Tiny Corp is 70% confident that AMD will make at least some of its GPU firmware open source

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By Matthew Connatser
published

Tiny Corp is kinda hopeful.

AMD
(Image credit: AMD)

AI company Tiny Corp. says it is 70% confident that AMD will make some or all of its Radeon GPU firmware open source by the end of next week, according to an X post made earlier today. The somewhat hopeful prediction comes after Tiny Corp and AMD discussed the issues the former has been having with readying its upcoming RX 7900 XTX-powered TinyBox, which is intended to be used for AI work. Should AMD make the firmware open source, it would allow Tiny Corp. and others to fix bugs on their own, and potentially squeeze more performance out of AMD GPUs.

You might be surprised that AMD is embroiled in a controversy over open source; after all, the company's Radeon Open Computer (ROCm) software has been open source since it came out in 2016 and has supported Radeon and Radeon Pro cards for a few months now. However, ROCm is software, and software is just one of the things that GPU performance and behavior hinges on. Firmware can just be as important, but the Micro Engine Scheduler (MES) firmware on AMD GPUs is not open source and is instead developed solely by AMD.

So, when AI startup Tiny Corp. experienced MES-related bugs with RX 7900 XTX cards that were supposed to go into its TinyBox computer, the only solution was for AMD to release a patch. Tiny Corp. (or perhaps its founder George Hotz) made these issues public on its X account yesterday and said, "It upsets me that the MES isn't open source" and said AMD "should immediately stop development of high end ML libraries and fix their basic sh*t [compiler and drivers]."

Given how incendiary Tiny Corp. was (it also floated the idea of switching to Nvidia or Intel GPUs), AMD inevitably noticed the posts, and its CEO Lisa Su publicly stated a solution for the bugs was in the works. A few hours after posting about the buggy firmware, Tiny Corp. announced that it would meet with AMD representatives the next day (today). Tiny Corp. also opened a poll asking X users whether they believed AMD would make the firmware open source; at the time of writing, 52.8% of votes were cast for "no."

After the meeting, Tiny Corp. said it was 70% confident that AMD would at least make the scheduler and memory hierarchy management portions of the firmware open source, which is what the AI startup specifically wants. "We aren't open source purists... But we need the scheduler and the memory hierarchy management to be open. This is what it takes to push the performance of neural networks," the company's X account said.

Should AMD's decision land in that 30% zone, then at a minimum, it could cause Tiny Corp. to abandon the RX 7900 XTX for the TinyBox and choose another vendor, most likely Intel, as Nvidia's GPUs are expensive and even less open source. However, there could be wider repercussions for AMD beyond just losing a single company. Open source is a big selling point of AMD's AI hardware-software ecosystem. If AMD doesn't find a happy medium, it might discourage other companies (especially companies prioritizing open source) from using AMD's platform.

Matthew Connatser
Matthew Connatser

Matthew Connatser is a freelancing writer for Tom's Hardware US. He writes articles about CPUs, GPUs, SSDs, and computers in general.

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26 Comments Comment from the forums
  • bit_user
    Tiny Corp. (or perhaps its founder George Hotz) made these issues public on its X account yesterday and said, "It upsets me that the MES isn't open source" and said AMD "should immediately stop development of high end ML libraries and fix their basic sh*t ."
    ...
    Tiny Corp. also opened a poll asking X users whether they believed AMD would make the firmware open source; at the time of writing, 52.8% of votes were cast for "no."
    This guy is a real piece of work. With whiny, narcissistic partners like that, who needs competitors? I'll bet the best realistic case of his business plan would amount to less than 0.1% of AMD's 2024 GPU revenue, yet he acts like he's their savior or something. Maybe if this had happened a year earlier, there could be something to that notion.

    Should AMD's decision land in that 30% zone, then at a minimum, it could cause Tiny Corp. to abandon the RX 7900 XTX for the TinyBox and choose another vendor, most likely Intel, as Nvidia's GPUs are expensive and even less open source.
    Good luck with that. Intel GPUs don't have near as much performance and he knows it.

    there could be wider repercussions for AMD beyond just losing a single company. Open source is a big selling point of AMD's AI hardware-software ecosystem. If AMD doesn't find a happy medium, it might discourage other companies (especially companies prioritizing open source) from using AMD's platform.
    Please don't spread this FUD. These are gaming GPUs. If this was Nvidia we were talking about, they would send a Cease and Desist letter for violating the license terms of their CUDA EULA, which stipulates that you can't use their gaming GPUs in data centers. The box he's building is essential a datacenter-oriented AI appliance, as far as I understand.

    It seems like it would be nice if AMD did open source these firmware components (which seem to have nothing to do with their display controller, before someone raises that specter), but in no way does AMD's GPU business hinge on this decision.
    Reply
  • bit_user
    BTW, if this guy is successful, he's going to hurt both gamers (by driving demand & prices for RX 7900 XTX cards) and AMD (by stealing demand from their actual higher-margin datacenter products).

    If I were AMD, I might just politely call his bluff.
    Reply
  • The Historical Fidelity
    bit_user said:
    BTW, if this guy is successful, he's going to hurt both gamers (by driving demand & prices for RX 7900 XTX cards) and AMD (by stealing demand from their actual higher-margin datacenter products).

    If I were AMD, I might just politely call his bluff.
    Yeah he should know better…never bite the hand that feeds you.
    Reply
  • endocine
    bit_user said:
    This guy is a real piece of work. With whiny, narcissistic partners like that, who needs competitors? I'll bet the best realistic case of his business plan would amount to less than 0.1% of AMD's 2024 GPU revenue, yet he acts like he's their savior or something. Maybe if this had happened a year earlier, there could be something to that notion.

