Nvidia Points Finger at AMD's Image Quality Cheat
Are there shenanigans under the hood?
Image quality is a somewhat subjective thing, but benchmark results are not. When comparing graphics card performance, you want to try to get the most even test possible.
Nvidia's now pointing the finger at AMD saying that its competitor uses a different image quality setting that boosts benchmark results at the expense of image quality when compared to the GeForce parts.
Nvidia wrote in its nTersectblog:
NVIDIA’s own driver team has verified specific behaviors in AMD’s drivers that tend to affect certain anisotropic testing tools. Specifically, AMD drivers appear to disable texture filtering optimizations when smaller window sizes are detected, like the AF Tester tool uses, and they enable their optimizations for larger window sizes. The definition of “larger” and “smaller” varies depending on the API and hardware used. For example with DX10 and 68xx boards, it seems they disable optimizations with window sizes smaller than 500 pixels on a side. For DX9 apps like the AF Tester, the limit is higher, on the order of 1000 pixels per side. Our driver team also noticed that the optimizations are more aggressive on RV840/940 than RV870, with optimizations performed across a larger range of LODs for the RV840/940.
FP16 Render Observations
In addition to the above recent findings, for months AMD had been performing a background optimization for certain DX9 applications where FP16 render targets are demoted to R11G11B10 render targets, which are half the size and less accurate. When recently exposed publically, AMD finally provided a user visible control panel setting to enable/disable, but the demotion is enabled by default. Reviewers and users testing DX9 applications such as Need for Speed Shift or Dawn of War 2, should uncheck the “Enable Surface Format Optimization” checkbox in the Catalyst AI settings area of the AMD control panel to turn off FP16 demotion when conducting comparative performance testing.A Long and Winding Road
For those with long memories, NVIDIA learned some hard lessons with some GeForce FX and 3DMark03 optimization gone bad, and vowed to never again perform any optimizations that could compromise image quality. During that time, the industry agreed that any optimization that improved performance, but did not alter IQ, was in fact a valid “optimization”, and any optimization that improved performance but lowered IQ, without letting the user know, was a “cheat”. Special-casing of testing tools should also be considered a “cheat”.
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And Nvidia pays MILLIONS to developers to make their cards perform better in games....until the game comes out and AMD update drivers.
I'm no fanboi and like whatever is best bang for the buck....which Nvidia has been winning lately (it seems)....but Nvidias deceptive business decisions/moves REALLY turn me off more than ANYTHING AMD can ever do.
Haters gonna hate.
Who cares?? I just care about the end result. Whatever happens under the hood is fine by me.
Anti-Aliasing QC by nVidia is the biggest cheat. It reduces aliasing but makes the textures way blurrier.
It's just a desperate cry because nVidia lost a lot since Ati/AMD released 5xxx series
Nvidia should be spending their time improving their own products, not delving into AMD's "cheat" drivers. Nvidia is turning the GPU market into some pre election ad campaign...
If I were Nvidia, I would better shut up, because in the game Metro 2033 most of the artifacts in movement lost their Definition and when this objects stops the definition is there again... So is that because the game or because their drivers?? "my card is GTX285 with Core i7 920 CPU"
As long as I get more frames with less money the difference in image quality mentioned here is unnoticable. Ive never really noticed any difference in the new cards when compared to nvidia 4xx cards.
And who in their right mind plays anything dx10 on a screen with less than 500 pixels on the side... And if you have the balls to buy a 68xx card, you most likely have a screen with more than 1000 side pixels...
Lol, whenever Nvidia throws something at AMD, AMD always seems to throw something harder at Nvidia... waiting to see the response
Who cares?? I just care about the end result. Whatever happens under the hood is fine by me.
If you care about the end result, then you should care about this. It is essentially lying to reviewers such as tomshardware who test the products and give benchmark results to assist buyers in choosing which card to go with.
As long as I get more frames with less money the difference in image quality mentioned here is unnoticable. Ive never really noticed any difference in the new cards when compared to nvidia 4xx cards. And who in their right mind plays anything dx10 on a screen with less than 500 pixels on the side... And if you have the balls to buy a 68xx card, you most likely have a screen with more than 1000 side pixels...Lol, whenever Nvidia throws something at AMD, AMD always seems to throw something harder at Nvidia... waiting to see the response
What AMD is doing is lying in benchmarks to appear better. So when the benchmark says you get 5 FPS more than an nvidia card you would actually be getting the same FPS in a real situation. But, if you are told that a certain card is better, which one are you going to buy? These image quality settings are only being done in benchmarks, which is straight up wrong.
