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Can AMD Survive Another Core 2 Duo?

By - Source: Tom's Hardware | B 46 comments

Opinion - IDF is just around the corner and Intel will provide a flood of new information about its upcoming Nehalem (Core i7) processor as well as its 32 nm and 22 nm successors, new architectures such as Larrabee, the ready-to-launch WiMax mobile platform, CE processors such as Tolapai and new partners such as Dreamworks. IDF’s marketing machine typically buries anything from AMD, but this year, AMD is reverting to a strategy from the past: AMD is setting up its camp in a hotel nearby in an effort to balance Intel’s messages. A first briefing discounting Intel’s current product line was given to journalists earlier today. And if the tone of this briefing is any indication, then Nehalem feels like Core 2 Duo all over again.

If you are somewhat interested in what Intel is up to these days, next week’s IDF should bring very few surprises. The new Core i7 processor, the first chip based on Nehalem architecture, will debut in desktop flavors in the fourth quarter, there will be more Nehalem mobile and server chips in 2009; there will be more details on the company’s much discussed 2009/2010; Larrabee graphics card; we will see USB 3.0 and WiMax demonstrations; Intel will announce that it is now producing more 45 nm than 65 nm processors and it will tell attendees that its mobile CPUs are overtaking desktop CPUs in terms of production volume. There will be plenty of information of future technologies that we can expect to see within the next four to five years. In fact we hear that the information coming out of IDF Fall will exceed any other previous IDF and we expect Intel to take full advantage to make its pitch to the 5000-or-so developers and a few hundred journalists from around the world.

There is not much AMD can do during this time, but I understand that it is a bit awkward for AMD executives and the marketing department to keep quiet and simply watch as Intel conquers the front pages of tech publications for a full week. Rather than wait for journalists to check back with AMD and ask the green team’s take on Intel’s claims, the company this year decided to take a pro-active approach again and relay its message before the feeding frenzy begins.

So, what is AMD’s message?

1. It’s all about graphics

Note to AMD: We got it. A great processor alone does not make you happy anymore. I believe most journalists out there are absolutely with AMD on this one, but repeating this story over and over does not convince us even more than we already are. There is nothing new to this story for IDF, other than I noticed a new marketing term for visual quality - "Eye Definition." I levae that up to you how well this one works.

AMD’s balanced platform approach consisting of a good-enough processor and strong graphics are probably the best weapon AMD currently has against Intel. As long as Intel graphics chipsets remain weak, this is AMD’s most effective pitch. However, the Radeon 4800 was just announced, so there is really nothing new from AMD and the company did not provide anything about what may come after the 4800 series. The company needs to follow up on this one quickly to keep its traction in the market.

2. Larrabee: Discussing a paper product

Nvidia already zeroed in on Larrabee and sent a document questioning Larrabee’s product claims to journalists. AMD now chimes in and asks questions about Larrabee’s scalability, power consumption and a possible failing software model for the new architecture. AMD’s executive said that "Larrabee feels like the next Itanium" to them, which may be a bit early to say, since we really haven’t seen a product yet. Also, AMD failed to mention that it does not have the best track record with choosing a software model for its stream processors either - the software model was changed twice within the past 12 months.

Attacks on Larrabee are to be expected and Nvidia in fact does this in a very efficient way while providing a very convincing platform, which is the market leader at this time. But these shots are little more than scatter shooting right now as neither AMD nor Nvidia know what they are actually shooting at. Intel needs to provide a lot more details about Larrabee before anyone can make any reasonable claims what this product will be able to do and what not.

Larrabee is without doubt on AMD’s radar, but the company says it is "delighted" with its own direction, which involved a switch to an open programming model of its graphics cards. Beyond that, we don’t know much. Criticizing a high power consumption of Larrabee does not work (yet), as we don’t know how much power Larrabee will consume and AMD just rolled out its own 270 watt graphics card.

3. Opteron is fast, Xeon is slow and expensive

We also heard (again) that the company’s Opteron chip is faster and more power efficient than Intel’s Xeon processors. We don’t want to go too deep into this one, but anyone who is researching this topic knows that at least the power claims are justified. However, Intel has been cutting deep into Opteron revenues and shipments and, ultimately, AMD margins. There is an obvious problem AMD needs to come up with more convincing messages and products that are even more compelling than the B3 Opterons it is offering today.

