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Best Gaming CPUs For The Money: November '09
Welcome to another edition of our Best Gaming CPUs for the Money. This month we have a handful of AMD-based processor introductions to factor into our recommendations. Moreover, Intel's Core i5-750 finds itself back on the list for new system builders. Read More
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Tuning Cool'n'Quiet: Maximize Power And Performance, Part 2
In Part 1, we showed you how to optimize the settings of your Cool'n'Quiet-equipped processor and what sort of power benefits you could expect as a result. Now it's time to run the benchmarks and see how our optimized settings actually perform. Read More
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Tuning Cool'n'Quiet: Maximize Power And Performance, Part 1
Think your Athlon or Phenom processor is already tuned to deliver the best balance between performance and power consumption? Think again. We show you how to tweak Cool'n'Quiet for even more aggressive speed at maximum efficiency using several AMD CPUs. Read More
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PS3 Slim Has Updated 45-nm Cell/B.E. Chip
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It's smaller than ever!
When the PS3 Slim debuted earlier this week, the immediate takeaway from the reveal was that the redesigned console was 33 percent smaller, 36 percent lighter and consumes 34 percent less power.
Buyers will also be paying less and getting more, with the $100 drop to $299 and the hard drive getting bumped from 80 GB to 120 GB.
Inside, however, there was also another shrink job at play. According to the IDG News Service, the new PS3 Slim utilizes a Cell Broadband Engine CPU manufactured using a 45-nm process.
The outgoing, larger models of PlayStation 3 use a 65-nm Cell/B.E., and the original launch units (which had the PS2 backwards compatibility) run the hottest with the 90-nm chips.
While IBM confirmed that the Cell chip had indeed undergone a process shrink, Nvidia hasn't spoke out on whether or not the RSX graphics chip in the PS3 is now made using a more advanced process.
Either way, the 45-nm Cell processor helps to explain a decent amount of the power savings.
More on the new PS3 Slim:
- PS3 New and Old, Fat and Slim Compared
- PICTURED: Official Shots of PS3 Slim
- Sony Makes the PlayStation 3 Slim Official, $299
Source : Tom's Guide US
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Could 10 - 20% yields for Cell processors lead to problems for Sony...
Essex Junction (VT) - A statement from a senior IBM engineer buried deep within a Q&A with veteran journalist Ed Sperling, published last week by Electronic News, casts a sharp ray of light on an otherwise undiscussed topic: defects in the course of processor production. Defects, IBM vice president of semiconductor and technology services Tom Reeves admitted, crop up in about one in ten processors - specifically, digital ASICs - that are fabricated, and weeding those defects out is part of the everyday work of producing chips. But with today's multicore chips, that defect number is compounded as core counts grow. As a result, Reeves told Sperling, as few as one Cell processor for every ten fabricated may be defect-free upon inspection. With standard silicon germanium (SiGe) single-core processors, IBM can achieve yields of up to 95%, Reeves told Electronic News. But "with a chip like the Cell processor," he then remarked, "you're lucky to get 10 or 20 percent." But Reeves went further, making a comment that is raising the eyebrows of many game console enthusiasts who had thought the sole purpose of multiple cores in the Cell processor for Sony's upcoming PlayStation 3 was to improve performance: He implied that because the Cell uses as many as eight identical synergistic processing elements (SPEs), but Sony only requires the use of seven, some production units could, in fact, get away with one core in eight being defective without any impact on the customer. It gets better. Reeves stated outright that we're entering an era of redundant logic, which enables manufacturers to produce processing components that compensate for their own defects. With such systems in place, he said, yields could conceivably increase in a best-case scenario to 40% - still significantly lower than the 95% yields that IBM and others enjoyed during the single-core, "one-by-one" era. The picture that emerged from the Electronic News interview is one not of multiple, powerful processor units pounding out code in parallel, but instead a kind of "RAID array" for the CPU, where unit failure could be considered part of everyday life. Is this guy