Nvidia remind me of North Korea ... run by a small minded despot surrounded by yes men who focus on covering up their own dirty deeds (sinking ships, shelling innocents) , and pointing the bone at the competition, instead of putting out a better product.
So far they have been busted cheating on 3DMark benchmarks, AA / AF filtering, thermal ratings for their GPU's, game benchmarks, and pretty much anything else they can get away with.
If NVidia is whining then you can pretty much assume the following:
Their yeilds are low on their current line of GPU's and as a result profitability is down, and competitively they are being aced in a number of market niches.
These currently include:
Discrete low end
Chipsets (LOL)
Mid range (they don't have the same range currently available)
High end ... did I mention yields?
http://s0.2mdn.net/1592859/15secon [...] 77-drivers
http://www.geek.com/articles/games [...] d-2003069/
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11826
*dons AMD shirt, point in direction of NVIDIA's shenanigans with PhysX*
He called me a name!
Umm... You can actually change the image quality settings in the Control Center. And you can even switch of all performance tweaks. The problem is, Nvidia doesn't allow this in their drivers. So that's why there's never gonna be an apples to apples comparison.
I have been a very content Nvidia owner in the past, but their PR is reaching Repblican Party election campaign lows.
What AMD is doing is lying in benchmarks to appear better. So when the benchmark says you get 5 FPS more than an nvidia card you would actually be getting the same FPS in a real situation. But, if you are told that a certain card is better, which one are you going to buy? These image quality settings are only being done in benchmarks, which is straight up wrong.
Quite untrue. They actually relate to real-world improvements in FPS performance when running a program in a window. It's actually quite important for some people that cannot run full-screen due to other processes going on. That testers don't specify that it's "artifically" improved windowed performance is were the real mistake is, they should run both types of tests.
This is funny Nvidia had noticeable worse graphics in the early years of 2000. This is the pot calling the kettle black. They now have the nerve to pock at ATI for optimizing graphics that no one notices. This is the funny thing I have ever seen a company waste money and resources on.
What AMD is doing is lying in benchmarks to appear better. So when the benchmark says you get 5 FPS more than an nvidia card you would actually be getting the same FPS in a real situation. But, if you are told that a certain card is better, which one are you going to buy? These image quality settings are only being done in benchmarks, which is straight up wrong.
Because benchmarking always tells the whole story...
Dude, it's been ages since I've seen a review talking about image quality. AGES. Tom's hardly does it nowadays (remember those gifs and high res jpegs comparing screenshots?).
Anyway, like yebornah said, CCC has a slider for texture and mipmapping quality (was it mipmapping? XD). I like it so much against nVidia's complicated way of doing things. Have you seen the profiling in nVidia's drivers? Gosh! KISS nVidia, KISS.
Cheers!
It's actually the other way around. Nvidia is just trying to pin it on ATI. It's been known for years that ATI image quality is better. Nvidia plays a nasty game for sure. They also throttle the new cards at idle so you can't use the cards with any 3D modeling program.
I don't care what GPU i have in my rig as long as it provides good frame rate AND good image quality, cheating in a benchmark like this is wrong.
Its like saying look our car does average 120mhp while the competition only average 110mhp... not telling you run your test on a straight road while the competitions car had to run at a mixed road with extra turns.
This IS wrong - Negative one point to Ati for this!
Does this mean nvda is trying to figure out how ati is performing better?
This reminds of the same lame tit-for-tat arguments about image quality, benchmarks, and driver tweeks between nVidia and ATI from 3-4 years ago. I suppose now nVidia has reverted back to infantile accusations to make excuses for their being on the losing end of the gpu wars.
Meh, whatever...both nVidia and ATI/AMD are making kick-a$s gpu's nowadays and not sure why nVidia is resorting to these attack tactics.
Nevertheless, I still want that $78 HD5670 from Digital Alliance. DirectX 11 at an affordable price. Sorry nVanboys, but nVidia just can't cut it...
i will say now what i have said before, ATI can not keep up with FERMI
rantoc is obviously a narrow minded person and an obvious fanboy appart from that who cares? nVidia is doing so poorly right now that they are trying to take ANY shot at AMD as little as it can be, seeing how AMD was dominating and is easily keeping up on the GPU end of the market while they also have intel on their asses on the CPU end. If you ask me AMD seems to be doing a great job. Btw I have owned only ONE AMD/ATI card in any of my rigs and its the current 5850 and it is by far better then anything nvidia had to offer, I still believe it is
Nevertheless, I still want that $78 HD5670 from Digital Alliance. DirectX 11 at an affordable price. Sorry nVanboys, but nVidia just can't cut it...
