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Nvidia: DirectX 11 Won't Define GPU Sales
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Nvidia says that special-purpose software relying on GPGPU will propel GPU sales, not PC gaming.
Are PC games no longer the driving force behind graphics cards? That's the indication Nvidia made Wednesday at the Deutsche Bank Securities Technology Conference, saying that the upcoming DirectX 11 application programming interface (API) will not be what drives future sales. Instead, Nvidia said the graphics market will pocket wads of cash from general purpose computing on graphics processing units (GPGPU). Tools for GPGPU and software taking advantage of the technology will also propel sales, not DirectX 11-driven PC games.
"DirectX 11 by itself is not going be the defining reason to buy a new GPU," said Mike Hard, vice president of investor relations at Nvidia. "It will be one of the reasons. This is why Microsoft is in work with the industry to allow more freedom and more creativity in how you build content, which is always good, and the new features in DirectX 11 are going to allow people to do that. But that no longer is the only reason, we believe, consumers would want to invest in a GPU."
X-Bit Labs points out that Nvidia may have problems, as ATI is about to crank out its Radeon HD 5800-series graphics cards that fully support DirectX 11, and Nvidia is remaining speechless in regards to its DirectX 11-flavored plans. Nvidia's CUDA GPGPU technology is also incompatible with OpenCL and DirectCompute 11 environments, both supported by the Radeon HD 4000 and 5000 series. This could mean to computer enthusiasts that Nvidia is no longer the "technology leader."
But Nvidia doesn't seem phased, and stands firm on its belief that special-purpose software relying on GPGPU will be what drives people to the store, begging for more power, not id Software's Rage or some other PC game with insane requirements. That's too bad, as The Jerk had a special purpose but didn't need a GPGPU.
Source : Tom's Hardware US
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Tell me about CUDA, the "architecture," versus the "CUDA for C" compiler.CUDA is the name of Nvidia’s parallel computing hardware architecture. Nvidia provides a complete toolkit for programming the CUDA architecture that includes the compiler, debugger, profiler, libraries, and other information developers need to deliver production-quality products that use the CUDA architecture. The CUDA architecture also supports standard languages (C with CUDA extensions and Fortran with CUDA extensions) and APIs for GPU computing, such as OpenCL and DirectX Compute. This diagram may help: With OpenCL, you gain the advantage of cross-platform support, but lose automated tools, such as memory management, that are found with CUDA. It seems that as a scientist, you'd want to decrease your startup development costs, but at the same time, you'd want support for multiple platforms. What's the best way to reconcile this challenge? There are certainly compromises that have to be made to provide a cross vendor/platform solution. Nvidia has worked from the beginning with Apple and the OpenCL working group to make sure OpenCL provides a great driver-level API layer for GPU computing, especially for Nvidia hardware. Furthermore, we will certainly provide extensions to further enable Nvidia GPU’s with OpenCL. Nvidia is also constantly improving our C compiler and development environment for Nvidia GPUs. We have a few simple extensions to C in order to enable our GPUs. If Fortran is more your preference, there is a Fortran compiler also available. With the introduction of Microsoft’s Windows 7 this fall, users and developers will have access to the DirectCompute API, which shares many concepts with our C extensions. Nvidia seeded a DirectCompute driver to key developers last December. These are the added advantages to choosing Nvidia hardware; we support all major languages and API’s. Your work with GPUs started in the GeForce 5 era, and we're now several generations later. Obviously, the newer stuff is faster, but what new capabilities have been introduced over this time period (i.e. IEEE-754 compliance)? What can we do now that we couldn't do before? Early programmable GPUs were basic floating point-only programmable processors. No integer or bit operations, no general access to GPU memory, no communication between neighboring processors. The first main innovation was to provide the hardware needed for supporting C, which includes full pointer support and native data types. Another key innovation was the addition of dedicated, on-chip shared memory, which allows processors to intercommunicate and share results, greatly improving the efficiency of the algorithms. In addition, it offered programmers a place to temporarily store and process data close to the processor, rather than going all the way out to off-chip DRAMs. Shared memory improved our signal processing library by 20x over a similar OpenGL implementation. Finally the addition of double-precision floating point hardware also signified a key step toward GPUs as a true high performance computing product, enabling applications that required extended precision numerics. It should also be noted that memory speed and on-board memory size improvements (up to 4GB per processor and 16GB for our Tesla 1U server) has increased the scale of problems an Nvidia GPU can tackle. What about the compiler? What kind of optimizations and innovations have been added over time? Very early on, we recognized that we needed to build a world-class compiler solution. GPU computing programs tend to be much larger, more complex, and benefit from more complex optimization. Our competition (the CPU) had almost 40 years to get it right. Our C compiler is based on technologies from the Edison Design Group, who has been making C compilers for 20 years, and the Open64 compiler core, which was originally designed for the Itanium processor. Our compiler technology, combined with the world-class compiler team we’ve assembled, is a key part of Nvidia’s success. Currently, most GPUs are very fast with single precision math, but less quick with double precision math. Will GPUs still provide "better than CPU" cost/performance if it weren't for the economies of scale? That is, could you make a special double precision-optimized GPU while still keeping costs low? As the market for GPU computing clearly continues to grow, I think you will see more areas invested in double precision arithmetic. Our double precision hardware released last year was only the starting point for what I imagine will be a growing investment in GPU computing from both the industry and Nvidia. What is your impression of Intel's Larabee? AMD's Stream Architecture? Cell? Zii? My view of Larabee is that it is a great validation of what the GPU has achieved and an acceptance of the limitations the CPU. Where CPUs have tried to take a legacy sequential programming model and squeeze out every last bit of parallelism, GPUs were created for 3D rendering, an embarrassingly parallel application. Massive parallelism is a part of the GPU’s core programming model. In the end, it is the accessibility and productivity of a programming model that will take an architecture from a novelty to a success. We are all competing against a mountain of legacy code. We’ve focused on making Nvidia GPUs extremely easy to obtain orders of magnitude speedups with a familiar and simple programming model.