serious? We asked Insight64 principal analyst Nathan Brookwood. "He is serious," he told TG Daily. "Yields always go down as chip size increases, so designers of large chips often use redundancy to increase yields. Memory chips have done this for years, as have the cache blocks on CPUs, but it's harder to design redundancy into logic circuits - unless you replicate the entire logic block, which is what Cell does. Sony needs to balance performance, cost, and availability, so it makes sense that they would sacrifice a core or two in order to get lower cost or more useful chips." By far the biggest single application for the Cell processor, in terms of acquiring installed base, will be its introduction in Sony's PS3 this November. In its quarterly report last April, Sony told investors it intends to sell 6 million PS3s between November 2006 and March 2007. If this is indeed the case, borrowing Reeves' numbers, the IBM/Sony/Toshiba joint effort (STI) will need to fabricate at least 15 million Cell processors, and toss out 60% or more of those units after fabrication. But even then, it would appear to be a safe bet, based on Reeves' logic, that about half the number of processors that complete the full production cycle will have one SPE unit that's defective. Since PS3 will only use seven of the eight SPEs anyway, the user should not know the difference. IBM's engineering division for Cell was contacted by TG Daily for comment yesterday, and has yet to return our inquiries.
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Why Ageia matters
In order run physics effects on your PC today, you typically have to use the CPU, regardless of the platform you rely on. IBM's Xenon & Broadway, Sony Cell, Intel Core or AMD Phenom - all of these CPUs, however, have not yet shown that they can be capable physics drivers, so, in our opinion, specialized physics accelerators will be the solution for the future. Even at Intel there is Larrabee, which is designed to become an all-purpose accelerator chip that is used for graphics as well as ray-tracing and physics, according to sources close to company. The second part of the equation is the development of next-generation game engines, which are going to drive implementation of real-world physics with next-generation consoles and PCs. Let's look the public statements made in regards to the Nvidia-Ageia deal: Nvidia released a following statement from Jen-Hsun Huang, co-founder and CEO: "The AGEIA team is world class, and is passionate about the same thing we are - creating the most amazing and captivating game experiences. By combining the teams that created the world's most pervasive GPU and physics engine brands, we can now bring GeForce-accelerated PhysX to hundreds of millions of gamers around the world." Manju Hegde, co-founder and CEO of Ageia, released the following statement: "Nvidia is the perfect fit for us. They have the world's best parallel computing technology and are the thought leaders in GPUs and gaming." True or not, the two statements refer to the present situation. But this deal was all about the future and controlling (or at least balancing) the world of physics computing, which set to march beyond the domain of games. Based on these statements, you might think that all currently-shipped GeForce products support PhysX, while the truth is that PhysX will be implemented in future chips, destined to be shipped in the hundreds of millions. Suddenly there is a pretty good reason for developers and publishers to jump on PhysX immediately. Following the acquisition yesterday, we had the chance to talk to Tim Sweeney, founder of Epic Games and the brain behind the Unreal engine. Sweeney said that "we've had a great relationship with the Ageia team for years, and bundle their PhysX library with Unreal Engine 3 as its standard physics solution." He added that he was "happy to see Nvidia jump in and throw its massive weight behind physics." Sweeney mentioned that he is planning to use Ageia physics features with "future Unreal Engine 3 games on all platforms." The "all platforms" note is particularly interesting. Hidden away from the eyes of public, engineers are creating next-generation Xbox, next-gen PlayStation and next-gen Wii titles. We managed to find out that all creative spirits of these projects are now hidden in caves, working hard on getting the new silicon for future parts. You can expect that new wave of consoles comes will come to market in the 2010/11 timeframe, even though conservative estimates are talking about 2012 at this point. But, clearly, Nvidia's mention of "hundreds of millions of gamers" was a signal for the IT industry as whole. It will be driven in all major