Nehalem-based Xeons are just around the corner and it does not take much to see that these processors will continue the march that was started with Intel’s Woodcrest Xeons back in Q3 2006. So, what is AMD’s plan? First, AMD hopes that the dual-socket and four-socket Nehalems won’t be available anytime soon and then there is the 45 nm Shanghai that will be shipping in Q4. AMD said that it believes that actual Shanghai server will be available in Q4 as well. Desktop processors will follow "quickly", which, if AMD will keep its traditional product strategy in place, means that 45 nm desktop processors will roll out within 60 - 90 days after the Shanghai debut.

There was no additional information about Shanghai available.

4. 45 nm is late

AMD will not agree with this statement. But let’s cut through the chase and let’s be honest: Dirk Meyer, recently promoted to the role of CEO, stated during AMD’s Q2 2006 conference call that AMD would accelerate its 45 nm development and ship 45 nm processors by mid-2008 and close the gap to Intel by 6 months. It is unclear what Meyer exactly meant with "shipping" at the time (Samples? Volume?), and you can always twist and stretch the meaning of words. What we know, however, is AMD certainly has not closed the gap to Intel. AMD was one year behind Intel with 65 nm and AMD will be one year behind Intel with 45 nm, senior vice president Randy Allen confirmed today. He told us that AMD aims to catch up with future generations.

However, Allen now claims that 45 nm "is ahead of schedule", which just does not make much sense to us, even if he explained this remark by stating that 45 nm is ahead of schedule in terms of "clock speed and performance". In some way, it appears Allen and Meyer may not have been on the same page what mid-2008 actually means and the inconsistency of the message originates in miscommunication.

No one of us journalists really care if AMD is behind or ahead by a few months. If AMD can squeeze more months out of 65 nm and remain competitive, then this is actually a good thing and just shows how strong the manufacturing process really is. I just don’t like being told that AMD is ahead of schedule, when they are actually behind.

Conclusion: Is AMD ignoring a threat?

I was left scratching my head over the briefing AMD gave today. There was no news, just the mantra we have heard multiple times this year already and lots of doubts and concerns about Intel’s technology. My first impression was that in targeting Intel’s products with today’s technology, AMD really had not much to say about how it will be answering the obvious threat Nehalem and Larrabee are - with the exception of the balanced platform message. No news about Shanghai, no news about the 45 desktop part, no news about a future graphics part. Isn’t IDF a great opportunity to provide future product plans that would enable us to see what the future will bring?

This is a completely subjective impression, but at least to me, Nehalem feels like Core 2 Duo all over again. Back in spring of 2006, AMD had a similar marketing and PR strategy in place, discounting Core 2 Duo as a paper product that won’t be able to touch the Opteron and Athlon X2 in terms of performance and power efficiency. We all know that Core 2 Duo and its derivates almost bankrupted AMD, stripping AMD of virtually all advantages and market gains it had made in the 18 months before. Back then, I was concerned that AMD would underestimate Intel and I have the same feeling again.

So, is ignoring AMD an obvious threat? I doubt that AMD is underestimating Intel internally, but AMD’s public presentations leave the impression that the company isn’t taking Intel’s products serious enough. AMD may already have been at the mercy with Intel and its Core 2 Duo processor and Nehalem may feel like a reboot to Q3 2006 for AMD. Only now, AMD has a substantial weaker position from a financial point of view, but is prepared much better to deal with another hard hitting technology: Intel’s bases are loaded and AMD really needs to come up with a really good pitcher.

Following the conference call, I actually got in touch with AMD to discuss much of the content that was discussed, content I did not agree with and content that should have been but was not discussed during the call. And there are certain aspects that shed light why AMD gave the presentation in this way. Perhaps most importantly, there were journalists with different technology knowledge levels on the call and AMD chose to emphasize its graphics message, to provide a counter weight against Larrabee. There is a tremendous amount of pressure on AMD to limit the possible damage that can result out of IDF and questioning certain claims about Nehalem & Co. was the preferred way to build up a defense.

Also, we should not forget that AMD constantly lives with the dilemma that it is out-resourced and out-spent in comparison with Intel. If it reveals too much about its future strategy and Intel likes that strategy there is at least the theoretical chance that Intel could take this idea and deliver a product even before AMD. This was probably a key reason for the company to switch its entire communications strategy and remain completely quiet about a new product until it exactly knows its specs and capabilities - and is convinced that Nvidia or Intel can’t beat it to market anymore. In turn, if AMD does not provide any information, which really was the case today, there will be doubt about the competitiveness of the company’s products.