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Tom's Hardware: What makes Dynamic Pictures unique when compared to other generative art forms? San Base: The Dynamic Paintings I'm designing are examples of generative art - an art that has been generated algorithmically by a computer system. There have been many attempts at producing generative art; the history of it goes back to the early days of computer development. Many of these works have used fractals (geometric shapes that at different scales repeat themselves, at least to some degree) and pretty much none of them accounted for more than just basic artistic principles. This is not the case for my Dynamic Paintings. I'm a strong believer that innovation is often born when several drastically different disciplines come together, and I think that being an experienced programmer and an artist gives me an edge. Another big challenge with dynamic pictures has been the inadequate computing power of personal computers to handle advanced algorithms that describe artistic principles of a computer generated painting. My technology uses powerful video cards to generate real-time images that rival most of the conventional contemporary paintings that cost thousands of dollars. This is not something that has been attempted before. Also, being able to generate images in real time enables me to set paintings in motion and create a new experience never seen before. Courtesy: San Base Tom's Hardware: You use graphics cards in your work. Can you tell us what cards you utilize and why? San Base: Many of the modern CPUs are still not powerful enough to generate these images in real time; only the latest developments in programmable video cards (GPUs) have made this technology possible. Instead of using video cards for rendering 3D images like video games do, my technology taps into the video card's raw computing power. Painting algorithms, translated into pixel shaders - programs used by GPUs - painstakingly construct paintings pixel by pixel at any desired resolution with an unprecedented level of detail. This is an example of using video cards for what is called general purpose computing on GPU (GPGPU). The rendering engine is constructed in such a way that we are not limited by the video card's native resolution, so I am able to produce images as big as 80 to 100 Mpixels for printing on a real canvas. Tom's Hardware: What graphics API are you using, and why did you choose to ship screensavers on your website with the DirectX 9 version of the engine? San Base: Currently I use DirectX 9 for the screensavers, but I try to stay API agnostic. In fact, my Dynamic Picture engine supports OpenGL as well. I originally developed an engine using OpenGL and planned to ship it in the screensavers, however I encountered several compatibility problems with it over a wide range of video cards. First of all, OpenGL shading language (GLSL) is slightly differently implemented on Nvidia and ATI (AMD) cards, which caused me some amount of grief to get shaders working equally well on cards from both vendors. The bigger problem was trying to get shaders to run on slightly older shader model 2.x cards. In many cases OpenGL would just switch to software rendering instead of complaining about supported shader capabilities. This wasn't the case for DirectX 9 - it has fairly tight shader specifications and allows you to see shader assembly, which is helpful when you're trying to squeeze every bit of performance and functionality out of shader model 2.x and some lower-end 3.0 cards. In the end, DirectX 9 turned out to be the better choice in terms of broad compatibility and ease of shader development for my screensavers. However, we still keep the OpenGL version around for future cross-platform developments. I use standard C/C++ for the engine and HLSL or GLSL for shader development. Tom's Hardware: You mentioned a GPGPU approach is at the heart of your technology. Are you using any special GPGPU languages, like Brook or CUDA, or some other software developer kit (SDK)? San Base: No, I don't use anything specific to GPGPU implementations in my paintings. The GPGPU is a trend to use GPUs for all kinds of computations and it can be implemented on top of any graphics API that exposes shaders, not just using special GPGPU toolkits. Because my problem is somewhat unique, none of the GPGPU solutions provided a 100% match, which is exactly the reason I decided to write my own engine.