graphics application markets. When it comes to PC itself, Nvidia has several plans, seen in this author's 2nd grade MSPaint skills in the picture above. The future is in physics being rendered on Nvidia's integrated chipsets and graphics cards. The key to this strategy is not to think just about Intel or AMD processors, but a bit wider than that. If we are listening to the "rumors that could be true" department, we should to pay attention to the next-generation Sony console, which may integrate physics capability directly into Nvidia's GPU, which reportedly is not going to be the last-minute patchwork Nvidia had to deliver with the PS3 RSX GPU. What makes this deal a sensible solution is the fact that Ageia has the engineers to take advantage of Nvidia's future hardware. You can bet the farm on the fact that future GPUs will have substantial input from Ageia's staff in terms of effectively channeling: Current GPUs have a deadly flaw in GPGPU terms - there are substantial performance penalties when branching is used. At the other hand, CPU and PPU excel in branching, because there is enough cache to put "what-if" instructions and correctly predict what could happen. Intel knew that and is building Larrabee with massive cache in the middle, while Nehalem, Westmere and Sandy Bridge will continue to increase the overall amount of cache, while re-introducing Hyper-Threading, enabling up to 16 threads on a single socket. It is too early to say what will be the first GPU influenced by Ageia's engineers, but we expect that some influence might already be seen in the high-end graphics chip coming in 2009.
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Are Cell's SPEs really redundant logic units?
Whether Reeves' logic holds up depends in great measure on whether each SPE in a Cell processor could be considered a redundant part. In an August 2005 interview with Cell's principal designer at IBM, Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, he explained to us in rather extensive detail the differences between a synergistic processor element in a Cell and a core in an Intel or AMD processor. A Cell is comprised of a single principal processor element (PPE) that is essentially a current generation Power processor. It is not replicated. The other processing elements - the SPEs - are there to handle what is called scalar code: tasks that involve repetitive and reiterative operations, such as shading a texel or dividing a complex number. The SPEs, it was made clear to us, are not replicates of the PPE. One term used to explain the instruction set the Cell uses is single-instruction/multiple-data (SIMD). Essentially, a SIMD instruction applies a logical operation to multiple sets of data, and those multiple sets can then be processed independently in a processor geared to handle scalar code. A GPU accomplishes this by implementing multiple pipelines - Nvidia's 7900 GTX utilizes 24 pixel pipelines and 8 vertex pipelines. Cell accomplishes this using SPEs. However, as is the case with graphics processing, the data flow itself has not been multiplied. In other words, the processor is still doing one thing, but just breaking up the steps in-between and delegating them to the SPEs. "One common perception that I think is not accurate," Dr. Hofstee told us at that time, "is that, because the synergistic processors have a single data flow - which is SIMD - a lot of people seem to think that you can only SPEs appropriately for problems that are SIMD parallel. I think that is a misperception." In Cell architecture, there are no multiple caches for the multiple SPEs, nor are there multiple register sets. Instead, there's one big single-register set with 128 registers that can be accessed by all the SPEs at all times. And replacing the multiple caches are something Dr. Hofstee refers to as a local store, which is a trigger for a three-tier memory architecture that lets the SPEs access a single, bigger pool of memory. "The reason we went to the local store, three-level memory hierarchy - registers, local store, and shared memory," Dr. Hofstee explained, "is something called the memory wall: the fact that microprocessors have gotten faster by a factor of 1000 in the last 20 years, and latency hasn't gone down all that much." He referred to a principle named for Intel engineer Pat Gelsinger, called "Gelsinger's Law:" a corollary of Moore's Law that states that, for every time the number of transistors is doubled on a processor, it delivers not double the performance but instead just 40%. It was this "law" which helped drive Intel - and AMD - toward multicore architecture in the first place. Clearly the goal of multicore architecture from this