Undoubtedly, this week there will be questions whether AMD will be able to withstand the force of Nehalem and Larrabee. But will AMD go away? Well, it may split, but it won’t go away. Even if Intel could strip AMD of its remaining life lines, a functioning AMD is in the best interest of us all: Intel can control its anti-trust concerns even if AMD turned out to be a major pain in the you know what for them - but keeping AMD small and at a manageable level is actually much better for Intel than no AMD at all. System vendors and consumers need AMD as a balance in the market and they need two strong players as suppliers. And strong AMD is the reason why we saw the stunning innovation in the microprocessor industry this decade.

I don’t want to paint a completely dark scenario. In fact, it is obvious that the company enjoys a great deal of sympathy in the market right now. I also agree that AMD has impressive products in its lineup today and there are reasons its PR strategy has to be different than what Intel does. But the current approach just does not work and will create more problems for AMD.

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  • 0 Hide
    genored , August 18, 2008 11:30 AM
    Wow its so sad truly. Amd has the best IGP on the market and the best Low end CPU. 780G + 4X50e is a total domination. And lets face it most peopel don't really need anything more or less then a amd build. Intel has no CPU in the price range of a 4x50e that can outperform or be more energy efficient. The only time when Intel wins is when you go upp to E8x00 series. A CPU like that is for gamers mostly. But if you look at price/performance AMD can deliver the same gaming performance. So we are left with the TOP line CPU. Well Intel is raping AMD here. BUT who the fuck has the money to buy a 1000$ CPU?

    I just don't get it. AMD has a better lineup and most people would benefit from getting a AMD system. And still they get a more expensive Intel system that gives you less performance for the money.
  • 0 Hide
    Wheat_Thins , August 18, 2008 12:23 PM
    genoredWow its so sad truly. Amd has the best IGP on the market and the best Low end CPU. 780G + 4X50e is a total domination. And lets face it most peopel don't really need anything more or less then a amd build. Intel has no CPU in the price range of a 4x50e that can outperform or be more energy efficient. The only time when Intel wins is when you go upp to E8x00 series. A CPU like that is for gamers mostly. But if you look at price/performance AMD can deliver the same gaming performance. So we are left with the TOP line CPU. Well Intel is raping AMD here. BUT who the fuck has the money to buy a 1000$ CPU?I just don't get it. AMD has a better lineup and most people would benefit from getting a AMD system. And still they get a more expensive Intel system that gives you less performance for the money.


    Cause Geeks want top end performance and the average clueless consumer walks into the store when they get a new computer and the first thing they say is, "I want an Intel" because they have no clue what AMD even is.

    Back in my college days I would honestly have customers walk into Best Buy and not ask for a computer, they would ask for an Intel. Even when I tried to educate them about the AMD product line they were like, "Stop wasting my time and give me a product I have heard of."

    AMD can compete with Intel still at many levels but unfortunately this is competing on PRICE which is never a trend a technology company should be happy taking. Now that i7 has stole one of their greatest achievements (ODMC) cranked up the bus speed, and created a web with it between all cores one can only imagine the performance to increase further. I like AMD as much as anybody else but my next machine is more then likely going to be Intel given the anticipated and already shown performance coming off pretty much the maiden voyage samples A0? A1?
  • -6 Hide
    elbert , August 18, 2008 12:40 PM
    A better question would be can Intel Survive Another Core 2 Duo because they only seem to be replacing there old high end with new. There high end dual cores are over priced and can only compete in games against phenom. The Q6600 is the best Intel has to face AMD in their price range. From a price stand point Nehalem is only replacing penryn quads.