For me it can and I am not a nvanboy. It actually sounds like you are an AMD/ATI fanboy more than anything. Sorry to burst your self righteous bubble. I think you guys are terrible on deciding a graphics card. I stick with Nvidia because nothing has gone wrong so far and I doubt anything will in the future. I don't get the harsh criticism and also it seems as if Nvidia cards are RATED HIGHER ON THE QUALITY CHART over AMD's graphics cards if you look at user feedback. Time for AMD fanboys to get off their high horse. If I like an AMD card ill buy an AMD card if I like a nvidia card then so be it will buy a Nvidia card. I won't be presuaded by a view fanboys opinions just because they had 1 lousy card die on them. Cards die, AMD cards die, Nvidia cards die, Matrox cards die, Lots of PCB's eventually die. Quit trying to overclock it and you might be better off.
rantoc is obviously a narrow minded person and an obvious fanboy appart from that who cares? nVidia is doing so poorly right now that they are trying to take ANY shot at AMD as little as it can be, seeing how AMD was dominating and is easily keeping up on the GPU end of the market while they also have intel on their asses on the CPU end. If you ask me AMD seems to be doing a great job. Btw I have owned only ONE AMD/ATI card in any of my rigs and its the current 5850 and it is by far better then anything nvidia had to offer, I still believe it is
He is narrow minded? Go out and buy a GTX580 and maybe then you will see Nvidia has better to offer at superb quality (Buy EVGA and maybe you won't screw yourself over) Sorry it sounds like you only buy AMD/Ati cards and you call him narrow minded? I am not a fanboy but benchmarks prove the GTX580 beats the 5850 hands down. On the other hand if you want matched/better performance on the AMD side go for a 5970.. He was being neutral and you called him a fanboy. Where did you got to school? Must not have taught you the definition of neutral. I agree this is shady of AMD as some people do buy graphics cards based off benchmarks and hearsay. Oh and before you go calling me a fanboy I was actually looking at a 6850/6870 and comparing it to the gtx460 and gtx470. Both are about equal in performance to each other so buying either would result in the same thing depending on which company. For AMD id go XFX or Nvidia Id go evga.
@jasonpwns: Dude, I was talking about the PRICE. I'd go with whichever cheaper. That's why I mentioned the price and manufacturer. As per NOW, there's no nVidia offering with DirectX 11 with the performance of the 5670 and the price from DA. Drop the flame bait, man. It ain't cool.
pot meet kettle
I love how people argue about ATI and nvidia in an attempt to prove their company is more "righteous". They'll both take your money either way, giant corporations are never ethical anyways, but the product that suits you best.
Nice to know that when I buy an nVidia product, i've spent a certain percentage of my money on that GPU that went towards studying and analyzing the competitors product and drivers versus making the product that I purchased better.
@jasonpwns: Dude, I was talking about the PRICE. I'd go with whichever cheaper. That's why I mentioned the price and manufacturer. As per NOW, there's no nVidia offering with DirectX 11 with the performance of the 5670 and the price from DA. Drop the flame bait, man. It ain't cool.
And you need directx11 right now why? I can guarantee that the 5670 will stutter in most directx11 games if there are any mainstream ones even out now. By the time directx11 becomes widespread the 5670 will be nearly a low end card.
rantoc is obviously a narrow minded person and an obvious fanboy appart from that who cares? nVidia is doing so poorly right now that they are trying to take ANY shot at AMD as little as it can be, seeing how AMD was dominating and is easily keeping up on the GPU end of the market while they also have intel on their asses on the CPU end. If you ask me AMD seems to be doing a great job. Btw I have owned only ONE AMD/ATI card in any of my rigs and its the current 5850 and it is by far better then anything nvidia had to offer, I still believe it is
Any corporation with any self regard will always try to make their product shine but cheat in a benchmark that some customers use as their main metric for a products performance is morally wrong. It only fools their customers into thinking the product in a real-world scenario would perform better than it really does since the special optimizations are strangely gone. So before lecturing anyone about fanboyism please watch yourself in the mirror before pointing fingers at anyone because you seem to enjoy purchase hardware based on false information and that surely smells like fanboi'ism to me!
Nvidia is losing all image quality benchmarks to AMD and so what they do is try to tarnish the competition. Typical nvidia.