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TH: As I understand it, Adobe is OpenGL-accelerated. I’ve heard nothing from them about Stream. Yet your initial launch info shows Acrobat Reader, Photoshop CS4, After Effects CS4, and Flash 10 all being “Stream-enabled titles.” Can you elaborate on this? AMD: As I mentioned previously, ATI Stream refers to a framework (or environment) for both hardware and software that provides acceleration of tasks outside the usual game rendering or regular video playback acceleration. In the case of the Adobe apps you mentioned, they are enabling the hardware capabilities to accelerate their processing workflow. TH: Hardware acceleration, yes. But that’s not the same thing as Stream acceleration. AMD: Anything that uses GPU acceleration is ATI Stream, be it DirectX, OpenGL, or ATI Stream component. TH: Anything? Isn’t that getting a little too broad and vague? AMD: It is critical for a parallel compute language to be closely integrated with a graphics API. OpenCL will integrate tightly with OpenGL. Another example is DirectX 11, where the compute shaders are closely coupled with the rendering pipeline. In both cases, the rendering API is complimentary to the compute language in either OpenCL or DirectX 11. As parallel compute gets more standardized (with the ratification and release of OpenCL and DirectX Compute Shaders) “ATI Stream” is not defined by what underlying mechanisms are specifically tied to it, but more by what types of activities are being accelerated by the GPU. We tend to look at Stream as the GPU accelerating workloads that are beyond traditional 3D rendering that has previously been associated with GPU processing. Some productivity applications already use more traditional 3D API’s acceleration of certain tasks, hence we view this as an example of Stream processing.



"Nvidia says that special-purpose software relying on GPGPU will propel GPU sales, not PC gaming."
This is as good as admiting defeat.
Poor Nvidia, better fright harder! Keep Ati cards at lower price.
"Nvidia says that special-purpose software relying on GPGPU will propel GPU sales, not PC gaming."This is as good as admiting defeat.
GG Nvidia, it was nice knowing you...
ATI is definitely going to be my next graphics provider now.
Seems a little Radeon biased. Radeon supports OpenCL but not CUDA. NVidia cards support CUDA butnot OpenCL. Why is said as though OpenCL is some huge oversight on NVidia's side but not the reverse? Am I missing something?
I admit the DX11 lack from NVidia is worrisome though.
Nice one Nvidia, say something you aren't developing won't make a big deal and make it sound like other people are wasting their time... Pretty weak move.
Nvidia: "we haven't figured out dx11 yet"
-nuff said
To NVIDIA: Stop puking out crap trash talk and start to make DX11-compatible card!
Who the eff cares about DX11? Games that are compatable with DX10.1 are few and far between. The GPU tech has gotten beyond the games. You'll end up with under-used Raedeon 58xxs with 1 or 2 games that support DX11. Nvidia is going after ATI's mainstream distributor share. They are trying to cut into Dell, HP, Sony to use thier GPGPUs instead of a dx11 no one can utilize. Just like ATI is making DX11 cards to try to cut into the gaming market. Not gonna happen, people just bougt thier GTX series card or thier 4800 card, they aren't gonna upgrade just for DX11 any time soon.
nVidia: We cannot meet DX10 specifications, can you lower them?
nVidia: DX10.1 isn't a large enough upgrade to support.
nVidia: DX11 isn't important.
Seems to me that if nVidia can keep the 2005 market it would be fantastic. They didn't do their R&D, now they are paying for it. My bet is that AMD buys nVidia if they go far enough down. Then AMD can claim gaming.
it appears nvidia doesn't have a direct x 11 gpu yet and is talking out there you know what. of course people buy 500 plus dollar video cards for transcoding video to there hand held devices quicker not to play video games
That reminds me when the guys at Voodoo graphics sneered at nVidia's 32bit color support and said it was just overkill, and 16bits colors were enough.
Since nVidia has been on the other side of that stick, I can only assume their are trying to stall potential buyers and persuade them to wait for their own directx11 cards.
Ohh ya, DX11 is backwards compatible with DX10 and 10.1 like DX10.1 was. It just doesn't make any sense not to support it as the majority of cards now support atleast DX10.
here is how it works out if nvidia can't support opengl then they can't play certain games like emulators based on opengl and will have a real hard time with anything to do with graphics in linux period
Maybe if NVIDIA had produced a new GPU in the last year, the market would look better for them. They haven't had any new technology since the G200 came out, and that was ONE single chip. Meanwhile ATI kicked their butt price/performance wise with the R700 series (which comes in at least 4 variants). And before you mention the the GeForce 9000 series or any GeForce 250 or lower, remember, all of those are based on the G80/G90 series chips.