    Point is Intel dropped their 6 core Penryn and doesn't seem to plan a octal core Nehalem launch unless AMD catch up. Intel has more to fear that quad Nehalem doesn't perform enough over quad penryn or G0 kentsfield for enthusiast's.
  • 0 Hide
    Zorg , August 18, 2008 12:51 PM
    Right, AMD is getting the crap kicked out of them because everyone is an idiot. :lol: 
  • 0 Hide
    genored , August 18, 2008 1:14 PM
    Wheat_Thins ya sadly its the way it is people just don't know. Oh i am also gonna get a i7 even if it hurts my pride getting an ITEM with an i in the beginning of them name. Still most of use that know something are gonna get a amd HD4780 1gb or a 4850x2
  • 3 Hide
    eklipz330 , August 18, 2008 1:24 PM
    no they wont survive another core2duo if they don't get up to speed. any1 want to second that?
  • 0 Hide
    kidswithguns , August 18, 2008 1:44 PM
    AMD's holding on its "balanced system", for AMD to catch up Intel's CPU, the next CPU generation, it will need to be faster than the current Phenom 100%. AMD is fighting a hard battle, the current HD4000 series is a big success, but It won't able to push NVIDIA back like Intel did to AMD with its Core 2 Duo.
    AMD still have a long way to go. Both AMD and Intel have their full "system", with CPU, GPU and Main chipset, what about NVIDIA? If Intel's GPU solution really a success, NVIDIA will be in dipshit.
    Atleast AMD still can hold on to its "balanced system".

    Intel: CPU, GPU, CHIPSET.
    AMD: CPU, GPU, CHIPSET.
    NVIDIA: GPU, CHIPSET.
  • -4 Hide
    faithful , August 18, 2008 2:06 PM
    I have heard that Toms Hardware has become very biased. It looks it might true. I do agree that AMD has seriously dropped the ball, but this article is very biased against and negative towards AMD. I do believe AMD is going to struggle against Nehalem. Shangai does however give serious competition against Penryn. The reason Dirk Meyer said that they will be 6 month ahead, is because Intel's 45nm was only realy comercially available since a couple of months ago because of "delays."

    AMD has struggled to commit to their launch dates. If however they can come through with Shangai they could be only 6 months behind Intel. Shangai runs on current motherboards and the core is still basically Barcelona. That should mean that the processor would actually be available in retail. Lots of speculation, but I'm just trying to see what Dirk might mean.

    Lets give dues where they are deserved. Intel has made a wonderful comeback with Core2. AMD has a wonderful platform. Intel's G45 can't even render HD videos and the graphics are pathetic compared to the competition. How can this be unimportant? I do think you still need convincing! Many of my customers are less and less worried about the CPU's performance. I still customers who overspend on CPU's and underspend on the rest.

  • 0 Hide
    pbrigido , August 18, 2008 2:33 PM
    Of course AMD will survive. They are just a bit lower than its competition when it comes to bringing new products to the market, mainly in regards to is CPU line.
  • 2 Hide
    hannibal , August 18, 2008 2:54 PM
    Well, it's not so negative. Intel has an advantage at this moment in production technology and capacity. It allso tells why it's not wise for AMD to release too much of it's upcoming products.
    And just like the article said: "We need strong AMD to keep the development on and competition in the market."
  • 0 Hide
    faithful , August 18, 2008 3:12 PM
    hannibalWell, it's not so negative. Intel has an adwantage at this moment in production technology and capacity. It allso tells why it's not wise for AMD to release too much of it's upcoming products.And just like the article said: "We need strong AMD to keep the development on and competition in the market."


    I suppose you are right. I am a bit too critical. The last paragraph does save the article a bit. It still is quite amazing that AMD could have survived agains a giant like Intel. Intel almost makes in a quater what AMD is worth in total - shocking. Maybe we should ask the question why on earth Intel actually struggled against AMD at all concerning performance of the P4? Even the Core2 relies mostly on P3, which was a better performer than P4 per clock.

    We should also ask why it took Intel so long to come up with i7. AMD had this technology for years now. Intel spend again more on RND than what AMD is worth. They should have been much further by now. And maybe we should give AMD more credit for being able to compete.

    This could be a conspiracy... Intel and AMD secretly meet in a back ally after work. "This time it is your turn to win."
  • 0 Hide
    kidswithguns , August 18, 2008 3:22 PM
    Yeah, AMD will survice, they will struggle through this. Shangai will give Penryn some competition, but I doubt it will out-perform Penryn. What about the up-coming Nehalem? When Shangai out AMD will still stay where it is right now, 1 step behind Intel.
  • 0 Hide
    Anonymous , August 18, 2008 3:23 PM
    I've never seen an AMD commercial. But i have seen lots of intel commercials. AMD needs to start some new marketing strategy they need to teach consumers!!!
  • 0 Hide
    faithful , August 18, 2008 3:56 PM
    Money money money... Intel struggled to innovate, so they advertised! AMD does not have the spending power of Intel. AMD relies on retail salesmen to help educate people.