vantage point was not to create "redundant logic," but moreover multiplied logic - a way of doubling the horsepower and achieving something closer to double the performance. But as Dr. Hofstee explained, those portions of the processor which a manufacturer chooses to replicate, could easily end up contending with one another for priority when it comes time for them to share a single computer system. Case in point: when two cores want the same area of memory. "When you have a miss and you have to wait for memory, I sort of compare it to this 'bucket brigade,'" remarked Dr. Hofstee. "You might have 100 people in the bucket brigade between the core (fire) and the memory (water), but if you only have five outstanding fetches - a bucket brigade with 100 people and five buckets - it just isn't going to be very efficient. So in conventional microprocessors, if I take a conventional microprocessor and I double the memory bandwidth, I might only see a very incremental performance improvement, because in fact, delivered memory bandwidth is limited by the latency induced." In other words, if you replicate everything, you create new latencies when everything has to work together. Therefore, you don't replicate everything - not in smart processor architecture. So what does this mean, applied to the numbers IBM's Tom Reeves provided last week? Certainly there are replicated elements in the Cell processor, and we've learned that even a horsepower-hungry PS3 doesn't need all of them. But if two SPEs aren't really the same as two cores, then perhaps it should not follow that the number of defects to be anticipated should necessarily double, or otherwise be compounded by the number of SPEs. In short, eight SPEs should not necessarily mean eight times the number of defects, any more than doubling the number of transistors (in accordance with Moore's Law) should reduce the yield rate below the 95% mark which foundries, at one time, enjoyed. Thus if the Cell processor really is lucky to see 10% to 20% yields, as Reeves indicated, then if you take Dr. Hofstee's explanation into account, there must be some other reason for it. Nonetheless, "the real surprise here is that Reeves gave an estimate of the actual yield," Insight64's Nathan Brookwood told us. "Semi guys normally won't say anything about yield, on or off the record." 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Saving power is good! : o )
This is pretty sweet actually. I like the whole idea behind the new thin design. Lower power, lower price, smaller size... everything was enhanced. Screw PS2 compatibility... GET A PS2!
This is pretty sweet actually. I like the whole idea behind the new thin design. Lower power, lower price, smaller size... everything was enhanced. Screw PS2 compatibility... GET A PS2!
Buy a PS2 for $100 and a PS3 doe $300 and we're back to the original PS3...
Buy a PS2 for $100 and a PS3 for $300 and we're back to the original PS3...
Sorry fixed.
I still can't understand why they made it deeper, why make a "slim" console that's bigger in one dimension? It's not small enough.
Why do people still play PS2 games? Maybe I am in the minority but when the PS3 came out I started playing PS3 games. The PS2 hasn't seen the light of day in almost two years and I have no desire to bust out any old games to play.
Bringing out a new generation would be a great time for them to bust out a new GPU also, instead of the pathetic excuse they have in the last 2 generations.
And yes, I still occasionally play PS2 games.
Now is the time to buy. Sony should have done this two years ago.
Let the console wars (re-)start! No way Nintendo will just sit by and watch, nor will Microsoft. Again, the consumers win! Car companies take note, this is how the game should be played! Give us better, cleaner and cheaper and we'll buy your cars. Anyway I digress.
Buy a PS2 for $100 and a PS3 doe $300 and we're back to the original PS3...
Listen, I understand but honestly, do you actually use PS2 games? I told my friend about this same thing with the new design and he says, "Awww man, that blows... I liked the fact the original was backwards compatible EVEN THOUGH I DONT USE IT!" I was like dude, it's people like you that screw everything up.
If they would've added a few GB's of RAM, and a new GPU, keeping almost everyother component. They would've had a console that could walk over everything
If they would've added a few GB's of RAM, and a new GPU, keeping almost everyother component. They would've had a console that could walk over everything
Hardware-wise, maybe true. That doesn't help the fact that companies still have to put in 10 times more effort to make their games work with the cell processor.