Anytime you have to reduce your product price 50% or more (as NVIDIA did after the Radeon 4870 came out), indicates a serious over-estimate of value on the part of the company. Add in the heat-induced failures plaguing numerous laptops with IGPs, and the relative failure of the PS3 console (the only latest-gen sporting NVIDIA graphics), and NVIDIA has to do some serious rethinking.
Maybe this comment about DX11 is a product of that rethinking. Maybe they've given up on consumer graphics and really just aim to push GPGPU towards the science and research sector.
Its sort of a shame to see them go. While I switched to ATI with the Radeon 4850, every GPU before that had been a GeForce.
His name is 'Mike Hara', not Mike Hard.. Not sure why everyone is getting that wrong today.
His Bio: http://www.nvidia.com/object/bio_hara.html
VizWorld's correction: : http://www.vizworld.com/2009/09/nv [...] ics-cards/
Why does this sound vaguely familiar to when they said they wouldn't do D3D 10.1?
I'm sure they'll have to do it eventually, but still...
Translated: "We don't have any DirectX 11 silicon, so we're going to say that it really doesn't matter."
Anyone else finds it ironic how AMD is in the place of nVidia against Intel; while it is at Intel's position against nVidia?
Seems a little Radeon biased. Radeon supports OpenCL but not CUDA. NVidia cards support CUDA butnot OpenCL. Why is said as though OpenCL is some huge oversight on NVidia's side but not the reverse? Am I missing something?
Yeah, you are. The two mentioned in the article are supposed to be open standards that anyone could make something compatible with, and therefore anyone making software can use to write software that will simply run as long as the stuff the end user is running is standards compliant. They don't need to worry about what specific stuff is there. Just like most of the time stuff for 64-bit CPU's are mainly written to just the subset of commands that AMD and Intel can both run.
CUDA is just some shit that nVidia made up that only runs on their cards period, and now that an open implementation is coming it will die. Just like ATI's stream stuff which is the same thing, just with ATI only.
Rage doesn't take insane requirements because John Carmack he's THE man and tunes his engines up the wazoo!
Seems a little Radeon biased. Radeon supports OpenCL but not CUDA. NVidia cards support CUDA butnot OpenCL. Why is said as though OpenCL is some huge oversight on NVidia's side but not the reverse? Am I missing something?I admit the DX11 lack from NVidia is worrisome though.
I believe CUDA is a closed nVidia thing, but OpenCL is Open standard anyone can implement, and not working with open standards is a bad thing.
Honestly, I'd feel a bit of sympathy if Nvidia hadnt been the trash talk drama queen of the tech world the last few years.
For the last couple years now, they've had to really flog Cuda and PhisX to cover up their lack of research and development. Now it's finally catching up to them, and then they feed us some stupid crap about how GPGPU computing is more important than gaming.
They're not just losing at this point, they're coming up with real stupid excuses right after finishing their trashtalk.
After their rip off rebranding scheme, their GPU failure issues and overall shoddy buisness practices, I'm finished with Nvidia.
If intel knocks them down to third place in the discrete market with labaree, then good riddance.
does it really matter that they don't have dx 11 cards yet?
The first couple of cards haven't ever been good, even for ati
with dx10 the 3850 and 3870 sucked
does it really matter that they don't have dx 11 cards yet?The first couple of cards haven't ever been good, even for atiwith dx10 the 3850 and 3870 sucked
DX10 and DX11 have alot of similarities. And the 38xx series hardly sucked. It couldnt hold a flame to the GTX2xx series, but it kept up and in many cases passed up the G80/G90 chips, which is what it was designed to do.
are you sure you don't mean the HD 4xxx series Curnel_D?
RIP Nvidia, you will never grace my pc ever again.
"our sources tell us that ATI is about to hand our ass to us on a silver platter, it's not looking good"
-Nvidia
GPGPU is going to take off any minute now, really, lots of specialized applications, well... not really, just some video transcoders, but still, CUDA powered video transcoders are going to propel sales through the roof... Come on shareholders...
let's all buy Nvidia cards so they don't die....
and there's some competition for ATI,
or they'll become the new...Nvidia?
I still play no games that use DX10, so DX11 is no big deal breaker.
are you sure you don't mean the HD 4xxx series Curnel_D?
No. The 48xx series competed with the GTX series pretty well.
I mourned the loss of 3dfx but I won't mourn the loss of Nvidia if they disappear.Go ATI !. Looking forward to the Radeon 5800 cards