    Unfortunately they are generally also uneducated.
  • 1 Hide
    faithful , August 18, 2008 4:03 PM
    AMD claims that Shangai actually outperforms the current Xeons. It should not outperform Nehalem. They only need to outperform the current Xeons to stay in the game. The Nehalem requires a completely new and more expensive platform. New platforms takes time to settle in the market. That would give AMD time to make a bit of money. Shangai may just be underestimated. It is not the 3870 vs 4870, but we might be surprised.

    Intel's strong marketing arm might kill that though. I have a hunch though that not everything about Nehalem is going to go Intel's way - just a hunch though.
  • 0 Hide
    itadakimasu , August 18, 2008 4:17 PM
    i've never had anybody in a computer store pitch amd to me...

    i was pretty happy w\ my last 2 systems that were AMD based and i am still sticking w\ ATI cards but having moved to a Q9450 from an amd X2 6400+ i'm going to stick w\ the intel processor i think...

    maybe the 6400 would have been better had it been water cooled too like my 9450, which was showing a bios temp of 13c last night when i was operating on my poor system.
  • 0 Hide
    lightzy , August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
    genoredWow its so sad truly. Amd has the best IGP on the market and the best Low end CPU. 780G + 4X50e is a total domination. And lets face it most peopel don't really need anything more or less then a amd build. Intel has no CPU in the price range of a 4x50e that can outperform or be more energy efficient. The only time when Intel wins is when you go upp to E8x00 series. A CPU like that is for gamers mostly. But if you look at price/performance AMD can deliver the same gaming performance. So we are left with the TOP line CPU. Well Intel is raping AMD here. BUT who the fuck has the money to buy a 1000$ CPU?I just don't get it. AMD has a better lineup and most people would benefit from getting a AMD system. And still they get a more expensive Intel system that gives you less performance for the money.



    Why are you so surprised? Never heard of Apple?
    People on the whole buy names, not products. People on the whole are dumb and wouldn't know the difference in any case.

    In any case, I have no problems with AMDs PR strategy.
    Worked a damn treat with the 4800 series didn't it? blew nVidia out of the water with vastly superior cards for VASTLY VASTLY superior pricing..

    Granted there's only so much luck they can have, but who knows. It makes sense if you look at it in light of the 4800.
  • 0 Hide
    crockdaddy , August 18, 2008 4:35 PM
    joker96I've never seen an AMD commercial. But i have seen lots of intel commercials. AMD needs to start some new marketing strategy they need to teach consumers!!!



    AMD said it best a number of years ago, no way they can come close to matching Intel marketing, and why should they? If Intel spends lots of money marketing and people go to Best Buy to purchase computers what do they usually buy? Often they buy the cheapest computer with seemingly the most options. Which often means AMD reaps rewards from the Intel marketing machine. I do or would agree AMD should market more within the enterprise segment.

    I hope as most do that AMD get's their shit together and starts producing better processors so we can keep the competition flowing.
  • 3 Hide
    BSMonitor , August 18, 2008 4:44 PM
    When AMD's processor's outperformed Intel's clock-for-clock, AMD gained market share. Now the tables have turned a complete 180.

    Intel Processors clock higher and run cooler. Not to mention they are more efficient clock-for-clock. The only advantage AMD still has is in the scalability in multi-core environments. The FSB is a major bottleneck for multi-core/multi-socket configs. Hence Nehalem. Once that bottleneck is removed, AMD's ship will sink. Unless there is some new more efficent architecture on the way? Oh wait, that was supposed to be K10.

    AMD got a ~30% boost in performance by putting the MCH on the chip. They should have planned for Intel's same ~30% boost for doing the same thing. AMD doing it first was not revolutionary. Both companies had the option of doing it, Intel opted to wait. Now that Multi-Core/Multi-Sockets demand the bandwidth, it apparently is the time.

    AMD is known for jumping the gun on these types of tech's. They tout them as revolutionary, but really unnecessary at the time. Anyone remember when we HAD to get Athlon 64 for its 64-bit processing - some day?? Who the heck is running Vista 64 on an original Clawhammer? Answer: No One! But at least it was 64-bit ready.

    Let's face it. No matter how much you hate the company that is Intel, they have some pretty fricken smart engineers over there. And they can afford to have a lot of them.
  • 0 Hide
    JAYDEEJOHN , August 18, 2008 4:57 PM
    Better check your specs, 270 watts is ummm tooooo much?
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