Why do people still complain about PS2 backwards compatibility but never Xbox? Overall the PS3 has had more b/c than Xbox 360 has ever had, and now that the PS3 software library has roughly equaled the 360's as far as multi plats go, and surpassed it as far as exclusives go, people still want to play PS2 games? The PS2 has been around for 9 years... if you still don't have one it's your own fault.
Why do people still play PS2 games? Maybe I am in the minority but when the PS3 came out I started playing PS3 games. The PS2 hasn't seen the light of day in almost two years and I have no desire to bust out any old games to play.
I think the release pictures are wrong, because I just saw an overview video and the depth is almost the same.
I still can't understand why they made it deeper, why make a "slim" console that's bigger in one dimension? It's not small enough.
I think the release pictures are wrong, because I just saw an overview video and the depth is almost the same.
If they would've added a few GB's of RAM, and a new GPU, keeping almost everyother component. They would've had a console that could walk over everything
That would be making a new console, not just a process upgrade.
Why do people still complain about PS2 backwards compatibility but never Xbox?
Because the Xbox has only ever stepped up compatibility. You can even buy and download some Xbox 1 games now. The PS3 has gradually stopped having any.
Overtake the outdated 360 I say this is good for the ps3 in 2010.
Lets overclock this when we hook it up to a fully internal watercooling kit
That would be making a new console, not just a process upgrade.
That's right. A PS4 with PS3 compatibility is what needed to be done. Otherwise, Sony will still not have altered the competitive balance. This will turn out to be a non-event when the dust settles.
I just wish i could get that cell chip on a normal PC. But probably never happen
sigh
Why do people still complain about PS2 backwards compatibility but never Xbox? Overall the PS3 has had more b/c than Xbox 360 has ever had, and now that the PS3 software library has roughly equaled the 360's as far as multi plats go, and surpassed it as far as exclusives go, people still want to play PS2 games? The PS2 has been around for 9 years... if you still don't have one it's your own fault.
Because the PS2 actually had games worth playing.
I still like my first gen PS3 better, due to the feature like having 4 usb ports, data ports, backwards capability, Linux installation, upgradable hdd, and I think it looks better. But yes it runs hot as hell, hotter then my Pc fully loaded, and its loud. Maybe in time, once the slim comes out and the price drops, I'll have enough confidence to mod my Ps3 into a water-cooled and thermostat on the system.
Too bad it's fugly
Why do people still play PS2 games? Maybe I am in the minority but when the PS3 came out I started playing PS3 games. The PS2 hasn't seen the light of day in almost two years and I have no desire to bust out any old games to play.
Well I happen to love Battlefield MC on that old ps2 of mine =)
I still like my first gen PS3 better, due to the feature like having 4 usb ports, data ports, backwards capability, Linux installation, upgradable hdd, and I think it looks better...
You can still upgrade the hdd on the ps3 slim.
Because the PS2 actually had games worth playing.
I hope everyone realized I was saying that the Xbox had no games and not the usual "LOL PS3 SUX", but probably not since I didn't make it too clear.
God of War 1 & 2 is why I would want PS2 backward compatibility. Maybe they will port those and COO over to PS3 as a special pack. That would be sweet.
Because the PS2 actually had games worth playing.
They also still make games for the PS2 that aren't made for the PS3, mostly JRPGs which I enjoy, like Persona 4 for example.
Like I commented on previous article.. Smaller chip size, lower cost to manufacture and less heat.
For me though.. it doesn't matter because I have one of the first PS3's released. Which has PS2 backward compatibility.
NO, I didn't wait in line for days or buy it on eBay for $1,000. I simply reserved one at gamestop and casually picked it up on the day of it's release. Part of the reason I bought one right away is because it is backwards compatible and my PS2 broke and I still have several PS2 games that I barely got to play before it broke.
I read "Black Edition" lol OCable ps3
fyi, ps3 has downloadable ps1 and ps2 games.
thats not an exclusive feature to xbox