    So users aren't allowed to complain about flaws in products, since when, and how is that whiny or even narcissistic, do you know what the latter word means? Its also not Hotz and his company having issues with these GPUs, AMD needs to up their game and compete with nVidia so there isn't a monopoly in AI hardware. AMD absolutely pushes QA onto their users, and now that they are making $, its time for them to fix that situation.
    Reply
  • The Historical Fidelity
    endocine said:
    So users aren't allowed to complain about flaws in products, since when, and how is that whiny or even narcissistic, do you know what the latter word means? It’s also not Hotz and his company having issues with these GPUs, AMD needs to up their game and compete with nVidia so there isn't a monopoly in AI hardware. AMD absolutely pushes QA onto their users, and now that they are making $, it’s time for them to fix that situation.
    refutable, Tiny Corp is lucky AMD is even entertaining their idea of CDNA workarounds using consumer cards.
    Reply
  • parkerthon
    endocine said:
    So users aren't allowed to complain about flaws in products, since when, and how is that whiny or even narcissistic, do you know what the latter word means? Its also not Hotz and his company having issues with these GPUs, AMD needs to up their game and compete with nVidia so there isn't a monopoly in AI hardware. AMD absolutely pushes QA onto their users, and now that they are making $, its time for them to fix that situation.
    He’s not a user, he’s a reseller targeting businesses by repackaging consumer gpus to make a cheap solution. It’s a risky flawed idea frankly. It’s not that I look down on the idea either. Backblaze did this way back when there was a major hard drive supply shortage from the tsunami. They sourced consumer hdds from individuals, even shucking them from extetnal usb drive enclosures, to add capacity to their back up solutions and still do to this day. I just don’t think high end gaming gpus are a good fit here.

    I personally don’t think it’s narcissism. I think it’s free publicity for an otherwise unknown start up at this point. Being provocative helps. This could be gorilla marketing as much as it is a whiney call to action.
    Reply
  • digitalgriffin
    bit_user said:
    This guy is a real piece of work. With whiny, narcissistic partners like that, who needs competitors? I'll bet the best realistic case of his business plan would amount to less than 0.1% of AMD's 2024 GPU revenue, yet he acts like he's their savior or something. Maybe if this had happened a year earlier, there could be something to that notion.


    Good luck with that. Intel GPUs don't have near as much performance and he knows it.


    Please don't spread this FUD. These are gaming GPUs. If this was Nvidia we were talking about, they would send a Cease and Desist letter for violating the license terms of their CUDA EULA, which stipulates that you can't use their gaming GPUs in data centers. The box he's building is essential a datacenter-oriented AI appliance, as far as I understand.

    It seems like it would be nice if AMD did open source these firmware components (which seem to have nothing to do with their display controller, before someone raises that specter), but in no way does AMD's GPU business hinge on this decision.
    This.

    Dude I just love your post sometimes.
    Reply
  • digitalgriffin
    endocine said:
    So users aren't allowed to complain about flaws in products, since when, and how is that whiny or even narcissistic, do you know what the latter word means? Its also not Hotz and his company having issues with these GPUs, AMD needs to up their game and compete with nVidia so there isn't a monopoly in AI hardware. AMD absolutely pushes QA onto their users, and now that they are making $, its time for them to fix that situation.
    It's about ROI. If you have a limited number of resources and 80% of your profit comes from data center AI, then you shift 80% of resources to it.

    Sorry a 7900XTX isn't a data center product. It's a consumer product. And this is the same reason they sell fire gl and quadro processors. And those are still only meant for desktop uses. Not data center.
    Reply
  • digitalgriffin
    parkerthon said:
    He’s not a user, he’s a reseller targeting businesses by repackaging consumer gpus to make a cheap solution. It’s a risky flawed idea frankly. It’s not that I look down on the idea either. Backblaze did this way back when there was a major hard drive supply shortage from the tsunami. They sourced consumer hdds from individuals, even shucking them from extetnal usb drive enclosures, to add capacity to their back up solutions and still do to this day. I just don’t think high end gaming gpus are a good fit here.

    I personally don’t think it’s narcissism. I think it’s free publicity for an otherwise unknown start up at this point. Being provocative helps. This could be gorilla marketing as much as it is a whiney call to action.
    Certainly not a good look. I'm not sure I would want to do business with a CEO who is incendiary about getting his way through petulant demands and threat of bad publicity.

    Dealing with him during a conflict over support would be a nightmare.
    Reply
  • bit_user
    endocine said:
    So users aren't allowed to complain about flaws in products, since when, and how is that whiny or even narcissistic,
    The way he publicly trash-talks AMD and issues ultimatums is incredibly unprofessional. If you actually read the quotes in the article and think that behavior is okay, then it seems we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

    I'd be wary of encouraging this sort of behavior, if I were AMD.

    endocine said:
    AMD needs to up their game and compete with nVidia so there isn't a monopoly in AI hardware.
    You should acquaint yourself with their MI300 series products. It seems they're actually competitive, for once!

    endocine said:
    AMD absolutely pushes QA onto their users, and now that they are making $, its time for them to fix that situation.
    Be that as it may, there are normal and appropriate ways to raise these issues with them. Partners will be able to file priority bugs and even arrange meetings to discuss larger concerns and issues they're having. In the event he reaches an impasse with AMD and feels the need to make that public, it could be done much more diplomatically.
    Reply