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At The Mercy Of Developers...

Behind Pwn2Own: Exclusive Interview With Charlie Miller
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Alan: Exactly. How many of us have landed on a cyber-squatted site when we’ve accidentally left one letter from a normal Web site? Not to mention that big sites can be hacked too (Asus' home page, or Dolphin Stadium’s Web site during the 2007 Super Bowl).

Same question then, for last year's Flash exploit that took down Windows, but theoretically also affected Linux machines running Flash. If users had turned on NX bit for all applications, were running 64-bit Vista, had outbound firewalls, and were running heuristic-based anti-malware suites, would that have limited the damage and ability for a malicious hacker to "take the next step" and cause more damage?

Charlie: Pretty much the same answer. You can do some things that make it a little harder on an attacker, but really if someone wants to nail you with that bug, they would have. 

Alan: So there really wasn’t much that end users could have done to protect themselves. We’re pretty much at the mercy of the software developers to protect us?

Charlie: Mostly, users are at the mercy of the products they buy. Of course, the vendors are at the mercy of the consumers, so if the consumers all decide only to buy secure products, that is what will be produced.

Alan: Actually, let me get back to the comment you made earlier.  When Firefox and IE8 were compromised by Nils this year, he wasn’t able to execute arbitrary code then. Without going into specifics, do all of these exploits disappear when I close the browser? That is, if I had a compromised browser, but then exited out completely and then re-launched the application to go directly to my bank’s home page, would I be safe?

Charlie: Actually, I think he did execute arbitrary code. But regardless, what you described does not help. The exploit can write files to disk, execute them, etc. Once they have any code running, you’re screwed (unless they’re in a sandbox).

Alan: What do you think about future approaches to security such as secure hypervisors or taking a dumb terminal approach (i.e. Citrix or VNC in a world with infinitely fast bandwidth and infinitely small latency)?

Charlie: I think no matter how you set it up, it’s going to boil down to complex code interacting with outside data and your own personal data. In this case, the best thing is to just focus on making exploitation harder and sandboxing the application from personal data as much as possible. Every hurdle added reduces the chance of the exploitability of a given vulnerability.

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  • 2 Hide
    crisisavatar , March 25, 2009 7:28 AM
    he was born to kill
  • 6 Hide
    Niva , March 25, 2009 8:00 AM
    Blah, sad he didn't give an estimate to linux security. He said it has some method of protection but didn't expand on that much...

    As osx market share grows we'll see more exploits.
  • 0 Hide
    Silluete , March 25, 2009 8:12 AM
    Interesting thing about sandboxing, it's mean chrome more safe than other browser? or i missing something here?
  • 0 Hide
    lire210 , March 25, 2009 9:29 AM
    whats up mac
  • 1 Hide
    pcfxer , March 25, 2009 12:45 PM
    Chrome uses processes instead of threads. The difference is that the memory space for each process is different--better sandboxing.

    Processes have increased headroom: they are making a copy of local variables and structures at the time of "forking".

    Threads "fork off" as functional code and work with their own memory space... in a nutshell.

    Sandboxing doesn't mean that Chrome is safer, it does mean that if sandboxing is implemented correctly Chrome CAN be safer. Security is so relative ;) .
  • 4 Hide
    AlanDang , March 25, 2009 12:57 PM
    Exactly, Chrome is currently safer than any other web browser on Windows Vista or Windows 7. We have an upcoming interview that talks a little bit more about this, but we haven't made plans on a dedicated article. Is that something people are interested in?
  • 0 Hide
    echdskech , March 25, 2009 1:44 PM
    AlanDangExactly, Chrome is currently safer than any other web browser on Windows Vista or Windows 7. We have an upcoming interview that talks a little bit more about this, but we haven't made plans on a dedicated article. Is that something people are interested in?count me in A


    Count me in. Come to think of it, I spend more time on my browser than any other piece of software (except the OS ofcourse) at any given day. primarily because I use it both at work for research and for play (ie reading articles here). Also, trend these days seem indicate it becoming more and more a target rather than the OS.

    Would be extra nice if the level of detail would be like the articles you guys write when a new cpu architecture is discussed. =)
  • 0 Hide
    anthony lackey , March 25, 2009 2:50 PM
    There is less ppl attacking Mac's because they aren't the mainstream. Hackers would rather try to infect as many ppl as possible thats why they target PC users.
  • 0 Hide
    Anonymous , March 25, 2009 4:16 PM
    If Apple does not allow cloning mac os may be safe for a long while, nobody likes to be tied to a single hardware vender. I really don't see how Apple could pull more that 15% to 18% market share without clones. JMO.
  • 1 Hide
    dedhorse , March 25, 2009 4:25 PM
    Good interview. Makes up for that Mac review.
  • 0 Hide
    zodiacfml , March 25, 2009 5:16 PM
    count me in. :)  i've been using chrome since it came out.
    though, in my usage, they haven't fixed the issue with auto-hide taskbar in vista.
  • 0 Hide
    eddieroolz , March 25, 2009 5:27 PM
    Great read, nice article Alan!
  • 0 Hide
    4c1dr41n1 , March 25, 2009 7:18 PM
    What if I use a virtual machine? I could

    1) copy it, open it, surf the web, close it, delete the copy.
    2) copy it again, open it, use internet bank, close it, delete copy again.

    Nice enough sandboxing?
  • 1 Hide
    Herbert_HA , March 25, 2009 7:31 PM
    It's a very nice article, indeed.

    But please, stop using so many pages! It's a pain in the ass to keep clicking every 2 questions...and that was an small article, other have more than 10 pages, unnecessarily. I guess you people are trying to keep access numbers up, so you could sell more ads, but it's surely not user-friendly to have to load the same content over and over.
  • -4 Hide
    4c1dr41n4 , March 25, 2009 7:36 PM
    What if I use a virtual machine? I could

    1) copy it, open it, surf the web, close it, delete copy.
    2) copy again, open it, use internet banking, close it, delete copy again.

    Nice enough sandboxing?
  • 1 Hide
    nukemaster , March 25, 2009 9:12 PM
    4c1dr41n4What if I use a virtual machine? I could1) copy it, open it, surf the web, close it, delete copy. 2) copy again, open it, use internet banking, close it, delete copy again.Nice enough sandboxing?

    In that case, just mount a live linux CD image in the drive then use it. always clean, no need to del + copy.
  • -4 Hide
    Anonymous , March 25, 2009 10:05 PM
    Miller, page 4: "In neither case did I get root/admin access."

    In other words, he actually didn't hack the Mac.

    What in the world is this fraud? How can you say you 'pwned' a computer without root access?
  • 0 Hide
    TheFuzzball , March 26, 2009 12:50 AM
    God help us when Conficker becomes cross-platform :D 
  • 0 Hide
    Anonymous , March 26, 2009 1:43 AM
    I wish there was more Charlie's voice in this interview. Now Alan did the most of the talking and Charlie basically had to say yes or no. At least in the most important topics.

    Nice reading, but not perfect.
  • 1 Hide
    Anonymous , March 26, 2009 1:58 AM
    It's a little upsetting that he sidesteps the issue of linux on the grounds of granny's incompetence, does he expect granny to stay on top of vulnerabilities in all of her installed software on the windows or mac boxes, assuming she'd need more third party software sources on either of the other platforms than say ubuntu with it's repositories.
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