have elarnt from their last fiasco.

Unfortunately running BioShock via Steam is not doing it the ValvE way. As you are informed when purchasing the game via Steam, the 5 installs policy still applies. In itself 5 seems ok, but it means you still get the SecuROM software on your system as an added bonus which offends a lot of people (including me). I do not mind having it installed on my system by itself, it is the fact that you will not get rid of it if you are doing an uninstall of the game(s) that rely on it which really pisses me off.

I joined this forum so I could join in this discussion... so here goes...

I'm going out to buy this game today... DRM and all. Because I don't care. And apart from a vocal few, lots of people are going to buy this game and not have any problems. And the developers and puplishers are going to make money and in the end there's not going to be many people who remember this.

For those that will want to play it in 10 years and are worried that the activation servers will be gone(and the point has been made over and over) they already said that the game wont need it in the future. In fact this was pointed out by another poster earlier on and obviously ignored...

Also another point was made about how many law suits were coming and this was going to change everything... Unfortunately this isn't the case as Sony has been sued before and it will be sued again.

Bill Gates really isn't any of the above.... and he doesn't really have much of a say in the day to day running of MS anymore either, and can drop his shares very very quickly, So if MS was to cumble he'd still have all of his money...

Nice forum by the way...

Because DRM will never get that bad. Ever. And I don't think anyone here believes that. All it does is prevents you from copying or cracking or whatever. And that really isn't a bad thing.

I absolutely totally agree that it should be gone after an uninstall but in reality every software leaves bits of itself behind. The uninstaller development is always left till last and is always the worst part of an app.

Now if its left behind on purpose what is it doing? How does it send out information? Does it send out information? But A good firewall will take care of that. Agreed we shouldn't have to be dealing with it but its not the end of the world.

Let's not get carried away by the argument of computer game longevity, ok?

Do you still have a functioning (emulation)platform on which you're still playing the original Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards (the original was released in 1987)?

A life time of 20 years is way past the economical lifetime. I think 10 years will be enough of a challenge, that would be around the time of something like Hexen.

Preventing you from using certain programs, installed with out your consent and no uninstall. That is call malware. But I guess it is ok when you have pay for it.

Greetings!

I am glad for you. However, I do care!

Might be a worthy thread to follow:
Need to re-install. Where is the "Revoke Application"?